2019 MLS Week 23 Referee Thread

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by rh89, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    08/08/19
    New York City FC vs Houston Dynamo
    Yankee Stadium (7PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Claudiu Badea
    4TH: Thomas Snyder
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Ian McKay

    08/10/19

    Seattle Sounders vs New England Revolution
    CenturyLink Field (4PM ET)
    REF: Dave Gantar
    AR1: Chris Wattam
    AR2: Micheal Barwegen
    4TH: Kevin Broadley
    VAR: Ricardo Salazar
    AVAR: Jeremy Hanson

    Columbus Crew vs FC Cincinnati
    MAPFRE Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Silviu Petrescu
    AR1: Gianni Facchini
    AR2: Philippe Briere
    4TH: Thomas Snyder
    VAR: Robert Sibiga
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    Toronto FC vs Orlando City
    BMO Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Cory Richardson
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Mark Allatin
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    FC Dallas vs Minnesota United
    Toyota Stadium (8PM ET)
    REF: Alex Chilowicz
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Joe Dickerson
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Sporting Kansas City vs Real Salt Lake
    Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Michael Radchuk
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Chicago Fire vs Montreal Impact
    SeatGeek Stadium (9PM ET)
    REF: Christopher Penso
    AR1: Mike Rottersman
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Drew Fischer
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Kyle Longville

    Colorado Rapids vs San Jose Earthquakes
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9PM ET)
    REF: Tim Ford
    AR1: Jeff Hosking
    AR2: Gjovalin Bori
    4TH: Ramy Touchan
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Peter Balciunas

    Portland Timbers vs Vancouver Whitecaps
    Providence Park (11PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Greg Dopka
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    08/11/19

    Atlanta United vs New York City FC
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (4PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: Sergii Demianchuk
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    Philadelphia Union vs Houston Dynamo
    Talen Energy Stadium (6PM ET)
    REF: Marcos DeOliveira
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Danielle Chesky
    VAR: Drew Fischer
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    D.C. United vs LA Galaxy
    Audi Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Alan Kelly
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Claudiu Badea
    4TH: Luis Guardia
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Los Angeles FC vs New York Red Bulls
    Banc of California Stadium (10PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Jason White
    4TH: Baldomero Toledo
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Eduardo Mariscal
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    According to MLS’ app, the USOC semi tonight had a VAR. I didn’t see that assignment elsewhere. Anyone watch the match and know if VAR was active. If so, that’s kind of a big deal.
     
  3. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Any confirmation of their being VAR? Nothing shows up in ussoccer.gameofficials.net.

    I can't imagine US Soccer would just allow VAR to be thrown in their on a whim.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can’t?

    They shouldn’t. But it would be on brand.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No VAR. Just the MLS app doing MLS app things.
     
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  6. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    For the Romell Quito red card. I noticed that he had stuck around after being sent-off until Sibiga indicated with his hand that Quito should go, tapped his ear, and gave a thumbs up. Is that what we've come to, "I have been sent-off, but I'm not going to leave even though video will clearly see me striking someone in the back of the head."

    Additionally, Sibiga initally shows a yellow and there doesn't appear to be VAR, did Kathryn Nesbitt get on him to change to red?
    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...ity-fc-vs-houston-dynamo/details/video/207605
     
  7. Bradley Smith

    Bradley Smith Member

    Jul 29, 2013
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Dayton Ref repped this.
  8. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hard to say if he was telling Quioto the check was complete, or if he was saying that the VAR will check it, but he still has to leave, at least for now. Probably the former, but hope it was the latter. I don't mind players waiting for a VAR check, but I want them off the field and ready to head up the tunnel. We don't need a mass confrontation on the pitch while the VAR and/or referee are watching replays.
     
  9. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    Can someone help me answer this because I thought there'd be 2 yellows in this USL1 match I'm watching.

    So it's 90th minute with trailing score. Goal kick for team trailing. The other team, as they're getting ready to place the goal kick takes the ball and dribbles it away from the goalkeeper's mark.

    The goalkeeper, of course, goes after the dribbler who's obviously delay the game and the GK shoves the back of the dribbler (not that hard...) and he goes down.

    Yellow card for the GK but none for the delayer.
     
  10. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Here's my best guess what this referee was thinking. There's an argument to be made that what the keeper did was VC and a red card, with a yellow to the opponent for DoG. But that seems unfair, so the referee downgrade both a step to yellow for the keeper and nothing for the delayer. Or he just messed up and should have cautioned both.
     
  11. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Not an impressive SEA-NE match by Gantar....gifted NE two very questionable goals.

    The first was on a corner in the 1st half....a NE attacker picked/obstructed a Seattle defender, allowing a different NE player to come free and score via a header. Gantar initially ruled the goal out on the field (correctly, IMHO), and than reversed himself via VAR review and allowed the goal, even though the foul was clear, and his initial decision was anything but a "clear and obvious error".

    The decision was almost as bad....86th minute, Seattle up 3-2.....NE attacker kicks the ball into the arm of the Seattle defender, which is in a natural position close to the body. Gantar awards a PK for handball anyway.
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #12 MassachusettsRef, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
    I don’t have the energy or desire to debate the handling penalty too much. It’s one of those that can go either way and the defender accepts (and maybe even expects?) the call, so it seems defensible.

    The first goal is incredibly interesting, though. The “foul” Gantar called was not a foul. Not because it wasn’t foul contact, but because it occurred before the ball was in play. So it can’t be a foul. It can only be misconduct. The correct action would have been for Gantar to have New England redo the corner kick after having a word with the attacker.

    But he didn’t do that. He called a foul. He called a foul when the VAR has clear proof of it being wrong. And he didn’t whistle until the ball was in the back of the net. So now you have a “goal” that can be reviewed.

    I genuinely don’t know what the proper outcome is here because I don’t think VAR protocols account for this situation.

    Technically, awarding the goal is probably correct. It’s hard to argue there is a provision where VAR can get you to “corner kick do-over.”

    There probably should be such a provision, precisely because of this situation. But absent one, Gantar is stuck awarding the goal.

    EDIT to add that Gantar could have invented an out by giving the player a yellow card, but that would have been far far far outside the norm of what’s expected in professional soccer that it would have been more suspect than allowing the goal. In reality, this is a situation where VAR objectively made things worse than they would have been. No one would have blinked or really noticed Gantar’s mistake. And no one would expect the technical mistake to result in a goal. But it does and did.
     
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  13. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    I think this also points to an flaw with the LOTG, in that actions which take place in the second(s) immediately preceding the taking of a corner can have a huge influence on the outcome of said corner.

    Imagine a situation where the defender hauls down an attacker just before the ball is struck, but too late for the ref to stop the play....can't award a PK, because it's not a foul.

    Likewise imagine an instance where the attacking player fouls the defending player, thus allowing a goal to be scored (which was the case in this situation), again just before the ball is struck and too late for the ref to stop play.

    The obvious solution (which is why it will never happen) would be for the ball to be considered "in play" from the moment the ref blows his whistle for the restart, not from the moment the ball is actually struck (This logic applies for free kicks as well).
     
  14. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    Timbers wanted a handling PK right before halftime and a Portland player complained quite a bit, trying to get an Unkel at the halftime whistle with no card being shown. I don't watch much MLS -- has this become the status quo to ignore clear disrespect towards the referee?
     
  15. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    Or, expanding the definition of a foul to allow for a foul to occur during the period immediately prior to the ball being put into play. Maybe during the period when a restart is imminent.
     
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  16. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    I can say yes to this but it's not confined to the MLS.
     
  17. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Anyone know what the black band Marrufo and his crew wore on their arms signifies?

    It says “EP.”

    Did someone from PRO pass away?
     
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  18. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    I understand and agree with your point about the Timbers players and coaches overstepping on the handball. I also agree it should not have been called. But the Timbers have had PK handballs called on them both of their past two matches, and so it felt unfair. I think Unkel was aware of that and handled it well.
     
  19. Crewster

    Crewster Member+

    Jan 28, 2005
    Worthington
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Question regarding Cincy v. Columbus. Late in the game, Accam with the ball is breaking through the Cincy defense. He is fouled, but keeps going, as Petrescu plays the advantage. He is then stopped by a second foul further upfield. Petrescu issues yellow cards for both fouls. He then gives the free kick at the spot of the first foul. Shouldn't the kick be given at the more advantageous spot of the second foul?
     
  20. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    El Paso. Jair is from El Paso.
     
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  21. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Marrufo and his family are from El Paso
     
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  22. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Without watching it again, simply based on your explanation I'd say yes. Both yellows appear to be for stopping a promising attack so the only way for the second yellow to happen is if you play advantage through the first, and then you give the second free kick.

    That said, with the injury situation, he may have well lost track of the exact spots.

    Then again, he hasn't exactly been perfect when dealing with free kick position lately. Remember that video review last week where Petrescu gave a free kick for a hold in the lead up to a handling PK? The free kick was taken something like 15 yards out of position and outside of the penalty area.
     
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  23. Thegreatwar

    Thegreatwar Member

    Seacoast United
    May 28, 2015
    New Hampshire
    Also it appeared to be a trip more than a “pick” IMO. If NE#3 didn’t stick his foot out and make contact, there’s no “pick” anywhere near blatant enough to be called.
     
  24. stangspritzring

    stangspritzring Member+

    Apr 3, 2006
    NorMD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the pre-VAR days, if such contact occurred in the run-up to the kick, refs simply blew the whistle for a foul in the box against the attacking team and moved on, because there's seldom a corner kick on which you COULDN'T spot something whistle-worthy. Arguably they could assume the same approach now, and it would be largely transparent to fans, while not meeting the letter of the law. Sometimes trying to meet that letter is more problematic than fudging it.
     
  25. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd


    I get there will be an inherent gap between what is a foul for a penalty kick and a foul coming out even in the age of VAR. It's consistent with the way the sport has historically been officiated.

    But it seems that the gap is getting even bigger and getting more magnified.

    The two goals that were disallowed in Atlanta and in LA for fouls by the attacker on the defenders were correct decisions. I think the one in Atlanta needed to be called as that clearly affected the play. I'm not so sure about the one disallowed in LA. It's a foul in a vacuum, but does it rise to "clear and obvious." It's just two players coming across each other and one happened to be tripped.

    You want to disallow those goals fine, but how are some of the penalty appeals show in Instant Replay above not sent for review or given?

    How is that not a penalty at the end of the game in Atlanta? The PK in Colorado? What more do you need?
     

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