I don't know. I like the idea of a long FA Cup type tournament. Why limit the number of games. It's an argument that keeps coming back all the time. Always seeking to "limit" the number of games on MLS teams isn't a great way for them to demonstrate their dominance. CCL was changed their format to accommodate MLS a few times now. I'd like to think they are strong enough to handle a few more games no matter how significant or not they are, just like in Europe... otherwise I dont want people to argue with me that those teams are stronger than a middle tier Euro team (Europa level) because they have yet to demonstrate that. Let them compete like everyone else, long domestic cup, a real group stage at CCL, the whole 9 yards, otherwise, they aren't fooling anyone, depth is a major issue. It's a CSA tournament. The whole point of their existance is to provide more playing opportunities to Canadians. Why is it so strange that they would increase the quota of their tournament so more Canadians may play? More Canadians in a Canadian Cup? Heresy... The CSA doesn't exist to serve MLS teams. The CSA's mandate is to improve Canadian soccer, and having more of them playing in an important domestic cup matters since it helps improve the program which is the ultimate goal. 6 Canadians starting isn't unreasonable. If the 3 MLS clubs are as deep and as good as you're saying, they should ace it and you should welcome such challenge, yet you're advocating for them to be left alone. As for D3 players, they were beyond happy to test themselves in a pro environment against Ottawa Fury and play in a real stadium. That kind of experience is priceless. The fans got to see that there IS talent in Canada and those D3 guys learned so much more by playing Ottawa which in turn will help those guys improve drastically. Hell, even Ottawa was surprise at Blainville taking it to them. Why on earth would you be against that? I don't doubt you're a Canadian soccer fan but those 3 billionaire clubs have the mean to tweak their rosters in between MLS and CCL season. Whether they choose to spend to do it or not isn't my problem, isn't CPL problem nor the CSA problem. Even you must see that. Euro teams tweak their rosters to adjust to the competition they're about to face. If that's too much for MLS teams, perhaps they should stop shouting that they will become a world top league because no one's falling for it and it makes them look bad. The anomaly is having the CSA sanctioning 3 Canadian clubs in an American league AND tolerating having Americans being branded "domestics" on it's own soil. That's the anomaly here. You're trying to switch it around as the CSA pandering to the CPL while for over a decade, the CSA gave MLS and the 3 clubs whatever they wanted. 7-8 years later, our program was trash, our youth teams worse than before MLS era and our 3 clubs were much more concerned about winning and making money than the national program and developing players. By trash I mean crap like being difficult whenever the national team wanted to recall players. Benito Floro said it himself how it was a challenge to get players from those teams to get released by MLS clubs. The CSA is fulfilling its mandate and that doesn't include putting 3 billionaire clubs above the interests of the entire program. *I have ZERO respect for Vancouver Whitecaps ever since they affiliated with Fresno and helping develop American talent while shutting down Whitecaps 2 just because the CSA wouldn't let them sabotage Cavalry FC in Calgary. Even their ticket holders threw that at the owners face in their annual meeting. (Documented). If there's 1 team that doesn't deserve any more favors from the CSA, it's the Whitecaps. Black eye for Montreal for shutting down FC Montreal in USL. Sure they can win but it will be MUCH harder. They are unbelievably exposed when they can't rely on their full starting XI. With a higher Canadian content, this will be a tougher cup to win. Let's not underestimate the Euro Canadians grinding it in D3 to D1 leagues. The competition environment is absolutely brutal for Canadians to earn minutes. You think these guys will be much less talented than the bench warmers on MLS teams or USL teams? Seriously doubt it. You think CIS players will be that less skilled than NCAA players? Doubt it. You think our D3 is that much less talented than theirs? Well Blainville scare the crap out of Ottawa so the answer is a resounding NO. Calgary Foothills winning the PDL Championship with 21 out of 23/24 being Canadians is a huge rebuttal of the myth that whatever the 3 clubs aren't developing can't succeed. That's a convenient lie. Lack of opportunity is why they aren't in MLS and that's not the league's fault. It's our own and CPL will provide that and prove a lot of people wrong. 2 years ago, Samuel Piette was a D3 player in La Liga in Spain, according to your standard, "too low level" for MLS. It's amusing how signing an MLS contract magically makes him "MLS level". Piette was always this good, but this kid from Repentigny (my hometown), right next to Montreal (less than 10 minutes) wasn't remotely on Montreal Impact for years. He was grinding it in Europe and toughening up by having to work twice as hard to prove he belonged in Spain. How many more Piette are out there that our 3 clubs haven't even took a look at? Lots of those "Piette Well, not only is he a starter at age 23, but his manager said he should be playing in Europe right now. There are more "Piette" out there, more late bloomers like him or Osorio and according to the league, a good number of them are looking to come home. Of course, an Alphonso Davies, Millar, Cavallini or Larin should go to Europe.
Not limiting the number of games is a valid option - just not one I prefer. The games are more interesting when it is first squads out there. If more games in the CC means we get to see a bunch of matches where and MLS or CPL team trots out its reserves to take on a D3 side, what's the point? So that we can send our strongest team to represent Canada in the CCL. It isn't just about the CC. What you say is true but what of it? The MLS teams are weaker when they can't field their starting line up. Very true - as it is of every soccer team on the planet, otherwise those guys wouldn't be in the starting eleven. It would be harder for them to win with more Canadians (and therefore not their starting eleven). Also true - but why are we trying to make it more difficult for them to win? No, I don't. As I wrote in my last post, I'd prefer to see them stay in Europe. I think they will generally have better development options there. I don't think our D3 players are any different than theirs. (Possibly the CIS would be a bit lower than the NCAA since we have student athletes and they tend to have athletes that happen to go to school, but that's a quibble.) I also don't think those D3 athletes are going to step directly on to an MLS starting line up and not weaken it. My point, which I hold to, is that there aren't a bunch of Canadians playing outside of Europe that the MLS teams can simply grab and swap out for their foreign players. Piette played in Europe from 2013 to 2017. He didn't somehow become MLS level because he signed an MLS contract. He went to Europe as an 18 year old who was not at MLS level, played and developed for four years, and was signed by an MLS team when he was MLS level. If he keeps developing he may end up going back to Europe, but this time at a D1 level. We won't then say "It's amusing how signing a Bundesliga contract magically made him "Bundesliga level". He was always this good but this kid who was developing in Dusseldorf, right next to [Bundesliga Team] wasn't even on their radar for years." It would have been a great thing if Montreal (or TFC or Vancouver) had identified him and been the team to develop him (assuming they could have done as good a job) . They didn't. They missed him and certainly others. That will happen when there are three D1 teams in a country of 36 million people. This is a good argument in favour of establishing the CPL but even that isn't going to turn out a bunch of Europe D1 level players.
You don't have to watch it but again, it's a CSA tournament, not a MLS tournament. Why should people elsewhere in the country denied being able to see the 3 MLS clubs? That snubbing attitude is a reason why the rest of the country outside the 3 cities are so uninterested in them and the league. You can just tune in later in the tournament, but the experience for those D3 guys is vital to their development and the program. Most Euros understood as much hence scenarios like Real Madrid showing up in a municipal stadium in a town of 25k. The kids they just beat up will have learn so much in 90 minutes which will motivate them to work harder and correct their flaw. That beautiful to watch. That's what's the game about. They are BILLIONAIRES! They have the money to change their roster if they qualify for CCL in time for that tournament. Whether they choose to invest more money to retool for a CCL run is NOT my problem and it's certainly NOT the CSA's problem. That's fine and anyone would agree that you won't be as strong as your main starting XI. This is where I go back to my argument on why MLS teams can't compete against Europa level teams, the drop in quality between the starting XI and using their depth is quite staggering. They are Canadian teams that can't play dominant soccer with an influx of Canadians. There are quality Canadians being developed and somehow, seems like the rest of the world can get their hands on them or develop them but the 3 MLS teams can't do it. So why should their under-performing development programs and approach to scouting be the CSA and non-MLS fans problem? I could easily switch this around and ask you "why are you trying to advocate that the CSA help mask their obvious flaws...a flagrant lack of depth and under-performing development programs? I don't know but people need to see this and people will wonder how can teams that have been around for so long and had such a head start with almost limitless resources looks so ordinary when required to play more Canadians. Some of them will never make a Euro D1 team or escape the bench role. Euro D2 and D3 doesn't pay that well in most cases. It's attractive for them to come home to a new D1 league where they can make a name for themselves and earn somewhat the same salary at home or more and bring what they've learned in Europe with them while playing lots of minutes. That's the whole point of CPL. Theses Euro-Canadian guys had to exile themselves to make it in Europe at huge risks and sacrifice due to a lack of opportunity to play pro. Alphonso Davies is a prime example that you can develop 100% in Canada and still end up becoming a super-elite without abandoning your life an try your luck in Europe. That's the point, that's the idea. That's why the arrival of CPL II will be that much more important for them to play at D2 and D3 level here at home. And yes, you're right about the NCAA. Americans teams have little incentive in using an international slot for a Canadian, just like CPL will have little incentive to favor an American over a Brazilian or Uruguayan. There's also the question of some of them don't want to go to MLS either. He left for Europe as early as 2009 at age 15 for France to play at Metz youth team. In many interviews he details how the journey was very hard on himself and his family. He joined the German side later. He did play for the senior club at age 20. I don't know what "MLS level" means but in 2012 when Piette was 18, that level was mediocre at best (being polite but I witnessed it as a former TFC fan). That right there makes no sense. Montreal didn't even know he existed, Piette was already better than what Montreal already had at that time. Just trying to get you to let go of that "MLS level" thing. It's much more complex than that and it's very political on the Canadian front. I actually wish it was black and white as you think it is but far from it. That's fine, but we should stop making the association that MLS teams being weak playing more Canadians means that Canadian players are weak overall. That generalization has to stop and shamefully, the 3 MLS clubs contributed to that and quite frankly started it when they went crying to the CSA that they needed Americans to be domestics because the talent was too low in Canada. They should have just said what you said...country is too big, we'll miss a few but we intend to find out and hold tryouts around the country. CPL hasn't kicked a ball and they not only already scouted extensively their areas but are organizing friendlies to test them. After Halifax, York 9 has scouted York Region and setting up a friendly against a California club to test them right at TFC's doorstep. I used to be so mad about this because I deeply care about youth level but now, I just find the whole thing comical and quite frankly funny. MLS obviously have CPL beat on internationals and DP, but domestic players? At first? Sure. Long term, No way.
I'm not snubbing. Just pointing out that extending the tournament too far also dilutes it. I expect the CPL teams will find the same. Really? Playing one or two games against an MLS B team is vital to their development and their program? For the couple of D3 teams that even make the CC? Money isn't the objection, roster rules and player cohesiveness are. That and your idea that the CSA should deliberately make things difficult for them and then say "well, that's not our problem". The reason they would look ordinary if forced to play significantly more Canadians is that they are playing at the level that they are. There aren't enough Canadians around who can start in MLS, not when they're competing against the world for starting spots. The CPL will have no problem filling the Canadian spots for two reasons. First, because the level to make it in the CPL will be significantly lower than the level needed to make it in MLS. Second, because all the teams will be working under the same requirements. They will all be fielding guys who are only on the team because they are Canadians. So they will be able to fill those spots with lower talent guys and still be competitive. (All this is okay, by the way. It is part of the purpose of the CPL.) The Canadian MLS teams operate in a different league structure where they would get hammered if they ignored the international player supply. Look at the US MLS teams. See how many of their starters aren't American in a league with the partial purpose of developing US talent. It's a balance. And the Canadian MLS teams are developing Canadians. It takes many players in the system for each guy who sticks, though. For every Osorio or Teibert there are a dozen who flame out. TFC2's roster is filled with Canadians and every season a few get a shot at the top team. Some stick but most don't. And we're going to need a dozen Osorios and Teiberts for each Davies (assuming he continues to live up to his potential). It is a lot about churning guys through to see who is going to have it. The CPL will help by adding more capacity to the system. You describe the MLS development systems as underperforming. What specifically do you think they would look like (or how would they be different) if they were performing well?
I didn't meant you. I meant the 3 teams. Domestic cups in Europe are still quite popular while our current tournament doesn't draw. Don't you think a change is in order or you still feel that the well being of 3 billionaire clubs is more important than the entire tournament? Playing against Giovinco and company? Yeah, it's huge on those kids. Playing in pro stadiums in front of a large crowd is also a huge source of motivation as well. It's valuable. Why do you associate the CSA increasing Canadian content and changing the format of a faulty tournament as an attack on the 3 clubs? It's not an attack against them, it should be done for the improvement of the grand scheme of things. I also noted how little you care about things being made difficult on CPL if the status quo is kept as MLS sides would just put their starting XI against them after enjoying all those bye straight to QF or SF. It's a domestic cup and a tournament. Things being hard is the whole point, otherwise that trophy has little value. The 3 clubs can just try to win it with their own content without having to revamp their squad, just saying it might be harder if the Can Content increases and no... not our problem. It's a Canadian Cup and Canadian teams should win that cup with Canadians on it. They would be more if they were considered domestics on US teams.... 1-It's a Canadian league so it's expected for clubs to have Canadians on roster. How do you think it was for American teams when MLS started? Were they that good or was it because those domestic spots needed to be filled? We all know that regarding foreigners, MLS is way ahead but comparing domestics from both countries, I have big doubts on the gap. There might be one since they play in some occasion with legends and have to privilege to learn from them but it isn't night and day either. 2-CPL will be doing exactly what MLS had to do when they started or what Australians, Japanese and Koreans did when they started. When you say "lower talent", comparing to internationals on MLS team (that's who they should be compared too as they can't compete against Americans), you're 100% correct, they are lower for the most part in talent. Canadians vs Americans, the difference isn't that big and the gap between both leagues will for the longest time be related to how much teams are allow/willing to spend to buy foreign talent. That's why I laugh at claims that CPL will be lower than USL, I don't think it's possible. CPL who was already projected to be above NASL will be somewhere below MLS and above USL. That's fine, but it was wrong of them to pressure the CSA in granting them an exemption allowing Americans to be domestic on Canadian rosters. That's my major pet-peeves against those 3 and in 2018, that shouldn't stand anymore, there's enough talent around for the CSA to cancel the exemption. Also, they are member of the CSA. They have to abide by its rules. The question is whether or not they are developing Canadians, it's how they are doing it. A bit shocking that with all their resources that they aren't better than academies out there that produced guys like Millar, Davies (Edmonton, not Vancouver), Larin, Osorio (Brampton and Uruguay). They wouldn't need the CSA exemption allowing them to double dip in both country's player pool to fill their domestic spots...but hey, it was cheaper to benefit from that exemption than having to do the heavy lifting in terms of scouting for talent is such a big country I suppose. Relying on this exemption is an admission that their developmental system hasn't been satisfactory enough to be lifted. By keeping it in place, they are maintaining that the Canadian pool would not allow them to compete and that they are STILL unable to develop a better pool of players despite their financial advantages...I don't know about you but that position is silly and hard to respect.
I think our current tournament is pretty successful. It does draw well. I look forward to seeing it continue to expand. That's my point. They won't be playing against Giovinco in front of a huge crowd. They'll be playing against TFC's bench players and call ups in front of a mediocre crowd. It's changing the rules to benefit one league at the expense of the other two. I'm not calling it an attack but it is certainly favouring one group over another. It's not making it difficult on the CPL, it's letting all the teams play their best teams. That's what I want to see. Here I think you are just wrong. You can't keep waving away any time players spend with MLS teams. They don't just develop as kids before MLS and with other leagues after MLS. Yes, every level (including Timbits soccer) plays a role. Osorio, to use one of your examples, has been with TFC since 2013. He's played close to 200 games for them all in. The Osorio you see today is not the guy who originally signed on to TFC. And they're right. The Canadian pool still doesn't contain enough players (without pillaging Europe which isn't necessarily helpful to Canadian player development) to make up three competitive MLS teams staffed mainly by Canadians. The Canadian MLS teams are promoting Canadians who are getting more starts (look at Fraser and Telfer this year, along with Hamilton and Chapman from last year). The rate is increasing but so is the bar they have to meet to become a starter in MLS. Overall, this is good and the CPL will help make it better. It isn't there, yet, though.
Draws so well that TV wont broadcast anything except the finals... so no, it's far from fine. I doubt TFC risk a CCL berth if they have to play 6 Canadians. They barely made it out of Ottawa and that was a USL side. Putting in Giovinco gives you the power to compensate not having your full line up. On the return leg, TFC didn't use 6 Canadians, they use only 3 and put in most of their starter to put the game out of reach of Ottawa. I dont even think the CSA look at that. They just want more Canadians to play, period. They can't control wants going on in CCL or MLS but they control CC and that's their mandate to give more opportunity to Canadians. Now you're sounding more like a MLS fan than a Canadian fan. Wouldn't you be interested to see those 3 teams depth get tested? I would even as a fan That's totally under MLS squad control. They have little incentive to develop better players knowing they can just start a load of internationals and Americans as domestics. They are Canadian clubs, time they act like it. If that's what it takes so they take the developmental side more seriously at the risk of missing their sole chance of going to CCL, so be it. It's not the CSA's job to make sure the 3 MLS teams keeps their status quo by playing very few Canadians. People are tired of it. Everyone sees the talent in Canada, yet those 3 teams can't give opportunities to those outside their system or develop their own to save their lives. Agree to disagree here. That's stretching the developmental part but we disagree here. How would they know there wasn't talent in Canada if they went straight to the CSA instead of scouting like the CPL has been doing for over a year + selecting the best and organizing friendly against other U teams to test them. Dude... they are all talk but they aren't as into developing as they claim. They prefer to find talent as close as possible to be able to play and pounce it. They've been ignoring players outside their system for years, Vancouver and Montreal shutdown their USL clubs. Other academies have develop players that can make an impact on the national team while the one's from MLS are bench guys at best. Results dont match. Theres a reason the CSA is on their case. It's insufficient that's what I'm saying
Back to a discussion of format, I see next year's set up as the future format for the league. The first round will be the existing CPL clubs and the Div 3 winner. I expect the MLS clubs and Ottawa Fury will get seeded and join the tournament the following round (Quarterfinals). In the long term future when there is CPL DIv 1 and Div 2, the MLS clubs and top 5 CPL Div 1 clubs from the previous season will get seeded into the Round of 16 versus the survivors from the earlier rounds. Teams would then be playing between 30-36 meaningful games per season, which I think is a valid number of games per year for player development.
This is a CSA tournament. They just started their own D1 league. No way they see their league lower than clubs playing in a D1 USSF league.
It depends whether they want to pretend the D1 = D1 or have the format reflect reality. It's no slam against the CPL to acknowledge that teams with a payroll of $2 million aren't going to be as good as teams with payrolls of $8 to $25 million.
Pretend? CPL is a FIFA sanctioned D1 league. No pretention here, just reality. Why do you care so much that MLS teams would have to play 2 or 3 extra games to go to CCL? Didn't a D3 team beat an EPL team at this year FA Cup? Who cares about salaries, anything can happen. You sound like the CSA has 1 knee down to the shining MLS crest. They don't and they certainly have zero interest at elevating a foreign D1 league over their own. I still think you have yourself a random draw with 16 clubs and proceed with KO tournament up until the end of CPL season.
My point wasn't the official designation of the league, in which case they are both D1. My point was that there will be a significant talent gap and it would be okay to acknowledge that. MLS and the EPL are both D1 but no one will pretend that makes the teams equal of the field. I don't follow the FA Cup but I'm going to assume the answer to your question is yes. I'll also point out that it is rare enough to be worth noting. In most cases, it doesn't happen. Having interdivisional play in the Voyageurs Cup is interesting. I'm just saying that, if they want to limit the number of games or address the awkward number of participating teams, one way to do it is seeding. The could also, as you suggest, expand to 16 teams and do a random draw. I'm suggesting no such thing. I'm not sure why but you seem to view any statement from anyone affiliated with MLS as full of arrogance and derision toward the CPL. You also seem to get your back up if any posters here suggest that MLS has a higher level of play than the CPL will start with. Both leagues will have teams in this country and will have to figure out how they fit together. The CPL will be starting at a lower level than MLS despite both being labelled D1. That's okay. We all want the CPL to succeed and acknowledging the reality that they won't be starting at MLS level isn't a slam.
The league and everyone has already acknowledge the gap. That's all I was saying, no one's trying to pretend anything, it just makes for a better tournament. It's been acknowledged many times, by me, the league, the CSA, the fans. Everyone. We get it already. However, some, including you, double down on that and insists that the CSA and CPL somehow know their place (which they do) and on top of that "advertise it" (which is ridiculous from a business perspective). No sane business would do that. I have yet to see a business running ads saying "we're #2!!!". Fans aren't idiots, let them judge both products for themselves, that's all. The CPL should not be denied a chance to succeed by broadcasting that it's inferior. I have yet to see an add where MLS is openly saying that they are #2 next to Liga MX, why should the CSA & CPL do that? MLS isn't interested in co-existing with CPL. TFC sees it as an enemy, Montreal are ignoring it and Vancouver have literally tried to ******** it up before it's launch, so CPL, rightfully so, aren't returning their calls. This is where you and I differ. You seem obsessed at the "lower level thing", labeling and somehow, the CSA MUST treat MLS as the "superior" league by granting them "byes". What I'm saying is that, let MLS prove it on the pitch. Period. No byes needed.
Avis rental cars. Google the ads. They're pretty funny. The MLS teams are going to have to coexist with the CPL. My hope is that both the Canadian MLS teams and the CPL teams will be able and willing to work together for the benefit of the Canadian talent pool. There is a lot of potential there if they can get past the chest thumping and standing on pride. Again, I'm not saying they MUST give them byes. I'm just presenting seeding as one logical potential option IF they want to use seeding (as they have done in the past) as a way of reducing the number of games or addressing the potentially awkward number of teams. And now it's back to looking forward to tomorrow's final.
I think we'll see loans and player movement back and forth which is good for players. A guy like Jordan Hamilton should look at starting in CPL instead of being on the bench or TFC II.
On the question of what teams might be included in the Canadian Championship, perhaps lessons could be learned from the history of Welsh Cup. At one point Welsh clubs in the English league system were invited, but then they were excluded. Eventually, UEFA decreed that the Welsh teams in the English leagues would have to qualify for CL play through the English pyramid and not the Welsh. That makes me wonder if CONCACAF would step in and force the USSF to treat the Canadian MLS teams as American teams for the purposes of CCL play.
Back to tomorrow's game: The 2018 tournament has a total confirmed attendance of 78 256 so far. I say confirmed because no attendance was reported for any of the D3 home games. Based on anecdotal reports, the D3 home games averaged 1000 so the real total attendance is about 81 000. That means an attendance of 19 000 in Toronto on Wednesday night (very doable) would put the tournament total over 100 000 for the third straight year. It would take about 21 600 to beat last year's total and become the second highest of all time. Beating the all-time record of 114 360 looks to be just out of reach even with a standing-room-only crowd.
Toronto FC will represent Canada at the 2019 CONCACAF Champions League For the third time in a row, and seventh time in club history, Toronto FC lifts the Voyageurs Cup.#CanChamp pic.twitter.com/zffr6MgfxZ— Canada Soccer (@CanadaSoccerEN) August 16, 2018
This tournament is struggling. New format is needed and coming. By my rough count the attendance will come in around 15,000. So the building is half empty.— Duane Rollins (@24thminute) August 15, 2018
I also imagine the weather kept casuals away. Duane Rollins is apparently the Rain Man of guessing attendance. Official number is 14 994.
A fun game if you are a Toronto fan. TFC is having a bad year in the league standings (by their recent standards, anyway) but I'm optimistic they will be back in form by the time the CCL rolls around and will represent Canada well. Not so fun a game if you've a Vancouver fan but I guess Doneil Henry doesn't have to feel too bad about that own goal now. Total attendance for the tournament was 93 250 or more like 96 000 if you allow estimated crowds for the home D3 games. Either is good enough for third all time. I boldly predict a record breaking total attendance next year as we jump from six to at least thirteen teams! We should also easily go over 1 000 000 all time as the all time total is already over 930 000.
Finally, before we add the CPL teams next year, this is probably a good time to review the interdivisional results. All time, we have the following: D1 (MLS) versus D2 games are 19 wins by MLS (63%), 6 draws (20%), and 5 wins by D2 (17%) The D2 team has won both (100%) of the 2 matches between D2 and D3 teams. There have been no D1 versus D3 matches. I'm very curious to see how the results pan out when we start seeing MLS versus CPL games.