08/14/19 Orlando City vs Sporting Kansas City Exploria Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Robert Sibiga AR1: Frank Anderson AR2: Eduardo Mariscal 4TH: Marcos DeOliveira VAR: Ricardo Salazar AVAR: Kyle Longville Minnesota United vs Colorado Rapids Allianz Field (8PM ET) REF: Drew Fischer AR1: Eric Boria AR2: Logan Brown 4TH: Rubiel Vazquez VAR: Joe Dickerson AVAR: Craig Lowry Real Salt Lake vs Seattle Sounders Rio Tinto Stadium (10PM ET) REF: Armando Villarreal AR1: Nick Uranga AR2: Jeffrey Greeson 4TH: Alex Chilowicz VAR: Malik Badawi AVAR: TJ Zablocki LA Galaxy vs FC Dallas Dignity Health Sports Park (10:30PM ET) REF: Ismail Elfath AR1: Adam Wienckowski AR2: Apolinar Mariscal 4TH: Alejandro Mariscal VAR: Tim Ford AVAR: Cameron Blanchard Portland Timbers vs Chicago Fire Providence Park (11PM ET) REF: Silviu Petrescu AR1: Ian Anderson AR2: Micheal Barwegen 4TH: Farhad Dadkho VAR: Jon Freemon AVAR: Joshua Patlak 08/17/19 New York Red Bulls vs New England Revolution Red Bull Arena (7PM ET) REF: Christopher Penso AR1: Nick Uranga AR2: Philippe Briere 4TH: Luis Guardia VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr AVAR: Jose Da Silva FC Cincinnati vs New York City FC Nippert Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Nima Saghafi AR1: Corey Parker AR2: Felisha Mariscal 4TH: Kevin Broadley VAR: Jorge Gonzalez AVAR: Craig Lowry Columbus Crew vs Toronto FC MAPFRE Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Ramy Touchan AR1: Ian Anderson AR2: Matthew Nelson 4TH: Rubiel Vazquez VAR: Alan Kelly AVAR: Diego Blas Montreal Impact vs FC Dallas Saputo Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Ted Unkel AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt AR2: Andrew Bigelow 4TH: Yusri Rudolf VAR: Ricardo Salazar AVAR: Thomas Supple Chicago Fire vs Philadelphia Union SeatGeek Stadium (8PM ET) REF: Joe Dickerson AR1: Brian Dunn AR2: TJ Zablocki 4TH: Dave Gantar VAR: Younes Marrakchi AVAR: Eric Boria Minnesota United vs Orlando City Allianz Field (8PM ET) REF: Jair Marrufo AR1: Claudiu Badea AR2: Chris Elliott 4TH: Allen Chapman VAR: Edvin Jurisevic AVAR: Jozef Batko Sporting Kansas City vs San Jose Earthquakes Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET) REF: Drew Fischer AR1: Brian Poeschel AR2: Jeremy Kieso 4TH: Alejandro Mariscal VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero AVAR: Cameron Blanchard Houston Dynamo vs Colorado Rapids BBVA Stadium (9PM ET) REF: Ismail Elfath AR1: Frank Anderson AR2: Cory Richardson 4TH: Silviu Petrescu VAR: Sorin Stoica AVAR: Jonathan Johnson LA Galaxy vs Seattle Sounders Dignity Health Sports Park (10PM ET) REF: Robert Sibiga AR1: Kyle Atkins AR2: Jason White 4TH: Mark Allatin VAR: Kevin Stott AVAR: Fabio Tovar Real Salt Lake vs Los Angeles FC Rio Tinto Stadium (10PM ET) REF: Baldomero Toledo AR1: Logan Brown AR2: Kyle Longville 4TH: Marcos DeOliveira VAR: Chico Grajeda AVAR: Joshua Patlak Vancouver Whitecaps vs D.C. United BC Place (10PM ET) REF: Tim Ford AR1: Jeremy Hanson AR2: Adam Garner 4TH: Pierre-Luc Lauziere VAR: Alex Chilowicz AVAR: Mauricio Navarro 08/18/19 Portland Timbers vs Atlanta United Providence Park (10PM ET) REF: Armando Villarreal AR1: Corey Rockwell AR2: Eduardo Mariscal 4TH: Elijio Arreguin VAR: Alex Chilowicz AVAR: Rene Parra
Interesting. 4 of the 5 referees for the Wednesday games also have a weekend game. But no Alan Kelly of Allen Chapman CRs either day. Rest week or doghouse?
Kelly had the NYCFC throw in/corner incident. Don't know about Chapman. But could just be a rest week.
I feel like if PRO was going to make a “statement” by sitting Kelly out it would have been a while ago. No clue on Chapman, you’re probably right saying it’s a rest week.
While I can't say for sure, based on shuffling assignments, I think Chapman picked up a minor injury and needed a couple weeks rest.
Toledo and Sibiga both had situations where players seemed sure that VAR would alter a call related to handling. Toledo’s changed a DGH red penalty to a dropped ball; from the very start, despite being shown red the offending player didn’t seem concerned. And he was right. He ended up staying as the ball didn’t hit his arm. Sibiga’s was about changing a penalty to a DFK coming out. More protest here—mostly because Seattle players cannot possibly be as sure something did happen as the RSL player could be that something didn’t, I suppose—but still ended up with a reversal, too. But on that point, the fouled player (who was guilty of the handling) never really looked like he thought the PK call would be upheld. Some of the first instances where I can remember the mere presence of VAR unequivocally helping to quell dissent and manage players.
For me it's a penalty. If, and that's a big if because I've only seen one camera angle which does NOT support this argument, there was a slight touch on the ball, I can see why it wouldn't be clear and obviously wrong to allow play to continue. PRO literally said as much in their latest Inside Video Review and/or Definitive Angle article. I think it was a missed call. Whether or not it was a missed review isn't something I can say comfortably at this time. Mainly, I'm trying to figure out the best way to tell Bobby Boswell to F off after his twitter comments concerning Rockwell tonight.
Wayne Rooney being Wayne Rooney here as he berates the 4O after being substituted. Alas, nothing will happen. You think Wayne Rooney is sick of #MLS officiating? "Every f**king game. Every f**king game." #DCU #MLS pic.twitter.com/BRnXOnLpFs— Pablo Iglesias Maurer (@MLSist) August 18, 2019
It's really tough, because I'm not sure if it's a foul/no foul, and if a foul, where the foul occurs (inside or outside the area). Options here from Nothing to yellow+PK to DOGSO red+DFK. Feel like we got a fortunate call there.
I think this is all correct. I wonder if PRO is going to publicly show all the relevant angles here. They usually haven't on incidents that could have had VAR intervention but didn't. There have been a couple exceptions, but given Atlanta won anyway there may not be too much appetite to call more attention to this. Barring a good aerial angle from behind that clearly shows a significant touch on the ball, I don't understand how Villarreal doesn't call this in real-time. It looks, feels and smells like a penalty. My instinct would be to call this and then allow VAR to tell me I got it wrong, rather than the other way around. But maybe he had the perfect angle and made the perfect call. I doubt it, but it's possible. Hopefully we find out one way or the other. After that, though... first, it can't be Rockwell's call. He can--and probably was--telling Villarreal if he had a conclusive suggestion either way. But no way he's making that call on his own when it's in the middle of the field. VAR all comes down to what you've pointed out... if there's no touch on the ball, I find the lack of intervention baffling. If there is a touch, we go back to what PRO said last week, which is that any touch "significantly raises the bar" for what a clear error is. So, if there was a slight touch, PRO has to support the lack of VAR intervention.
The fact I had no idea who Bobby Boswell was until reading this thread provides the context for what I feel about his opinion of a World Cup AR.
At a certain point, referees have to help themselves and not stand there and take it like you're someone's bitch. You can't just ask the league to step in and do the referee's job for them. The 4th is a professional referee, not a first year referee in his first game. Have some courage and tell Rooney to knock it off and tell him to "not talk to me like that" or some combination and if he continues call the referee over and tell him to caution him or send him off. Considering he is off the field and already substituted out a send-off would be appropriate.
I'm drawing a partial blank, but wasn't there an incident 7-8 years ago with another marquee player who did something exactly like this? Essentially berate the FO with foul language for absolutely no reason (at least nothing the FO had to do with) and it all got caught on camera? I'm thinking the FO was Kevin Terry Jr. And if I recall correctly, MLS or PRO said afterward they wanted a red card. I just can't remember the player or team. Also, if anyone thinks there isn't a PR problem with referees, check out the headline and lede for the ESPNFC coverage: https://www.espn.com/soccer/dc-united/story/3924442/rooney-clashes-with-refblasts-mls-travel-plans "Clashes with ref." "Involved in furious altercation with fourth official." Well, um, no. He verbally abused a referee without any provocation.
You're exactly right. The 4th was Kevin Terry Jr. and the player I think he was a San Jose player (a player with a surname Hernandez, I believe). I think the game was in Dallas I think he just told Terry "******** you" or something of that nature and it was caught on camera and Terry did nothing.
San Jose rings a bell. And maybe it wasn't a "marquee" player. So you probably have this correct. I'm remembering that another issue there was that the abuse started while the player was on the field, which made things a lot trickier because intervention would have led to 11 v 10. But time might be altering my perception on that point. Regardless, I know the relevant governing body later said it should have been a red. Of course, that's always easy for the governing body to say after the red isn't given.
https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2013...pa-modou-kah-run-instant-replay?autoplay=true Took me some digging and I found it. The incident is at the 3:50 minute mark way back in 2013. Hernandez wasn't coming out, he was actually coming in and just yells "******** you." to Terry for seemingly no apparent reason. Still just bizarre and so disrespectful and probably a microcosm of why Terry never made into the middle as an MLS referee. Again, the Rooney incident and this Terry incident start and end with referees failing to have the courage to stand up for themselves. You can't ask the league to fight battles like that for you.
That's it! I had that detail wrong but I also was pretty sure he hadn't been just substituted. So this could have been a really easy red (as it would have kept things at 11 v 11).
Here's the thing about this clip which I think refs need more training with. You see the FO place his hand about where you'd strike for a liver shot. Rooney has no defense and the FO could've sent him to the turf. Referees need to be better trained in how to strike with a fist, probably need wraps on their hands before games as well. Couple livers get crushed, you're looking at a lot more respect! ...kidding of course.
You can ask the league to support the referees when the do take stands. Obviously the refs don't feel like the league will support them at all. As they didn't when one of their referees got Doxxed because a Fan didn't like their correct call. The refs aren't cowards, they're conditioned to be treated that way, and they suspect the league which hasn't supported them in the past, won't support them in the future.
Pity has been taken down in the box in 3 straight games. Against NYFC, PRO said they would have liked VAR to have stepped in. The second was in the Campeones Cup, where VAR did step in and the PK was awarded. The third was against Portland last night and again VAR didn't step in. Even if there is a slight touch of the ball by the defender, the defender's trailing leg pretty clearly trips Pity he still has a play on the ball. It appears that because the ref was trailing play by 40 yards left the call to his AR and once again MLS VAR didn't step in to have him take a look. What's the point of VAR if it's not going to be used?
Agreed. I think this is a penalty and, as I implied above, I think this is an easier call than no-call. I also think you're jumping to conclusions here. Villarreal would not necessarily cede this call to Rockwell. Rockwell might intervene discretely (meaning over comms) if he was 100% sure it was a foul, but he likely can't be from his vantage point AND he wouldn't intervene if Villarreal felt it was not a foul and was proactively saying so. The distance, while unfortunate, would not be an automatic reason for this to become Rockwell's call. It might make it more likely that Villarreal would ask for help, but remember this is in the middle of the park so Rockwell is looking at it from 33-34 yards or so. Your point about Villarreal being 40 yards behind play is only a small exaggeration (using all available video and the relevant markings on the field, it's probably in the low to mid 30 range). The bottom line is that Villarreal and Rockwell are around the same distance from this play, they are just looking at it from different angles. Yes. Like with the initial call, given everything I've seen I can't comprehend how Chilowicz got to "check complete." Are you new here? I kid to an extent, but it got actively used (OFR) five times this week, which is a good amount when you compare it to other competitions. But yeah, the erratic implementation is frustrating. As some of us have said all along, the "technology" is still only as good as the humans working it. In situations like this, at best it's a second set of eyes rather than technology. If those eyes make the same incorrect subjective decision that the referee makes, there's nothing that can be done. In the end, this seems like a mistake by the CR compounded by a mistake from a VAR. @ManiacalClown smartly points out that a public verdict on the SKC incident last week might have played a role in making a VAR intervention less likely here. We'll have to wait a few days to find out if there's anything we're missing.
I know I'm gonna show my age on this one, but... does anyone remember the Lothar Matthaeus-Chip Reed blowup from 2001? I saw a video of the thing at one of the regional preseason clinics Chicago put on, back in the day. It was just so bad, all the way around. Matthaeus just ripped Reed in the corner for a good 15-20 seconds, delaying a corner kick to do so. Reed was cornered and had nowhere to go. He just stood there and took it, while repeatedly saying something like "take the kick, Lothar." Wish I could find a video of it, but ESPN wrote about it... https://www. espn.com/soccer/mls/2000/20000419/recap/kannym.html