2010 Seeding Formula: January 2008 update

Discussion in 'World Cup 2010: General' started by Edgar, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Re: France or Portugal?

    :rolleyes:


    @Dr. Gamera: It's totally impossible that Uruguay or Cameroon or Cote d'Ivore become seeded.
     
  2. GoodDead

    GoodDead Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 8, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Club:
    Sporting Braga
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Re: France or Portugal?

    I think you are interpreting some numbers in a very unique way to say the least.
     
  3. ArkUnited

    ArkUnited Member

    Jul 2, 2009
    Fayetteville, AR
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  4. Andy TAUS

    Andy TAUS Member

    Jan 31, 2004
    Sydney, AUS
    Re: France or Portugal?

    Don't you believe me? :rolleyes:
     
  5. Edgar

    Edgar Member

    Re: France or Portugal?

    He's talking about the FIFA Ranking - i.e. Cameroon or some other team to climb between Portugal and France, thus getting more points for Portugal.
     
  6. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Re: France or Portugal?

    No, I don't. Maybe you can show me a case where a UEFA president helped his national team during a FIFA competition.
     
  7. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    How would the seeding picture change if FIFA required seeded teams to win their WC qualifying group? This cycle, such a rule would eliminate teams like France, Portugal, Mexico and Argentina - even allowing CONMEBOL a second seeding slot {Paraguay, this cycle}.
     
  8. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member+

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It would be interesting for them to just use the FIFA Ranking to seed the top 7 teams. I don't think anyone could necessarily argue it.

    It would be convenient that Argentina has managed to jump up to the top 7, and Russia fell out. If Edgar wasn't tracking this so closely, it'd be tempting to say 'conspiracy';)

    Looking forward to the November projection.
     
  9. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    Er, how does this proposed rule deny a seed to 4th-place Argentina but give a seed to 3rd-place Paraguay?
     
  10. scmcbride21

    scmcbride21 New Member

    May 9, 2006
    United States
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Chile actually finished second in South America.
     
  11. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    just going on the fifa rankings would be absurd, as those rankings are deeply flawed. The system they use now is good with 50% of the points being from how well u performed in the last 2 WC's and 50% fifa rankings.
     
  12. DLee

    DLee Member

    Apr 24, 2006
    Chicago
    Can South Africa be drawn with another African team?
     
  13. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

    Dec 14, 2005
    Boston, MA, USA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No.
     
  14. seadondo

    seadondo Member

    Apr 8, 2008
    Redondo Beach
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The way I see it, France would have to drop below Russia in the next FIFA rankings in order for Portugal to tie with France.

    It still angers me that Mexico is ahead of the US in terms of seeding points*.

    *This assumes the seeding points are calculated the same as they were in 2006.
     
  15. Andy TAUS

    Andy TAUS Member

    Jan 31, 2004
    Sydney, AUS
    IIRC that was the previous WC (2002) seeding "methodology", whereas the just passed WC (2006) seeding "methodology" only had 1 past WC performance as its 50% WC weighting.

    Also the 50% FIFA bottle-top rankings had their span of duration reduced from 8 to 4 years at the same time.
     
  16. Andy TAUS

    Andy TAUS Member

    Jan 31, 2004
    Sydney, AUS
    Pretty brave assumption, in the light of FIFA's penchant for fiddling on these matters.
     
  17. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, if we hadn't gotten bounced out at group in '06 they wouldn't be.

    And it wouldn't matter anyway, Mexico won't be seeded, and neither will USA.

    I do think they should go 4 pots, regardless of confederation, and seed them prior to the draw, then place the confederation restrictions.

    Something like this:
    Pot 1 (seed): South Africa, Brazil, Italy, Spain, Germany, England, Argentina, France
    Pot 2: Portugal, Netherlands, Russia, Switzerland, Paraguay, Mexico, USA, Ghana
    Pot 3: Chile, Cameroon, Cote d'Ivoire, Denmark, Greece, Australia, Serbia, Korea Rep
    Pot 4: Slovakia, Algeria, Tunisia, Japan, North Korea, Honduras, Bahrain/NZ, Uruguay/Honduras.

    If Uruguay wins, they go to pot 3, and drop Korea down. It's not like there aren't going to be tough groups this way, but if we love "Groups of Death" so much, why not use them in qualifying?
     
  18. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    ive always advocated this, these pots look much more even to me, FIFA needs to get their head out of their a$$ and use such a system, we can still have it so not more than one confed(besides euros) are not in the same group.
     
  19. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member+

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, I'd say they're less flawed than the way they used last time. As pointed out by scaryice here.

    I wonder what we'd get if we used just the most recent ranking as 50% of the formula and the last 2 WCs for the other half.
     
  20. MarNic

    MarNic New Member

    Mar 9, 2006
    NC
    This may have been covered before but in 2006 Brazil (as holders) were given top seed in Group F (before the draw).
    Will this be the case with Italy this year?
     
  21. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe Brazil was put in Group F so they could play in the bigger stadiums.
     
  22. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member+

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, if Edgar's projection ends up right, I have a hard time believing FIFA would use just the rankings. But there are a few games to be played between now and then that will have a major influence on how things end up.
     
  23. seadondo

    seadondo Member

    Apr 8, 2008
    Redondo Beach
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Using Edgar's November projections, these would be the seedings, assuming France and Portugal win. Some of the Africa qualifiers are still in doubt, and New Zealand just needs to win at home to beat out Bahrain, but only the France and Portugal results have an effect on the top 7.


    Code:
    [FONT=Courier New]Seed Country         Region   Total    WC     FIFA
     1   Brazil           CSF     59.33   29.33   30.00       
     2   Germany          UEFA    59.33   30.33   29.00       
     3   Italy            UEFA    56.67   27.33   29.33       
     4   Spain            UEFA    56.33   25.33   31.00       
     5   England          UEFA    50.33   26.33   24.00       
     6   France           UEFA    48.67   23.33   25.33       
     7   Argentina        CSF     48.67   21.00   27.67      
    -----------------------------------------
     8   Portugal         UEFA    47.33   22.33   25.00       
     9   Netherlands      UEFA    43.00   14.67   28.33       
    10   Mexico           CCCAF   37.33   19.33   18.00       
    11   Ukraine          UEFA    35.33   16.67   18.67       
    12   USA              CCCAF   34.33   13.67   20.67       
    13   Switzerland      UEFA    31.33   15.33   16.00       
    14   Paraguay         CSF     29.67   11.67   18.00       
    15   Russia           UEFA    26.67   3.00    23.67       
    16   Ghana            CAF     25.33   13.33   12.00       
    17   Japan            AFC     23.33   13.33   10.00       
    18   Korea Republic   AFC     23.33   15.67   7.67       
    19   Cameroon         CAF     22.67   3.00    19.67       
    20   Australia        AFC     22.00   11.33   10.67       
    21   Cote d'Ivoire    CAF     21.33   6.00    15.33       
    22   Serbia           UEFA    20.33   5.33    15.00       
    23   Denmark          UEFA    19.67   7.67    12.00       
    24   Uruguay          CSF     19.00   2.67    16.33       
    25   Tunisia          CAF     14.67   8.67    6.00       
    26   Chile            CSF     11.33   0.00    11.33       
    27   Honduras         CCCAF   7.33    0.00    7.33       
    28   Slovakia         UEFA    7.00    0.00    7.00       
    29   South Africa     CAF     5.67    3.00    2.67       
    30   Algeria          CAF     4.67    0.00    4.67       
    31   Bahrain          AFC     2.33    0.00    2.33       
    32   Korea DPR        AFC     1.33    0.00    1.33   [/FONT]
     
  24. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    Just to clarify, however, suppose France advances on away goals (or penalty kicks) with two draws, thereby ending up with about 1053 FIFA ranking points. (Or perhaps even with a win and a loss, thereby ending up with about 1088 FIFA ranking points.) Suppose Portugal advances with wins in both games of the two-game playoff, thereby ending up with 1181 FIFA ranking points. Now the results of some other teams start to become very interesting, as ranking two teams behind Portugal and above France results in a tie in the seeding formula, and ranking three or more teams behind Portugal and above France gives Portugal the edge in the seeding formula. Teams that could qualify to the World Cup and finish with between 1053 and 1181 FIFA ranking points include Germany, Argentina, England, Russia, and Greece.
     
  25. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    They're just making this up as they go along, that's the bottom line. That's why they haven't decided how they're going to do this yet. I personally have the feeling that if it's between Portugal and Holland, Holland will be seeded as the Dutch bring more fans and that way they can allocate a bigger stadium.
     

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