2020-2021 England Referee Appointments (EPL+) [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Aug 28, 2020.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    For many professionals, when going unchecked, it is not that they intentionally 'murder' but that they don't care.

    The 'reducers', the 'ball or man can get past, but not both', the vintage Italian cynicism.

    Then there is another category who with a rush of blood to the head don't think about what they do. In a pumped up local derby.



    Finally, one of the major reasons why Cristiano Ronaldo and others left the league a decade ago was the relative lack of protection.
     
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  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay, maybe we aren’t that far apart. I can agree with most of this and everything in your subsequent most. I just don’t think any of that is necessarily contradictory to what was said by Green. The only hang up seems to be the semantics of what a “starfish jump” is. I would posit a starfish jump can be reckless or worse even if it’s “well-intended.” It seems like you think the use of the term “starfish jump” is mutually exclusive with a reckless action.
     
  3. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I appreciate your position, but I think we are talking about “kind of” the same thing. I watch mainly English football. The override of more senior officials, at least to me, doesn’t happen in English football.
     
  4. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Don’t need to answer me, @MassachusettsRef. I got your answer already. I appreciate your answers. I’m just catching up.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think the technique has degenerated a bit over time. Originally the starfish jump was this:

    [​IMG]

    Can that still be reckless? Yes, but originally the starfish is not meant to go diving with your feet towards the player.

    Later on also something like this started to qualify as a starfish
    upload_2020-10-17_22-18-59.png

    But I'd say what Pickford did is even a heavily bastardized version of the modern starfish. See replay above.

    Compared to the original and textbook starfish however, the attempt wasn't anywhere near that I believe. Or another standard equipment of goalkeeping.

    N.B. is it possible to punish these assaults in hindsight?
     
  6. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    I think you've made yourself quite clear, somewhere between your 4th and 5th post.

    You give this red card and you're telling keepers they can't defend their goal. Goodluck with that. The only reason we're talking about this is because of the injury, which is not how we judge red cards. It's yellow.
     
  7. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    How about Sian Massey getting grabbed by the neck by Aguero? I think that's a red card, anyone got a reason why it's not?

    https://streamja.com/MBONl
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #258 MassachusettsRef, Oct 17, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
    I know this is your typical schtick so I won’t engage too much. But others will undoubtedly take you seriously so I’ll just say you’re completely wrong and the only reason this wasn’t a red card is it was because a goalkeeper. It was knee high, late, way too forceful and a textbook red card. Saying this was necessary to defend the goal is demonstrably false.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So this needs to be addressed more severely than Pickford’s tackle? Okay.

    It’s not a red because she didn’t feel assaulted or offended/abused/insulted by the gesture. Also, if she does call the referee’s attention and Aguero is sent off, she’s a worldwide focus for a week. Better to let the league fine or reprimand unless, again, she truly felt assaulted. And that’s a pretty high bar that is difficult to say was cleared here.
     
  10. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    Former England Number 1 has weighed in and said this is a standard keeper move. Yes, I agree the only reason this isn't a red card, and shouldn't be a red card is it was a keeper. Keepers are more exposed, referees have decided a long time ago that they require more defending than other players. I don't think anymore needs to be said on that subject, it's not changing.
     
  11. mfw13

    mfw13 Member

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Any thoughts on the PK awarded to Man United in their match against Newcastle? It ended up getting saved, so didn't have an impact on the match outcome, but I thought it was a very soft call (no call on the field, PK given via VAR) that was not a "clear and obvious error".

    Rashford had lost control of the ball and was moving away from goal....to me that was incidental contact that arguably wasn't even a foul.
     
  12. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    You don't know how she feels about it. This isn't grabbing an official by the arm, or by the shirt (Oliver Di Maria) this is controlling someone by grabbing their neck in an aggressive manner and it is certainly confrontational and non-consensual. He's saying "I have power over you." But hey when you're a star they let you do it.
     
  13. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I must just have more respect for her than you do. If she felt assaulted, she should have done something about it, and she didn’t. I give her credit for being able to make that judgment. And nothing in her body language suggests she found the contact anything other than annoying. (Nor did he control her in any way; she shrugged him away.)
     
  14. jasonakramer

    jasonakramer Member

    Apr 27, 2016
    I think this is the key. This gesture reads totally different with a woman referee. I don't think it's a red card on the field, because as I think MassRef says elsewhere in here, she then becomes the focus of the game and discussion for the week (which is completely unfair to her, but that's the way it is).

    But I think EPL needs to come down hard on this behavior, because it's incredibly sexist and can't be allowed.
     
  15. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm fine with no red card there, but would have liked to see at least a yellow. Of course, I've always been in the camp that players are consistently allowed to get away with too much in terms of trying to intimidate referees. And I'm especially annoyed when players argue stupid things that they are clearly wrong about.

    I'd like to see the league issue a fine there--I don't really think it is suspension worthy, but it would be good to have a clear signal from the league not to do that. At the least, I hope the public shaming that Aguero is receiving for this sends a message.
     
  16. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Can someone point me to the section in the Laws where it says "Goalkeepers are allowed to get away with more than field players because they are protecting the goal"? Thanks in advance. :)

    In all seriousness, I now understand why when I call a foul/penalty on a keeper (which I've already done twice this year), people look at me like I have three heads. I feel pretty fluent in the laws of the game, and the only thing I see different about goalkeepers is they wear a different colored shirt than others on the field and can use their hands inside of their defensive penalty area. I don't see anything else distinguishing them.
     
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  17. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    #267 LampLighter, Oct 18, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
    Her shoving him away didn't signal that she wasn't ok with that contact? This is a controlling action that in any other context is assault. If you doubt me, try it sometime. Or maybe some of you should ask your wives or girlfriends if this is ok. Hint: This isn't ok.

    EDIT: What is the difference between this and Di Marias red card from Oliver?
     
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  18. Mirepo

    Mirepo Member

    Nov 3, 2016
    I like how you don’t give her any credit at all and just disregard her agency in the matter. She doesn’t need a white knight. She’s a FIFA AR, so she knows when sexist actions need to be punished. I’m more than willing to bet she’s sent off players and coaches for sexist behavior—I’ve seen it here in the U.S. with our women FIFA referees. You don’t get to that level by being weak. If she truly felt threatened, I have no doubt she would’ve let the referee know.

    Should PGMOL issue a statement and tell referees this isn’t acceptable behavior, or should they “leave the referees alone” because you don’t want governing organizations “giving an opinion on it” and referees should be able to do what they want?
     
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  19. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    At professional levels of soccer there Is a different level of contact between players and officials. We don’t know what was said between the two. However, she didn’t bring it up to the referee and didn’t recommend any sanctions.

    Di Maria’s shirt pull from Michael Oliver was way different. First off it was a 2CT. So not a straight red. Mike Oliver booked him for simulation. Then he cautioned him again for dissent by both gesture (shirt pull) and dissent. Di Maria allegedly called Oliver a “Hijo de puta” as well as grabbed his shirt. So he gave him a second caution.

    Both incidents were unwanted contact. But under different circumstances. If you want to argue a caution based off that incident you may have a bit more of an argument to stand on. The atmosphere was way different too. A highly contested FA cup game vs a random throw in in a league game. A group of players as opposed to one off player.

    I will mention that Latin American players have a different threshold for acceptable contact than English and even Americans counterparts. If you look at it from a cultural standpoint. But I really think we are making something here a non-issue based on the AR’s gender.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    O.K. that is an England number one, here a former Liverpool number one.

    "That was really scandalous. I almost want to say that it kept me awake. Unbelievable what happened there."

    "I was also known to walk through everything. But then I made a loud scream. This was really an attack. You can't go into someone like that with a scissor. He comes flying in at knee height, unbelievable", Westerveld continues, who saw that Pickford was not penalized. "That is completely unimaginable. It was already offside. But if I give the ref an elbow after the game, I also get a red card. This really should have been a red card."

    https://www.voetbalprimeur.nl/nieuw...t-schandalig-en-een-aanslag-op-van-dijk-.html


    Former top referee Mario van de Ende has also weighed in and said it wasn't a standard move.

    You know, a referee who got to the top based on merit rather than being from a big country (not my opinion there) or having nice bosses from the same country.

    "In our days we named this a violation with contempt for death. No discussion possible: this should have been red, or the VAR should have taken action."

    "He should have given Everton an indirect free kick and Pickford red. Of course he can."


    "It is incomprehensible that the VAR does not intervene. Here he should have taken his responsibility. As soon as the English arbiters are on their island, their own rules apply. During international duels the English whistle much more according to the letter of the law."
    https://www.voetbalprimeur.nl/nieuw...den-dit-overtreding-met-doodsverachting-.html
     
  21. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    But the issue is by not acting she's become the focus of the game anyway.

    The problem is that professional referees have become too close and "buddy" with professional players in all leagues.

    Instead of treating their relationship with players as a professional relationship they come and try and be friends/pals with the players and it starts to consciously and subconsciously affect the referees judgment when they do cross the line.

    Its a trickle down affect of not punishing dissent and shutting down players when they cross the line that they eventually keep crossing the line to physical contact.

    Referees in all leagues allow a player to say "oh ******** off" as they are walking away in disgus with a decision. Then they allow players to look them right in the eye and yell "******** off" without repercussion and it just keeps building to aggressive/physical contact because the referees "know the players and know he's not that sort of player."



    Look at Oliver putting his arm around a player. How many of you do that with your coworkers in an office setting?

    You can't tell me next time Digne does something that is in the grey area of violating or crossing the line whether by dissent or a challenge that Oliver won't consciously or subconsciously give him the benefit of the doubt.

    I'm not saying referees need to be completely distant and cold from players and coach and show zero personality, humility and warmth. I'm just saying they need to step back a little bit.

    That's one of the reasons Aguero got away with that.
     
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  22. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I respect your opinion on this not being red, to go into "you must disrespect her agency as a woman and be a white knight if you disagree with her judgement here" is a ridiculous straw man.

    The entire purpose of this forum is to discuss referee decisions (with the benefit of replay, context, multiple camera angles, and time to think). Disagreeing with a referee's decision on a particular play doesn't imply disrespect for that referee.

    Also, we should not accept "the referee was personally hurt or offended" as the determining factor for applying misconduct related to dissent or referee abuse. Some referees have very thin skin, others couldn't be bothered if a player threatened to murder them in their sleep. The referee's job is to judge the players' actions, not how it made them feel.
     
  23. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    So it should've at least been a yellow.
     
  24. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Here’s my thinking. In MLB,even incidental contact with an umpire gets you tossed. In the NFL, It’s at minimum a personal foul and quite possibly ejection. NBA it’s at minimum a technical foul. No gray area. If you touch, it’s going to be penalized.
     
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I would *like*that to be the standard. And I think outside of the professional game, it’s pretty close to that in soccer. But this is a professional game, and it hasn’t been the standard. I’d have no problem with discipline here, but I think she can take care of it. If she—who was right there— thought the player needed to be cautioned or sent off, she would have said so through the mics. The ARs I work with often need me to protect them in a case like this; at this level, I don’t think she needs the ref to jump in unless she asks him to.
     
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