2016 MLS Week 19 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ptref, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    07/13/2016

    Columbus Crew v Toronto FC
    MAPFRE Stadium (7:00pm ET)
    REF: ROBERT SIBIGA
    AR1: Jeff Muschik
    AR2: James Conlee
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos

    New York Red Bulls v Orlando City
    Red Bull Arena (7:30pm ET)
    REF: SORIN STOICA
    AR1: Kermit Quisenberry
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: Mark Kadlecik

    Chicago Fire v Sporting Kansas City
    Toyota Park (8:30pm ET)
    REF: NIMA SAGHAFI
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Gianni Facchini
    4TH: Alan Kelly

    Seattle Sounders v FC Dallas
    CenturyLink Field (10:30pm ET)
    REF: RICARDO SALAZAR
    AR1: Peter Balciunas
    AR2: Corey Rockwell
    4TH: Dave Gantar

    Portland Timbers v Montreal Impact
    Providence Park (10:30pm ET)
    REF: ALLEN CHAPMAN
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Juan Guzman

    Vancouver Whitecaps v Real Salt Lake
    BC Place (10:30pm ET)
    REF: JOSE CARLOS RIVERO
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Michael Kampmeinert
    4TH: Baboucarr Jallow

    07/15/2016

    LA Galaxy v Houston Dynamo
    StubHub Center (11:00pm ET)
    REF: MARK GEIGER
    AR1: Eric Boria
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Alex Chilowicz

    07/16/2016

    Columbus Crew v D.C. United
    MAPFRE Stadium (7:30pm ET)
    REF: SILVIU PETRESCU
    AR1: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    AR2: Jeffrey Greeson
    4TH: Daniel Radford

    FC Dallas v Chicago Fire
    Toyota Stadium (9:00pm ET)
    REF: BALDOMERO TOLEDO
    AR1: Kevin Klinger
    AR2: Chris Strickland
    4TH: Edvin Jurisevic

    Colorado Rapids v Sporting Kansas City
    Dick's Sporting Goods Park (9:00pm ET)
    REF: DREW FISCHER
    AR1: Daniel Belleau
    AR2: Jonathan Johnson
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira

    Real Salt Lake v New England Revolution
    Rio Tinto Stadium (10:00pm ET)
    REF: ISMAIL ELFATH
    AR1: Craig Lowry
    AR2: Apolinar Mariscal
    4TH: Jaime Herrera

    Vancouver Whitecaps v Orlando City
    BC Place (10:00pm ET)
    REF: HILARIO GRAJEDA
    AR1: Eduardo Mariscal
    AR2: Cameron Blanchard
    4TH: Dave Gantar

    San Jose Earthquakes v Toronto FC
    Avaya Stadium (10:30pm ET)
    REF: ALEJANDRO MARISCAL
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Allen Chapman

    07/17/2016

    Portland Timbers v Seattle Sounders
    Providence Park (3:00pm ET)
    REF: JAIR MARRUFO
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Jeff Hosking
    4TH: Mark Geiger

    Montreal Impact v New York City
    Saputo Stadium (5:00pm ET)
    REF: ARMANDO VILLARREAL
    AR1: Joe Fletcher
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Mathieu Bourdeau

    Philadelphia Union v New York Red Bulls
    Talen Energy Stadium (7:00pm ET)
    REF: ALAN KELLY
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: Eric Weisbrod
    4TH: Robert Sibiga
     
  2. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    2 big things that I notice right away.

    #1. Lots of games (16) this week
    #2. Alejandro Mariscal, who is listed as a 4O on the roster, gets his first MLS referee assignment since 2010
     
  3. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I thought I would never see the day, that Alex would get another middle in MLS. Well done.

    Has to be some kind of record for longest time between centers.
     
  4. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Next week is another Open Cup week, so its possible they are getting these extra games in now instead of trying to catch up later.
     
  5. colman1860

    colman1860 Member

    Nov 13, 2012
    London, England
    And maybe trying to exploit the quietest two days on the sporting calendar - Wednesday and Thursday after MLB's Allstar game. No MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL, NCAA...the only surprising thing to me is that it's not a full slate of MLS games.
     
  6. TLR2

    TLR2 Member

    Mar 26, 2016
    Club:
    Everton FC
    What color do y'all have here?

    753425332586291200 is not a valid tweet id
     
  7. bhooks

    bhooks Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Looks like studs go into him once while they are running, then again once they go to ground. Not playing the ball, above the ankle challenge, red card for me.
     
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  8. shawn12011

    shawn12011 Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Reisterstown, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  9. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I concur doctor.

    Looks red to me all day long.
     
    TLR2 repped this.
  10. timtheref

    timtheref Member

    Aug 23, 2010
    What about the other red card in this one? Anyone thinking either red for both or yellow for both? It looks like the first foul is worse than the retaliation, but receives less punishment.
     
  11. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I even see movement to the ball. That's a good call. Extra points for getting the right guy too.
     
    shawn12011 repped this.
  12. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a very hard play to call. On the one hand (see what I did there?), the first foul is probably a caution. I think its likely the crew missed the elbow, and the caution was simply for the foul itself. At the same time, Dempsey smacked him in the head with both hands--he got him in the face and the back of the head. One of those being an accident, or the result of the force of the tackle, I buy. But both? So that's likely going to be red.
    On the other hand...Ortiz gets a caution for a totally punk foul that hit Dempsey with waaay more force than Dempsey retaliated with. So that's lame that Dempsey gets sent. I personally think two cautions would have been justice, but Dempsey has been around long enough to know that players like Ortiz gun for him to try and provoke him, and if he caves in Ortiz wins. Its lame, but the reality of life.
    I really think a deciding factor in Salazar's mind was that a RC evens things at 10. Although 9 v. 10 would have made it a fun game to watch.
     
    shawn12011 repped this.
  13. timtheref

    timtheref Member

    Aug 23, 2010
    For the record, I don't give a crap about either team, so I'm not trying to argue that Dempsey should not have been sent. I think with the Laws and directives we've been given, there wasn't much choice there. I just think it's unfortunate that the guy who commits arguable the worse offense continues to play. Not really justice. Trying to figure out the best way to handle these types of situations in the lower than MLS games that most of us do. And I do agree that catching the elbow, depending on where this is on the field and who can see the front side of this challenge, is going to be incredibly difficult.
     
  14. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you think Dempsey's rep worked against him? We've seen (at least since he's moved back to MLS) a number of occasions where he got an "extra shot" hidden as an accident in.
     
  15. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I feel like Ortiz sold that, a lot. Should Dempsey have swiped at him? No. Remember Jermaine Jones in the Copa last month. But did he hit him as hard as Ortiz made it out ? No.

    How about a yellow for Ortiz for the foul. Then a red to Dempsey for the contact to the head/face. Then second yellow to Ortiz for the flop. How would that have played out?
     
  16. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That would have been better justice, probably, but also impossible to sell.

    Honestly, I think Salazar got it exactly right. It's one of those situations that feels a little unfair, but by the rules it seems pretty obvious to me that Ortiz committed a reckless foul, and Dempsey reacted violently. Maybe you could argue that Ortiz comitted VC with the elbow, but I don't think I'd buy it, as wthout the Dempsey reaction we'd never see red for that challenge.
     
  17. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    Anybody see the lone goal in this game?
    Chicago Fire v Sporting Kansas City
    REF: NIMA SAGHAFI

    00:50 of the game review, turn up the sound:
    http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2016-07-13-chicago-fire-vs-sporting-kansas-city/recap

    Very unclear whistling from Saghafi.
    Assuming all the whistle sounds come from the Ref, and not from the stands or elsewhere, this is not a clean restart.
    A couple of whistles usually means wait. Then, play restarts before the final tweet. Some KC players appeal, Vermes goes crazy (shocking!). Goal stands.
     
  18. TLR2

    TLR2 Member

    Mar 26, 2016
    Club:
    Everton FC
    After the game Chapman admitted he got it wrong. What is interesting is I think this is his first game back to MLS action since the DeJong debacle... And here is another similar miss.

    upload_2016-7-14_10-9-39.png

    I think his ability to admit his mistake is admirable. But, darn Portland has to be pissed that this happened again.
     
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  19. Bradley Smith

    Bradley Smith Member

    Jul 29, 2013
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    He's had 8 MLS assignments since that match.
     
  20. TLR2

    TLR2 Member

    Mar 26, 2016
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Thanks, I just haven't seen him then... I thought for some reason it seemed odd, but on my phone it was too tough to go back and look. Cheers!
     
  21. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And I think his first game back (or maybe second), he did give a straight red for a challenge too.
     
  22. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You mean like 3 cases of VC in Copa America he all got away with? Maybe that's why he keeps hitting people in the face. He knows refs either miss it or don't have the balls to enforce the LOTG.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let's not forget that Dempsey started the WC2010 Slovenia match by elbowing an opponent in the head 10 seconds into the match. If a red card had been given, he would have set the record for the quickest send off at a World Cup by a solid 30 seconds. It was an obvious straight red card, FIFA has since used the foul in their instruction clips to show it as an example of such a red card, but the referee, Coulibaly, didn't sanction it. I seem to remember him having trouble throughout that match.
     
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  24. AlextheRef

    AlextheRef Member

    Jun 29, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First, I agree with Allen Chapman that the foul should have been a red card.

    Second, the FC Dallas send off was absolutely correct. I'd contend that it was deliberate. He moved his body, and his arm, to block that shot.

    Third, Dempsey's red. Man, that seems unjust. I'd be going yellow/yellow in a game I refereed. However, I'm not in the MLS (for a reason), and I don't know what the instruction this season has been on retaliatory contact to the face. There's no question that Dempsey hit Ortiz intentionally, though.

    Fourth:
    I saw the match, and I'm curious as to what others on the board think they should do here. There's a good learning point for restart management at a higher level.

    Here's what's going on:
    1) There's a foul near the technical area, the referee does the right thing by heading to the proper position if there is a quick restart.
    2) The defending team has a player standing within 3 yards of the restart. Obviously attempting to delay a quick restart without getting a caution. Oh, to make things even better, the defending team's coach is outside his technical area within 5 yards of the whole thing.
    3) It's unclear if the attacking team asks for distance. Judging from the result of the play, they don't.

    Here, Nima Saghafi decides to use his whistle administratively to get SKC to back up, but he does this AS the ball is being played for a quick restart. Within 7-8 seconds, the ball is in the net. What should Nima and his crew do at this point? Allow the goal? Disallow the goal? What could he have done differently in the management of the restart?

    As to the "what do we do now" question:
    I'm not an instructor or an assessor, and I'm also from the Chicago area...so maybe I'm biased. But I think you kind of HAVE to allow the goal at that point in the interest of fairness. Teams that were fouled are entitled for quick free kicks. The defending team, on the other hand, is entitled to a fair restart. You have a team here (SKC) that fouled another team and is infringing on the laws of the game. You have the fouled team attempting to play quickly (Fire), and they successfully do so. The players don't stop playing as the quick restart is given, and SKC's defensive position was not jeopardized as a result of the referee's actions. The proximate cause of the goal wasn't confusion from the administrative whistle, it was just poor defending. Therefore, shouldn't you err on the side of attacking play and allow the goal?

    As to the "what should have happened" question:
    I'm kind of at a loss here as to what the best answer is. I suppose the simplest solution is to not do anything at all until the team asks for ten; but then you lose a bit of credibility by not enforcing the laws on encroachment early on in the match. If the solution is to "use presence," "use personality," or "use your voice," then the same result ensues. You've made the restart ceremonial, and the coach who is right there is going to go bonkers anyway. Once you've used your voice, or used your whistle, subsequently breaking up that promising attack because you jumped the gun on restart management is going to lose you a whole bunch of credibility as well.
     
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  25. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member+

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    1) In last night's Red Bulls/Orlando FC match, Sorin Stoica whistles a PK for a handball against Seb Hines, but the ball actually cracks him in the face. Understandable once you see how his arms go flailing out, and reverses the call (the Red Bulls scored on the corner kick restart anyway):

    http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...-bulls-vs-orlando-city-sc/details/video/82249

    In the audio, Messing is claiming it's the AR that informed him, but it appeared to me it was 4th official Kadlecik.

    2) Quisenberry pops the flag for an offside late in the match, but an Orlando FC defender made a deliberate play for the ball and could have led to a Red Bulls breakaway. The glare Stoica gives him for several seconds is priceless (no video available for this one).
     

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