2018 MLS Playoff Knockout Round Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by MassachusettsRef, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    10/31/2018

    New York City v Philadelphia Union
    Yankee Stadium (7PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: CJ Morgante
    AR2: Jason White
    4TH: Jose Carlos Rivero
    VAR: Drew Fischer

    FC Dallas v Portland Timbers
    Toyota Stadium (9:30PM ET)
    REF: Alan Kelly
    AR1: Eric Weisbrod
    AR2: Corey Parker
    4TH: Armando Villarreal
    VAR: Dave Gantar

    11/01/2018

    D.C. United v Columbus Crew
    Audi Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    Ar2: Brian Poeschel
    4th: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic

    Los Angeles FC v Real Salt Lake
    Banc of California Stadium (10:30PM ET)
    Ref: Mark Geiger
    Ar1: Frank Anderson
    Ar2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Baldomero Toledo
    VAR: Kevin Stott
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let's give the AVARs some love.

    NYC-PHI: Tom SUPPLE (?)
    DAL-POR: Jonathan JOHNSON
    DC-CLB: Matthew NELSON
    LAFC-RSL: Cameron BLANCHARD
     
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  3. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    An announcer said Portland players left the bench for an MC at halftime. Portland's Diego Chara and FC Dallas's Carlos Gruezo got yellows.
     
  4. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh that will be interesting for the DisCo
     
  5. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sibiga, AR and VAR completely missed a PK for Philadelphia that could have made it 2-1. Bedoya got absolutely destroyed after crossing a ball. Tough to tell live if defender got the ball. Even if he did he crushed Bedoya on the follow through. Replays at half time show defender completely missed the ball entirely.

    Easy red for DOGSO against Portland for Kelly though. Ends up being a smart foul as they hang on for the win.
     
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  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #6 MassachusettsRef, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
    I agree. Though I think this is one of those where, historically, referees have tended to avoid calling these types of challenges as penalties when the cross/pass leads immediately to a shot on goal or scoring opportunity, which it did here. By the book, this was 100% a penalty. But what has "football expected" historically? That's a slightly tougher question to answer. Long way of saying that once the CR and AR decide not to call it, it becomes a more difficult intervention for the VAR. If the CR/AR missed it altogether, that would different. It really goes to the heart of how VR is supposed to be used. Do we intervene when things are clearly wrong by the book, or when they are clearly wrong by the book and tradition?

    With all that said, my understanding already is that PRO wanted it called as a penalty either in real-time or via VAR. So I think it will be viewed as a missed KMI by all involved.

    Another very interesting play from the match was the Jones yellow card in the 86'. A foul occurred with studs going into the ankle of the opponent. The foul was called, but it seemed pretty obvious that Sibiga didn't get a good look at the severity of the foul and realize the point of contact until the NYCFC player stayed down injured. No card is immediately shown and after a trainer comes on the field, he begins checking with VAR. On replay, the foul is 100% yellow--it's just not high enough or late enough or with enough force to be SFP, despite the apparent injury. So Fischer, the VAR, cannot send it down as a missed red card. Yet after that discussion ends, Sibiga shows Jones a yellow card. Now, that's absolutely the correct sanction for the challenge. But if that yellow card came from someone on the field (let's say the AR or 4th), then it should have been shown before consulting the VAR. If, instead, Sibiga used "checked complete" as a signal that "well, if it's not red, it's definitely yellow," he's exploiting a loophole in the protocols to use--but actually not technically use--the VAR to give a yellow card. It's smart refereeing in the moment, but it does open up a slippery slope.
     
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  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I spent the whole night thinking Bedoya was called offside, but that was not the case apparently. Should have been a pen.
     
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  8. FootyPDX

    FootyPDX Member

    Portland Timbers
    England
    Nov 21, 2017
    You can't leave the bench at half time? :) How do you get to the locker room?

    FWIW, it was one player (Asprilla) and he might be punished by Disco, but as a Timbers fan I'm OK with that, no huge loss. I was kind of freaking out because the coach was on the pitch talking to the 4O as well, but then I realized that the whistle had been blown for half-time already
     
  9. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS just posted instant replay for last night's games. Sibiga does actually hit the whistle and put arm up for IFK. Maybe Bedoya was offside. Even if he was it's an easy yellow for UB.
     
  10. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it was Burke two touches later who was offside, but I agree that a card is justified for the tackle regardless of whether you can give a penalty for it.

    So here's a question:

    If Bedoya had been called offside, but the whistle blew after the tackle, would that be correctable to a PK via video review? I can't think of any reason why not considering we can allow goals on a reviewed offside decision.
     
  11. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ya you're right. The offside was on the shot. Insane VAR does not ask for a review.

    As to your 2nd question it doesn't matter if someone pulls out a knife and stabs someone, you can't change a restart. If the offside infraction is first it's IFK coming out.
     
  12. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But if we review an offside leading to a goal, we're changing the restart, are we not? Why would an erroneous offside leading to a penalty be any different?
     
  13. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    I believe I see where he is coming from.

    If offside was called, it happened before the tackle. The tackle is then no longer reviewable for a pk. But is reviewable for a red card.

    In the offside review after a goal situation, the goal stood and offside is being reviewed.

    If offside is called before the ball is in the net, you can't review it and award a goal because play was stopped before the goal
     
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Not sure what you mean here. Did you misread his question? The question is this:
    • AR sees potential OS
    • PK worthy offense happens
    • R blows whistle for OS
    • Can VAR review the OS because of the potential PK?
    So it is not about changing a restart for something that happened after the play was stopped.

    If the OS call was improper and the whistle did not stop play before the PK offense, review of the play seems consistent with the spirit of the VAR criteria to identify a PK that should have been given. (I have no idea if it is consistent with the letter of the criteria.)
     
  15. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry yes. Did not understand exactly what he was getting at.
     
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  16. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry if my phrasing was confusing!
     
  17. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    #17 GlennAA11, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
    Chapman's laissez faire style might not be best suited for a testy game like this one. Whatever happened to PI?
     
  18. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Interesting case in DC vs CLB. Match went to penalties in very windy conditions. On CLB last penalty, the ball was moving by the wind right when the kick was taken.

    Kick was missed, a bit of a protest by CLB, but no retake.
     
  19. mfw13

    mfw13 Member

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    So.....should Vela have gotten a red for his elbow? I've seen reds given for a lot less elbowing-wise, but sending Vela off would have pretty much ended the match, as LAFC would be down to 10 men and losing 0-1.

    Or to put it another way, that's a RC if Clint Dempsey throws it ;)
     
  20. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Play suspended for 5 minutes in first half due to objects being thrown onto the field. Started happening again in 2nd half. Geiger was clearly seen asking the RSL players "What do you want me to do?" over and over.

    What can he do after they already suspended the game for 5 minutes in the first half? Whats the next step?
     
  21. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I suppose either suspend play every time it happens or abandon the match, but neither option is appealing.
     
  22. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do the LOTG say anything about weather influencing a game? I'm not talking about suspending a game due to weather.

    Outside of what referees have the power to do, does MLS have policies about suspended or abandoned games and/or dangerous fans?
     
  23. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ve seen this one popping up in a few forums.

    Putting aside the “what football wants” or “what the game expects” nonsense for a minute, by the law this should be a retake. And if the ball had rolled closer to goal and then been scored I bet they would have.
     
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  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, this one is making my head hurt. I actually don't believe there is a correct answer here.

    The closest the IFAB comes to addressing this is in 8.17, but it's the opposite (where the VAR identifies both a missed penalty kick AND a non-called offside offence): https://www.knvb.nl/downloads/bestand/9844/var-handbook-v8_final

    You'll also note that 8.6 in the above document explicitly says a goal can be allowed if it comes after a "wrong" whistle, yet the IFAB says nothing about a penalty being awarded after a "wrong" whistle.

    So, if the penalty occurred after the alleged offside offence, technically I don't think a VAR could intervene. Offside offences on their own are not reviewable. And there's no explicit instruction or exception about missed penalties immediately prior to an potentially wrong offside offence. And, we also should remember that play is technically stopped when the referee decides it is stopped--not the moment the whistle goes.

    The potential loophole, of course, is what you pointed out. If the whistle doesn't go until after the "foul" occurs, you're pretty much in an analogous situation to the ones where ARs slightly delay their flags to allow an OGSO to finish. As we know, in those cases when the ball goes in the net, referees then whistle the offside and the VAR can intervene to "uphold" the goal if the offside was clearly wrong. Same principle seems like it could apply here except that it's not explicitly written anywhere and no governing body has told ARs to slightly delay flags if they see a physical challenge for a potential penalty coming... so it's not quite the same. Also, when a ball ends up in the net, everyone knows it is a goal if the offside flag is wrong--that's objective and everyone can see what the alternative result would be. With a penalty decision, who is to say the referee would have called it if not for the offside? That's got more subjectivity which makes this all a much tougher sell. A VAR is going to communicate down that an offside turns into a penalty that was never actually called?

    Then again, it could be be viewed in a much more simplistic fashion by the powers that be: a missed PK occurred before play was actually stopped, therefore it must be reviewed. That's consistent with the spirit of VR, as you say, but it's weird that it's not a situation that was accounted for in the protocols given how thoroughly they are written. And given play is supposed to stop when the referee makes a decision, rather than when he whistles, it's a dangerous exception to start making.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Any video of this?

    I also thought Sauro open-hand slapped Acosta during the dust-up/mass con in extra time last night in DC. I only saw it once though, so my eyes might have deceived me on the severity or point of contact.
     

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