Pre-match: 2019 CONCACAF Gold Cup Group Stage: USA vs Panama

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Sebsasour, Jun 22, 2019.

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  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I don't think he is being "saved." He is the backup. If you look at the cumulative 2019 minutes he has given a set of players, those are the starters. One TFC old fart is being used. The other isn't. You can then make some distinctions based on which subs have kept being called.
     
  2. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

    Dec 15, 1999
    Toscana
    As just a suggestion, can you also include the date of the match in the thread title as well?
     
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  3. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #128 juvechelsea, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
    I didn't acknowledge rotation is unimportant. I think I said in this post and the next one Rotate or suffer. I question whether the ones saying don't rotate played soccer at a very high level where it's literally run out the XI night after night. I am disinterested in maxing group round Ws at the expense of having players rested, as this promotes knockout round Ws that I prefer. I also feel like dodging one opponent for another sounds like loser talk. Winner talk is rest the starters and we will be fresh and kick whoever we line up with Sunday. Cause I am not saying lose tonight, maybe we do, maybe we don't. I am saying don't run the first team into the ground to accomplish it.

    My point re Lovitz, which is one hand other handed in the big picture of squad rotation, true, is that I am not deluding myself that someone who struggled with Panama B and CR C is The Answer to anything. He maybe should see minutes like an inning eating pitcher, to save the legs of the starter. But it's out to lunch to think that a guy who struggled with Panama's experiments is a hidden gem ready for their real team, or who needs to be given a chance because he is sure to flower.
     
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  4. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Subbing out key players and rotating to rest players - are you suggesting that Panama receives better coaching than we do?
     
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  5. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    has there EVER- on any level, in any tournament, anywhere in the world- been a team who actually did the mythical "full rotation"? it seems make believe.
     
  6. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #131 juvechelsea, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
    As I said about Jozy, except in reverse here, people need to check out the minutes GB has distributed and take it seriously. Ream was not in camp cupcake. Since then, he has played 90 in both March games and the two GC games. He played less than full games in the two GC-prep friendlies but started them as well.

    I think we should be shopping the position but that is not the message GB is giving off.

    I think some of the backs could change when people get healthy -- Adams for Lima, Brooks for a CB -- whether it's good or not. Yedlin may even squeeze in there somehow -- again, whether it's good or not. But some of the mids I like who are off or out hurt, Lletget, Holmes, etc......not teacher's pet even if they performed. Sargent was cut. Weah being allowed to go with the U20s is probably close to a cut. Many of the theorized U20s aren't even capped yet.

    I think we are fairly close to what GB intends to do right now, good or ill. Any assumptions Ream is filling a hole, Jozy is being rested.....not what the stats say. The stats say Zardes and Ream start now.
     
  7. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The US women make like 7 changes for the Chile game, which isn't "full," but is damn close.

    English teams do a full XI switch in the League Cup pretty regularly, but I assume you're only asking about international tournaments.
     
  8. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    (1) You're saying this from the perspective of a team that literally ran out the same 11 twice already. Like didn't even rotate. So we are on the third game in 8 days.
    (2) During qualifying we were the only team not to rotate anyone between Panama and Trinidad. You see how that turned out.
    (3) My experience was teams between those two games rotated as many as 4-6 players. Granted, some were clinched already.
    (4) You're kind of acting like there is some implicit cost of resting people -- telling me to show how often it is done to an extreme -- and not really bothering to demonstrate that we should literally xerox the card -- with your own tables and charts so to speak. Basically assuming your own conclusion while rhetorically demanding me to prove mine.
     
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  9. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    Agree.

    Im not sure I consider Panama a top 4 team at the moment. Like you said, Jamaica and Canada are probably tougher tests right now. CR and Mexico filling out the top 4 opponents. Honduras and Haiti could give them a game for sure. Bermuda and Martinique would test them on a good day.

    GB has been pushing the narrative that he wants to try out young players and rotate. Yet, he trotted out the same squad against a TnT team who I feel is on par with Guyana.

    Im interested to see how he navigates the next 2 lineups. Could be crucial. Especially, if CR is able to upset Mexico. Will he rotate more this game or wait til Curacao (possibly)?

    It seems a big rotation would be out of character.
     
  10. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #135 juvechelsea, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
    Someone had posted Pulisic's touches on video on the other thread. You know what they showed? Generally speaking he was dangerous from the wing. His assist of Zardes starts on the wing. The supposed central work? Basically playing Arriola into space on the wing. If that's the supposed value on this, flip the script and have Arriola be the one playing Pulisic into space. You have the wrong water-carrier setting up the wrong dangerman. Pulisic already out performs Arriola in the goals and assists rates. That would probably only go up if it was properly sorted.

    I do not understand the fetish right now for having Pulisic set up Zardes and Arriola as opposed to the other way around. It might make superficial sense in 4-0 blowouts but when I need a finish against Mexico I want the worker bees setting up the finisher, not the finisher hoping a worker bee can put his pass on cage.
     
  11. nfiniti

    nfiniti Member

    Jun 30, 2007
    Rutherford
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Panama
    yup, the gold cup game in Tampa ..
     
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  12. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    I think its a test on how GB is able to navigate his roster.

    Panama rotated some players. Should be interesting to see how this goes. I think a smart coach would try to get this result for Panama. GB has to rotate or play the same players. That means that Panama will play heavy legs or an untested lineup. If Panama wants to progress past the quarters, this game is probably the key to it.
     
  13. nfiniti

    nfiniti Member

    Jun 30, 2007
    Rutherford
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Panama
     
  14. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What's the worst case scenario if players are rested tonight? We lose and face Jamaica with fresh legs. Don't see much downside to resting some tonight.
     
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  15. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    Bailey and Orgill will be rested at minimum
     
  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    There are two sets of data with different lessons. In 2011 they faced Panama in the second game, when nothing is assured. We lost that game and going into the next game were tied for the second spot. We advanced by squeaking past Guadeloupe. We lost the final to Mexico.

    Versus 2015 we like here already have advancement, play Panama to 1-1, with the hard won result eventually being inconsequential to group finish. We then lose to Jamaica and Panama and finish 4th.
     
  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    FWIW I checked and we did a complete 11 man new lineup for the 3rd game of Nicaragua in 2017 on the way to the title. Mind you, in the "6 player swap" era and I think they had one fewer rest day per game.

    In 2015, 9 players swapped (except Guzan and Bradley) and they were playing Panama 3rd game with advancement assured.

    In 2013, 9 players swapped (except Donovan and Holden) and they were playing CR 3rd game with advancement assured.

    In 2011, only 2 players swapped (Lichaj and Wondo) when they were playing Guadeloupe with advancement on the line.

    Past that I can't pull the lineups up, but I think my point is made.
     
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  18. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Farewell Sweet Prince
    Jan 9, 2004
    Gentrification's Apex.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Also interestingly, in 2011 we ran out the same 11 for the first two games, netted 3 points and a loss in the second game, Third game ran out 9 of the 11 for the 3rd straight game, won over Guadeloupe 1-0. In the knockouts we won the first two games on second half goals, got a 2-0 lead in the final, then got steamrolled 4-2. I think there is like one change between knockout rounds games and the final turned ugly on us. Coach got fired.

    That is the only time in recent memory we handled the tournament that way.

    Not sure why that would be anyone's template even if the group game results so far are different.
     
  20. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Farewell Sweet Prince
    Jan 9, 2004
    Gentrification's Apex.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    If I remember right, 2011 the group stage was every 3rd day instead of every 4th, so that changes things up just a bit.
     
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  21. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Panama is not man for man better than a fully rotated 11.
    When I heard that 2 million asking price, I assumed that he was homeward bound( Paul Simon voice.)

    He likes hanging out on the beach, plus when he hears about FL income tax...
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Not turning on Boyd, more looking out for his interests, but does the team really exist? My understanding is the stadium is not locked down, and they aren't going to start in Lockhart until that is settled. I can think of PR reasons to sound like you are signing players or money reasons to sign there nominally, but in practical terms it would make more sense to find a new home where they play actual soccer games. I know they would loan him back out, but if that's potentially for years, I'd be more concerned with where I am going for years for this important stretch.
     
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  23. Eighteen Alpha

    Eighteen Alpha Member+

    Aug 17, 2016
    Club:
    Stoke City FC
    Lineup posted:



    1143706268210589696 is not a valid tweet id
     
  24. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Read my post. 2011 is the one year that I can find that we kept xeroxing out the card and it doesn't end well. Group loss plus final loss where we had a lead and ran out of gas. I grant the gap was shorter but that actually makes them xeroxing the lineuo card then even dumber.

    Anyhow, my point was in every other recent tournament it was like 9-11 swaps last game and 2 of those we won the trophy. That's what the Gold Cup history is. If the goal is unrepentant winning at all costs, perhaps track what the winners did?

    I think people have World Cup on the brain. In other words, obsessive winning. In that context it is more advised to have that goal. This tournament should have different goals. But even if the goal is winning out with as little lineup change as possible, 2011 doesn't recommend that, and I'd be curious if our actual World Cup history does either. We don't usually make it through a group round unscathed, and we usually lose the next round if we advance. Even if we have a usual way of doing things there, I don't know if I'd place it on a pedestal given our history.

    Maybe as a project I'll go through tonight and sort out what we did in 2002 and other tournaments. The US has gotten oddly dogmatic for a country whose winning is now intermittent.
     
  25. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Also worth noting that by definition whoever we play next round crossing over will be one day more rested than we are. They played last night.
     

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