2019 MLS Week 24 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by rh89, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    08/14/19
    Orlando City vs Sporting Kansas City
    Exploria Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Eduardo Mariscal
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Ricardo Salazar
    AVAR: Kyle Longville

    Minnesota United vs Colorado Rapids
    Allianz Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Eric Boria
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Rubiel Vazquez
    VAR: Joe Dickerson
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Real Salt Lake vs Seattle Sounders
    Rio Tinto Stadium (10PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: Jeffrey Greeson
    4TH: Alex Chilowicz
    VAR: Malik Badawi
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    LA Galaxy vs FC Dallas
    Dignity Health Sports Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Apolinar Mariscal
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Tim Ford
    AVAR: Cameron Blanchard

    Portland Timbers vs Chicago Fire
    Providence Park (11PM ET)
    REF: Silviu Petrescu
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Micheal Barwegen
    4TH: Farhad Dadkho
    VAR: Jon Freemon
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    08/17/19

    New York Red Bulls vs New England Revolution
    Red Bull Arena (7PM ET)
    REF: Christopher Penso
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: Philippe Briere
    4TH: Luis Guardia
    VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AVAR: Jose Da Silva

    FC Cincinnati vs New York City FC
    Nippert Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Kevin Broadley
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Columbus Crew vs Toronto FC
    MAPFRE Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Ramy Touchan
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Rubiel Vazquez
    VAR: Alan Kelly
    AVAR: Diego Blas

    Montreal Impact vs FC Dallas
    Saputo Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Yusri Rudolf
    VAR: Ricardo Salazar
    AVAR: Thomas Supple

    Chicago Fire vs Philadelphia Union
    SeatGeek Stadium (8PM ET)
    REF: Joe Dickerson
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: TJ Zablocki
    4TH: Dave Gantar
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Eric Boria

    Minnesota United vs Orlando City
    Allianz Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Claudiu Badea
    AR2: Chris Elliott
    4TH: Allen Chapman
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    Sporting Kansas City vs San Jose Earthquakes
    Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Cameron Blanchard

    Houston Dynamo vs Colorado Rapids
    BBVA Stadium (9PM ET)
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    LA Galaxy vs Seattle Sounders
    Dignity Health Sports Park (10PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Jason White
    4TH: Mark Allatin
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Real Salt Lake vs Los Angeles FC
    Rio Tinto Stadium (10PM ET)
    REF: Baldomero Toledo
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Kyle Longville
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    Vancouver Whitecaps vs D.C. United
    BC Place (10PM ET)
    REF: Tim Ford
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Pierre-Luc Lauziere
    VAR: Alex Chilowicz
    AVAR: Mauricio Navarro

    08/18/19

    Portland Timbers vs Atlanta United
    Providence Park (10PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Eduardo Mariscal
    4TH: Elijio Arreguin
    VAR: Alex Chilowicz
    AVAR: Rene Parra
     
  2. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Interesting. 4 of the 5 referees for the Wednesday games also have a weekend game. But no Alan Kelly of Allen Chapman CRs either day. Rest week or doghouse?
     
  3. Scrabbleship

    Scrabbleship Member

    May 24, 2012
    What have they done to be in the doghouse?
     
  4. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Kelly had the NYCFC throw in/corner incident. Don't know about Chapman. But could just be a rest week.
     
  5. GearRef

    GearRef Member

    Manchester City
    United States
    Jan 2, 2018
    La Grange Park, Illinois
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I feel like if PRO was going to make a “statement” by sitting Kelly out it would have been a while ago. No clue on Chapman, you’re probably right saying it’s a rest week.
     
  6. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I can't say for sure, based on shuffling assignments, I think Chapman picked up a minor injury and needed a couple weeks rest.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Toledo and Sibiga both had situations where players seemed sure that VAR would alter a call related to handling.

    Toledo’s changed a DGH red penalty to a dropped ball; from the very start, despite being shown red the offending player didn’t seem concerned. And he was right. He ended up staying as the ball didn’t hit his arm.

    Sibiga’s was about changing a penalty to a DFK coming out. More protest here—mostly because Seattle players cannot possibly be as sure something did happen as the RSL player could be that something didn’t, I suppose—but still ended up with a reversal, too. But on that point, the fouled player (who was guilty of the handling) never really looked like he thought the PK call would be upheld.

    Some of the first instances where I can remember the mere presence of VAR unequivocally helping to quell dissent and manage players.
     
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  8. Baka_Shinpan

    Baka_Shinpan Member

    Mar 28, 2011
    Between the posts
    Club:
    Vegalta Sendai
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Soo...about that no PK call in Portland - Atlanta...
     
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  9. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For me it's a penalty. If, and that's a big if because I've only seen one camera angle which does NOT support this argument, there was a slight touch on the ball, I can see why it wouldn't be clear and obviously wrong to allow play to continue. PRO literally said as much in their latest Inside Video Review and/or Definitive Angle article.


    I think it was a missed call. Whether or not it was a missed review isn't something I can say comfortably at this time. Mainly, I'm trying to figure out the best way to tell Bobby Boswell to F off after his twitter comments concerning Rockwell tonight.
     
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  10. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Wayne Rooney being Wayne Rooney here as he berates the 4O after being substituted. Alas, nothing will happen.

     
  11. Baka_Shinpan

    Baka_Shinpan Member

    Mar 28, 2011
    Between the posts
    Club:
    Vegalta Sendai
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    He is just sick of the show that is DC United.
     
  12. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    It's really tough, because I'm not sure if it's a foul/no foul, and if a foul, where the foul occurs (inside or outside the area). Options here from Nothing to yellow+PK to DOGSO red+DFK. Feel like we got a fortunate call there.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think this is all correct. I wonder if PRO is going to publicly show all the relevant angles here. They usually haven't on incidents that could have had VAR intervention but didn't. There have been a couple exceptions, but given Atlanta won anyway there may not be too much appetite to call more attention to this.

    Barring a good aerial angle from behind that clearly shows a significant touch on the ball, I don't understand how Villarreal doesn't call this in real-time. It looks, feels and smells like a penalty. My instinct would be to call this and then allow VAR to tell me I got it wrong, rather than the other way around. But maybe he had the perfect angle and made the perfect call. I doubt it, but it's possible. Hopefully we find out one way or the other.

    After that, though... first, it can't be Rockwell's call. He can--and probably was--telling Villarreal if he had a conclusive suggestion either way. But no way he's making that call on his own when it's in the middle of the field. VAR all comes down to what you've pointed out... if there's no touch on the ball, I find the lack of intervention baffling. If there is a touch, we go back to what PRO said last week, which is that any touch "significantly raises the bar" for what a clear error is. So, if there was a slight touch, PRO has to support the lack of VAR intervention.
     
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  14. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The fact I had no idea who Bobby Boswell was until reading this thread provides the context for what I feel about his opinion of a World Cup AR.
     
  15. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    At a certain point, referees have to help themselves and not stand there and take it like you're someone's bitch.

    You can't just ask the league to step in and do the referee's job for them.

    The 4th is a professional referee, not a first year referee in his first game.

    Have some courage and tell Rooney to knock it off and tell him to "not talk to me like that" or some combination and if he continues call the referee over and tell him to caution him or send him off.

    Considering he is off the field and already substituted out a send-off would be appropriate.
     
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  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm drawing a partial blank, but wasn't there an incident 7-8 years ago with another marquee player who did something exactly like this? Essentially berate the FO with foul language for absolutely no reason (at least nothing the FO had to do with) and it all got caught on camera? I'm thinking the FO was Kevin Terry Jr. And if I recall correctly, MLS or PRO said afterward they wanted a red card. I just can't remember the player or team.

    Also, if anyone thinks there isn't a PR problem with referees, check out the headline and lede for the ESPNFC coverage:

    https://www.espn.com/soccer/dc-united/story/3924442/rooney-clashes-with-refblasts-mls-travel-plans

    "Clashes with ref."

    "Involved in furious altercation with fourth official."

    Well, um, no. He verbally abused a referee without any provocation.
     
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  17. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    You're exactly right. The 4th was Kevin Terry Jr. and the player I think he was a San Jose player (a player with a surname Hernandez, I believe).

    I think the game was in Dallas

    I think he just told Terry "******** you" or something of that nature and it was caught on camera and Terry did nothing.
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    San Jose rings a bell. And maybe it wasn't a "marquee" player. So you probably have this correct.

    I'm remembering that another issue there was that the abuse started while the player was on the field, which made things a lot trickier because intervention would have led to 11 v 10. But time might be altering my perception on that point.

    Regardless, I know the relevant governing body later said it should have been a red. Of course, that's always easy for the governing body to say after the red isn't given.
     
  19. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2013...pa-modou-kah-run-instant-replay?autoplay=true

    Took me some digging and I found it.

    The incident is at the 3:50 minute mark way back in 2013.

    Hernandez wasn't coming out, he was actually coming in and just yells "******** you." to Terry for seemingly no apparent reason. Still just bizarre and so disrespectful and probably a microcosm of why Terry never made into the middle as an MLS referee.

    Again, the Rooney incident and this Terry incident start and end with referees failing to have the courage to stand up for themselves.

    You can't ask the league to fight battles like that for you.
     
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  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's it! I had that detail wrong but I also was pretty sure he hadn't been just substituted. So this could have been a really easy red (as it would have kept things at 11 v 11).
     
  21. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    Here's the thing about this clip which I think refs need more training with. You see the FO place his hand about where you'd strike for a liver shot. Rooney has no defense and the FO could've sent him to the turf. Referees need to be better trained in how to strike with a fist, probably need wraps on their hands before games as well. Couple livers get crushed, you're looking at a lot more respect!


    ...kidding of course.
     
  22. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    You can ask the league to support the referees when the do take stands. Obviously the refs don't feel like the league will support them at all. As they didn't when one of their referees got Doxxed because a Fan didn't like their correct call.

    The refs aren't cowards, they're conditioned to be treated that way, and they suspect the league which hasn't supported them in the past, won't support them in the future.
     
  23. WrathofDog

    WrathofDog Member

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Mar 12, 2019
    Pity has been taken down in the box in 3 straight games. Against NYFC, PRO said they would have liked VAR to have stepped in. The second was in the Campeones Cup, where VAR did step in and the PK was awarded. The third was against Portland last night and again VAR didn't step in.



    Even if there is a slight touch of the ball by the defender, the defender's trailing leg pretty clearly trips Pity he still has a play on the ball.

    It appears that because the ref was trailing play by 40 yards left the call to his AR and once again MLS VAR didn't step in to have him take a look.

    What's the point of VAR if it's not going to be used?
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. I think this is a penalty and, as I implied above, I think this is an easier call than no-call.

    I also think you're jumping to conclusions here. Villarreal would not necessarily cede this call to Rockwell. Rockwell might intervene discretely (meaning over comms) if he was 100% sure it was a foul, but he likely can't be from his vantage point AND he wouldn't intervene if Villarreal felt it was not a foul and was proactively saying so.

    The distance, while unfortunate, would not be an automatic reason for this to become Rockwell's call. It might make it more likely that Villarreal would ask for help, but remember this is in the middle of the park so Rockwell is looking at it from 33-34 yards or so. Your point about Villarreal being 40 yards behind play is only a small exaggeration (using all available video and the relevant markings on the field, it's probably in the low to mid 30 range). The bottom line is that Villarreal and Rockwell are around the same distance from this play, they are just looking at it from different angles.

    Yes. Like with the initial call, given everything I've seen I can't comprehend how Chilowicz got to "check complete."

    Are you new here?

    I kid to an extent, but it got actively used (OFR) five times this week, which is a good amount when you compare it to other competitions. But yeah, the erratic implementation is frustrating. As some of us have said all along, the "technology" is still only as good as the humans working it. In situations like this, at best it's a second set of eyes rather than technology. If those eyes make the same incorrect subjective decision that the referee makes, there's nothing that can be done.

    In the end, this seems like a mistake by the CR compounded by a mistake from a VAR. @ManiacalClown smartly points out that a public verdict on the SKC incident last week might have played a role in making a VAR intervention less likely here. We'll have to wait a few days to find out if there's anything we're missing.
     
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  25. drummer68

    drummer68 Member

    Sep 17, 2005
    I know I'm gonna show my age on this one, but...

    does anyone remember the Lothar Matthaeus-Chip Reed blowup from 2001? I saw a video of the thing at one of the regional preseason clinics Chicago put on, back in the day. It was just so bad, all the way around. Matthaeus just ripped Reed in the corner for a good 15-20 seconds, delaying a corner kick to do so. Reed was cornered and had nowhere to go. He just stood there and took it, while repeatedly saying something like "take the kick, Lothar." Wish I could find a video of it, but ESPN wrote about it...

    https://www. espn.com/soccer/mls/2000/20000419/recap/kannym.html
     

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