2019-2020 UEFA Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 3, 2019.

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  1. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just another example of "if it doubt, then keep the flag down".
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One hopes.
     
  3. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    And perhaps why in the WWC it was the lone exception to the rule that the calls are supposed to be made on the field.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The whole thing is so bizarre.

    The text change last year theoretically gave keepers more freedom, but in practice restricted it because the powers that be now want it called properly.

    And, in theory, this became easier to call for officials because there is clear guidance and a very clear standard to enforce, but in practice it's actually much harder because, well, it's really freaking hard to be sure if a goalkeeper is off the goal line a millimeter before a ball 12 yards away and outside the AR's direct line of sight has been kicked.

    So, just give it to VAR?

    I guess. But now you've got an eye in the sky issuing yellow cards.

    I have no idea when and how this is going to be solved.
     
  5. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My guess is they remove the yellow.
     
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  6. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I imagine the EPL and other leagues will just have an unwritten policy of telling their VARs to not call this. I can't imagine VARs will forensically analyze every penalty save/miss

    FIFA and IFAB kind of relented in the WWC with the addendum of not issuing cautions on penalty kicks in penalty shootouts and got lucky by only having one penalty shootout in the entire knockout stage.

    If they go down this road it will make penalty saves impossible.

    There could be a period where referees do order a bunch of retakes and everyone just gets frustrated and upset and they start to gradually get back to the idea of never ordering retakes like it always has been.

    I've only ordered retakes on a couple of PKs due to goal keeper infringement in my career as, either, AR or referee and it is not a fun call to make.

    It's one of the most dramatic moments in the game (elation for one team and devastation for one player) and you ruin it by being, the equivalent, of a traffic cop.

    In the fans and players eyes, you are giving a ticket for speeding for going 71 in a 70.

    I'm really waiting for the first time we see a send-off due to this. The automatic caution is just so contradictory to every recent law change and instruction going on.

    The Laws are being re-written to issue less cautions and instruction is going that way as well. Certain referees have just stopped issuing yellow cards on penalty kick fouls no matter how reckless or cynical they are, unless it's DOGSO.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But that can't happen until next year. So maybe this gets fixed for EURO 2020. But that means we have an entire season of dealing with this. Any solution or alleviation of the clear problem on the horizon has to come down to instruction. The best possible approach might be to say "VAR can't call this and ARs should only call this if they have zero doubt."

    Also, removing the yellow only removes the risk of the potentially odious 2CT. It still allows for the very real possibility of a minor and nearly non-existent offence deciding who gets 3 points or who progresses in a knockout match. That's no small matter.
     
  8. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    After watching the video I thanked the almighty that I don't do this anymore! Of course I can still give my expert opinion after watching 10 or 12 more times. :rolleyes::ninja:
     
  9. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member+

    Oct 10, 2011
    Arkansas
    Maybe IFAB should add a mandatory caution for keepers who lobby for the call against their opponent.
     
  10. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They could even say "excessively asks for a call against an opponent" so that refs have an out to never call it.
     
  11. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Over under on when the first double yellow comes for same goalie get called twice during KFTM? What's the UEFA rule if the keeper gets sent off during KFTM and they didn't use their 4th sub? Can they sub in their backup goalie from the bench?
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This got me thinking...

    There hasn't even been a KFTM in the UCL proper since 2016, when there were two (one being the final) UEL is slightly more common, as there was one in the semifinals this past season, one in the quarters in 2017, and one in the quarters in 2016.

    There are 15 knockout ties per year in the UCL and 33 in the UEL when you include the respective finals. That means only 5 of the last 192 UEFA club encounters in the knockout stages that could go to penalties have done so.

    When you factor in the playoff rounds (where VAR will be used in UCL this year), the UCL is 0 for 46 in the last four years--not a single playoff matchup has gone to penalties since August 2014. On the UEL side across the same timespan, it's 4 for 87. So when you eliminate qualifying matches, it's 9 out of 325 knockout matchups going to penalties.

    I knew it was difficult and uncommon when talking about two-legs and away goals, but I didn't realize it was that rare. It's at about 2.8%. By comparison, since FIFA went to a 15-match knockout tournament in 1986, there have been between 2 and 4 KFTMs at every tournament--resulting with a statistic of 20.7% (28 of 135) knockout encounters going to penalties. I know it's apples and oranges, but when comparing the two biggest events in international and club soccer, it's actually somewhat jarring.

    Other than that being interesting on its own, this is a long way of saying I don't think you'll see the double caution to a goalkeeper in UEFA competitions any time soon, precisely because the occasion is so rare.
     
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  13. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    They could just roll out a portable booth for the keeper to wait their turn.

    upload_2019-7-24_9-25-3.jpeg
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This link should go to right before the key moment, but if not it's 17:33 on the video:



    That's a UEL qualifier from last week. Faroese vs. Lithuanian clubs, so not exactly world-class sides. Ukrainian referee.

    Anyway, best I can tell...

    CR calls #9 yellow for simulation. Caution and IFK coming out.

    Problem is, #9 is already on a caution. Uh-oh.

    So he goes and talks to the AR (why he didn't do this immediately and/or why the AR didn't flag for a foul in the first place I can't say) and they change the call to a DFK going in and a yellow card for SPA/blatant holding (maybe more the latter, but I guess it wasn't that blatant if the referee thought it was a dive... I digress, though).

    So he annuls the yellow card to #9 of yellow and gives it to #6 of blue. Okay, fair enough.

    Except #6 of blue didn't commit the foul. In fact, from the initial video, if you look for players with white cleats to narrow it down, he wasn't even on screen and wasn't even one of the eight closest opponents when the foul occurred.

    Don't act impulsively. Don't bail yourself out of bad situations just by making things up. And don't lose concentration. This clip has a lot of lessons for both the CR and AR, but those are some of the big ones.
     
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  15. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just saw that a referee was hit with a flare in Europa league match in Romania (U. Craiova vs. Honved):
     
  16. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MassRef put the extra time jinx on...Several matches going to extra time today
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey, I only focused on playoff matches and the competitions proper. Qualifiers don't count!

    That said, looks like there were 47 first qualifying round ties in the UEL this year. Three went to extra time; only one went to penalties. That's remarkable. And consistent. Right in the 2% range for the round.
     
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  18. London_ref

    London_ref Member

    May 6, 2014
    London, England
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, indeed.

    Unless UEFA assigns her to UCL group matches, though, I can’t help but think this will be mostly a PR stunt. If she’s good enough to do the Super Cup, surely she’s good enough to do group stage UCL matches with regularity since the Super Cup has traditionally been an assignment that has gone to some of the best UCL referees.

    Either that or UEFA treats the Super Cup as more of a preseason event with little consequence.

    No matter what, this is a shock.
     
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  20. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I'm hoping it's not a publicity stunt, but I fear it is and a sign that the Super Cup's importance has been devalued.

    Over the years there have been some very competitive Super Cup matches with red cards and incidents.

    Kuipers had one where he gave two red cards to Porto in a game versus Barcelona. I've seen likes of Paul Scholes get sent off.

    If Bibi Steinhaus isn't good enough to get regular CL group stage matches and Europa League matches why is suddenly Frappart now?
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How valued was it ever, though?

    Oh, I think it might be competitive even if it isn't valued. This could be a very tough match.

    Good question.

    I mean, let's just call it what it is. It is definitely a publicity stunt. The only question is whether or not UEFA pivots off said stunt by offering Frappart and Steinhaus a couple UCL group stage matches this season. The fact that they've never done a playoff match or any UCL qualifying matches (so the type of matches that new FIFA referees from Andorra or the Faroe Islands can be on) sort of lifts the mask, though.

    This is a very nice honor, but when you dig into it there are two big issues. One, UEFA shows no intent of actually promoting these women in week-to-week competitive matches. And two, there were a few male referees lined up for this game based on their performances in the last 3-4 years who just got jumped by someone who wasn't even in contention.

    You can get over the second point. Stuff happens in assigning. But the first one is the key. If UEFA doesn't use this to actually promote Frappart and others, this is a really, really dumb assignment.
     
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  22. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    From the AP write-up:
    Frappart also became the first female referee to officiate a French league match in April. She has been promoted to the pool of French top-flight referees on a permanent basis for the upcoming season.

    UEFA President Aleksander Ceferin says: “I have said on many occasions that the potential for women’s football has no limits.” Ceferin adds: “I hope the skill and devotion that Stéphanie has shown throughout her career to reach this level will provide inspiration to millions of girls and women around Europe and show them there should be no barriers in order to reach one’s dream.”
     
  23. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #148 balu, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
    I'm stunned. I'm all for supporting women referees as many of you know, but giving her this honor ahead of Cakir (who is 4O) and Turpin (who is VAR), both of whom have never done this match (Turpin hasn't even done any European final), is just beyond belief. The usual "what matters should be performance, not gender" argument used to defend female referees is shattered here - no male referee gets this match without having done UCL knockout matches, while Frappart hasn't even done UCL/EL qualifying.

    That being said, I definitely hope for a strong performance from Frappart and her team. I don't want to imagine the backlash if this game becomes a disaster or gets out of control.
     
  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    No player is going to look back on their career and so "boy, I wish I won the UEFA Super Cup." But it is a real trophy when you count players medals and achievements winning the UEFA Super Cup is counted and it's counted on Wikipedia, where say winning the Emirates Cup or International Champions Cup is not.

    For the team that wins the CL, it is a game and competition that you really don't want to lose more than win, where the team that wins the Europa League goes in thinking they have something to prove.

    Losing the game can have negative consequences for your season especially for the CL winning team. Real Madrid never recovered from last year's embarrassment against Atletico Madrid.

    In 2012, Atletico Madrid and Falcao ripped apart Roberto Di Matteo's Chelsea and it was the beginning for him and that squad.

    Sir Alex Ferguson talked about how when they lost against Lazio in 2000, that they celebrated like they won the World Cup. Winning isn't that important, but defeat stings a lot more.

    It's played under the same exact Laws of the Game as any other official UEFA match with the standard 3+1 sub rules, etc.

    An UEFA have always given the assignment respect and priority by putting their top referees on the game

    Some interesting points about the UEFA Super Cup assignment.

    Every referee that's done the game since 2002:

    2002: Dallas (SCO)
    2003: Barber (ENG)
    2004: Hauge (NOR)
    2005: Temmink (NED)
    2006: Farina (ITA)
    2007: Plautz (AUS)
    2008: Bo Larsen (DEN)
    2009: De Bleeckere (BEL)
    2010: Busacca (SWI)
    2011: Kuipers (NED)
    2012: Skomina (SLO)
    2013: Eriksson (SWE)
    2014: Clattenburg (ENG)
    2015: Collum (SCO)
    2016: Mazic (SRB)
    2017: Rocchi (ITA)
    2018: Marciniak (POL)

    Lot of big names and a couple of "who?" Barber and Temmink?

    What's interesting about this list is that apart from Busacca, none did the CL Final or Europa League Final prior to that assignment. This was literally their first UEFA Final. Many others never did another UEFA Final after that.

    It could be a coincidence, but it seems like Cakir won't ever get the game especially now that they have turned it into a publicity stunt.
     
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  25. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Yeah referees get bumped all the time. Now that I think about it, this is really beyond belief and a pure publicity stunt. Couldn't they have given her at least one CL qualifier match and then this? Or just throw her into the group stage this year and give it to her next year? Something? But not just put her on your 4th (out of 4) most important men's Final (CL, Euro, Europa League, and Super Cup).

    See Kassai (who barely did any UCL knockout matches) getting the CL Final in 2011 over De Bleeckere who seemingly did a CL semi-final every year (I'm still bitter over that).

    But this is like putting someone into an MLS All-Star game who has never officiated an MLS game before.

    If she was given group stage games prior to this, I really wouldn't be against the assignment, but this isn't right and I don't say it lightly.
     

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