Re: No More Bouna time . . . Amazing that a guy who is not ranked in the top half of MLS keepers could be considered for Europe. I thought the quality of our league sucked. MOD Note: DoctorD's opening post might confuse some people - it was originally a response to a thread about Bouna Condoul at the African Cup. But since we already have one of those and this evolved into a nice discussion of GK from last season, this is the new first post. Cheers!
Re: No More Bouna time . . . What kind of rankings are you going by? Link please. The transfer window will determine his worth to the pros. Assuming he will be eligible for the UK because of his Senegal passport, I think he will surpass the $4M offer for Guzan. What is amazing is that MLS didn't draft him, or invite him to the combine. Or that no NCAA Div I college outside of a home state public college, offered him a scholarship.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . I admit to having an arbitrary, personal list. However, as I learned on Yanks Abroad. If you write short sentences in separate paragraphs. Then it gets stamped with authority. Anyway, I would rank (07 keepers) Guzan, Reis, Onstad, Perkins, Cannon, Pickens, and Rimando above Bouna. Granted Rimando had an above-average year. Bouna is very serviceable in the league and will get better. But he wasn't in the top half.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . Me too, and I was wondering how nothing got posted on the Rapids forums! Guzan, Reis, Onstand, and Cannon (though barely) I'll give you. Perkins, Pickens, and Rimando? Seriously? How many Rapids games did you watch last season? And your list, which I disagree with, barely puts him in the bottom half, 8th out of 13. Even if we split the difference in our lists that makes him tied for 6th of 13, in the top half.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . Stats off MLSnet.com GOALKEEPING LEADERS PLAYER TEAM GP MIN SHTS SVS GA GAA W-L-T SHO Pat Onstad HOU 27 2418 107 85 22 0.82 13-8-6 11 Brad Guzan CHV 27 2430 112 87 25 0.93 14-6-7 13 Bouna Coundoul COL 30 2668 152 120 32 1.08 9-12-8 9 Jon Conway NY 14 1143 71 57 14 1.10 6-5-2 4 Troy Perkins DC 29 2610 149 117 32 1.10 16-6-7 8 Matt Pickens CHI 27 2430 133 102 31 1.15 9-8-10 10 Nick Rimando RSL 27 2430 183 146 37 1.37 6-13-8 7 Matt Reis NE 30 2700 163 120 43 1.43 14-8-8 10 Will Hesmer CLB 20 1800 100 71 29 1.45 8-7-5 5 Kevin Hartman KC 30 2700 155 110 45 1.50 11-12-7 5 Joe Cannon LA 29 2610 165 119 46 1.59 9-13-7 5 Dario Sala DAL 18 1620 93 64 29 1.61 8-7-3 5 Kenny Stamatopoulos TOR 12 1080 61 41 20 1.67 1-8-3 2 Ronald Waterreus NY 18 1557 90 59 31 1.79 6-6-5 5 Sorry the format is bad but....as you can see, Bouna was third in the league in Goals Against Average and tied for second in saves. I'd say that puts him not only in the top half, but in the top 3. Listen, I'm not denying the guy makes some bonehead plays from time to time - but he makes up for it with sheer, natural brilliance. And let's not forget, last season was his first as a full time starter and his is quite young. Combine the youth, lack of experience and obvious talent and his potential makes him prime pickins (pun not intended) for the international market.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . Nice bait & switch with the title. That Senegal is out of the tournament is last week's news. It seems clear that the implication is that he's actually leaving MLS. Except you don't provide any "news" about that.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . It is meant to stir discussion of his leaving MLS. Not that he will before the season starts. BUT if he shines in MLS like he did in the Nations Cup, he will be gone by January. Surely he is on the radar with such amazing saves, his age, his performance against one of the most dangerous sides and the power the euro has over the dollar. He is a diamond. Also wanted to post before but could not start threads for some reason. Sorry for the late post.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . Why would you assume that? Even if he was from Nigeria or Kenya, that wouldn't get him an "in" to England.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . I thought the last of the 3 great saves was the best. With seconds remaining and the game tied, SA hits a ball off the post which rebounds across the 6 yard box in front of goal, going opposite to Bouna's momentum. Bouna stabs at it with a foot and perfectly lobs it out of the area and towards the touch line. Disaster averted. It might not be officially classified as a save because of definitions, but it "saved" the day.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . I don't know the rules related to UK permits for African passport holders and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Hopefully though, there is a loophole of sorts that will make him eligible.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . Unfortunately, partly due to the vagaries of MLS statkeeping, and partly due to the nature of the sport, it's difficult to numerically categorize goalkeepers. Save percentage (which for some reason MLS doesn't provide) might be a good metric to look at - but then again, it might not, given it doesn't account for the quality of shots faced, which is a function of the defenders. Here are those numbers, plus SV%, sorted by SV%. Code: GP Minutes Shots Saves GA GAA W L T SHO SV% Conway 14 1143 71 57 14 1.1 6 5 2 4 0.8 Rimando 27 2430 183 146 37 1.37 6 13 8 7 0.8 Onstad 27 2418 107 85 22 0.82 13 8 6 11 0.79 Coundoul 30 2668 152 120 32 1.08 9 12 8 9 0.79 Perkins 29 2610 149 117 32 1.1 16 6 7 8 0.79 Guzan 27 2430 112 87 25 0.93 14 6 7 13 0.78 Pickens 27 2430 133 102 31 1.15 9 8 10 10 0.77 Reis 30 2700 163 120 43 1.43 14 8 8 10 0.74 Cannon 29 2610 165 119 46 1.59 9 13 7 5 0.72 Hesmer 20 1800 100 71 29 1.45 8 7 5 5 0.71 Hartman 30 2700 155 110 45 1.5 11 12 7 5 0.71 Sala 18 1620 93 64 29 1.61 8 7 3 5 0.69 Stamatopoulos 12 1080 61 41 20 1.67 1 8 3 2 0.67 Waterreus 18 1557 90 59 31 1.79 6 6 5 5 0.66 If you went by save percentage, you'd have to say Rimando is the best keeper in MLS which is absolute rubbish. And it'd put Cannon way down below where he probably belongs. You know, I just don't rate Coundoul that highly. He's got terrific athleticism, but there are a lot of other keepers in MLS who I think are better positionally, and less prone to howlers. He's like the David James of MLS.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . And yet, looking at all the stats you posted: Games Played - Tied for 1st Minutes - 3rd Shots Faced - 2nd Saves - Tied for 3rd Goals - Tied for 9th Goals Against Average - 3rd Shutouts - 5th Save % - Tied for 3rd So 7 of the 8 stats he's in the top half of the league, 6 of the 8 he's in the top 3. Even if you drop games/minutes which aren't really a measure of his skill you're looking at 5 of 6 and 4 of 6. Bouna's major problem is his habit of going walkabout when he shouldn't, but I can't think of a case last year where he really got burned on it. A couple of close calls (Late in the final game he should have given up a goal from near midfield, but it was FSL so they missed, as expected)
Re: No More Bouna time . . . Yeah, but most of the stats he does well in are "counting" stats. I mean, so he's tied for 1st in games played. Do you really think that's much of a point in his favor? I don't. If you want to go down that road, fine...the most important stat for a keeper is goals allowed, and he's tied for 9th. So he kinda sucks. Now, I don't believe that, but if you want to put so much emphasis on counting stats, there you are.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . i love all you guys bagging on rimando, did you actually watch a minute of RSL last year? rimando played amazing for almost the entire year. its not rimando's fault that you could pave a freeway through RSL's defense to the goal. with a defense as bad as RSL's all the keepers in MLS would have bad stats. rimando was easily top 3 keeper last season and should have had serious consideration for keeper of the year. he's the only thing that saved RSL from seriously terrible score lines last year, like 5-1 bad scorelines.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . I figured I should quote my whole line, instead of just the section you snipped out. You'll notice I specifically removed games played and minutes from the second half of my point, for exactly the reasons you stated. He's 9th in goals allowed, but second in shots faced and 3rd in saved. If he had faced 200 shots and saved 170 of them he'd still have let in 30 goals, whould would look bad, but he'd set an MLS record for saves in a season. Since a GK can hardly control the number of shots he faces, I'm not sure you can place the blame for all 32 goals on Bouna. And yes, that goes for all the other keepers as well. I'd say that for that reason goals allowed is a particularly bad stat to judge goalkeepers by. I realize that goes against instinct, but for much the same reason that ERA isn't a particularly good judge of a pitcher's value in baseball, goals allowed isn't a good judge of a goalkeeper's talent.
So what's the deal with the title of this thread? Is Bouna leaving or not? I listen to the Colorado soccer talk show every week and read the Rapids website and haven't heard anything about Bouna leaving.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . The best GK stat available in the MLSNet stats is saves percentage. That still puts Condoul 3rd last season, but I just thought I'd note that GAA is a particularly bad stat. Carry on.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . There's no doubt, he was stellar last season. It was also a complete aberration compared to the rest of his career, where he's been pretty dreadful. This a serious flaw for me. It's pretty clear he was great last season, but there are a bunch of other goalkeepers in MLS I'd prefer on my team for exactly this reason. He's going to give up a some big goals thruout his career because of this.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . Scouts will often talk of players' floors and ceilings in regards to their future potential. I know this is a pretty subjective thing but it's a reason I find Bouna to be one of the top keepers in MLS. I feel like the kid has a real lack of top level experience but, despite that (and his other flaws mentioned in this thread) he still managed to finish atop the league in many major statistics. The thing with Bouna, versus many other keepers in MLS, is that his natural assets are simply quite rare - the majority of his flaws are completely coachable. He has a very high ceiling and thus immense room for growth. He's pretty damn good right now and he'll only get better. That's a building block I'd take on my team any day.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . Of course the Rapids fired the only pro GK coach Bouna's had in the offseason. He is now working for Chivas USA.
Re: No More Bouna time . . . I'm not sure that Calamity James ever sorted out how to handle a cross, and he's had the best coaching money can buy. You can't coach athleticism, but you can't always coach good decision making either. Some players have the capacity to improve in decision making, some don't. (Compare Maurice Clarett to Troy Smith as an example of two players who took instruction on good decision making completely differently.)
Re: No More Bouna time . . . I vaguely remember reading about three non-EU countries whose players can get into the UK via a loophole created by various trade agreements. These are Senegal, Gambia, and one of the former Soviet republics (Azerbaijan, I think).
Re: No More Bouna time . . . Interesting. You'd think the Azeri exception was out of respect for the linesman who gave them the '66 World Cup goal . Although I don't think a single Azeri has played over there