2007/2008 BVB General Discussion Thread [R]

See, that's where you're wrong. I never let Amoroso off any damned hook.

I just don't feel the need to repeat what he did over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again as you do!

I've told you more than ten or twenty times in our many discussions over what happened that what Amoroso did was totally wrong! All I said in his defense is that you need to understand what drove him to it!

You always write like I condone what Amoroso did and that's f#cking dead wrong!

The points I made about Sammer today is because I was discussing WHAT DROVE US TO NEAR-BANKRUPTCY!!

You blamed management for buying "names" but you never seem to mention that the real reason they had to buy those "names" was to satisfy their coach who could motivate, but not teach!

But I also remember when I warned everyone back then that there were problems at the club, you were one of the people who thought the club could do no wrong.

Now some of us know much about what went on during that time and Sammer was at the root of it.

No, this doesn't forgive what Amoroso did or make what he did acceptable.

But it certainly explains a whole hell of a lot!!!

Sometimes you can be like a crybaby when it comes to his Amoroso situation. How about trying to be a freakin' adult and see both sides of the situation?

 

Wrong there too.

As I said, Jürgen Röber's record with young players at Hertha speaks for itself.

Jürgen Röber's problem at BVB was with players like Metzelder, who he called out by name.

 

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Dede suffered a major knee injury when he was young too.

Didn't stop him.

Maybe it is a question of Lars Ricken lacking "heart......"

 

Wandi, did you mean this message?? I see nothing wrong with what he says here.

He even acknowledges that the core of the team should be German. He says we need good foreigners and I think he's right.

As I said before, we can't afford the best German players anymore and it doesn't help when they all want to go to Bayern, Bremen, Schalke, or HSV.

Also, in my last message, I forgot to list Leverkusen.

I really hope this isn't the message you mean because I see nothing wrong with this message from "BVB."

Did you get upset at his Kringe comment?? That's actually one of the more "tame" remarks he's made about Kringe here and elsewhere. I don't think he said anything unreasonable in this message.

Even though there are still times I think he talks too much crap.

I'm sure he feels the same about me! LOL!!

 

That guy is named Jürgen Klopp

 

Yeah, then why did you go off on him again just because I mentioned Sammer's part in the club's downfall??

Sure. Just as it is mine to point out when you're being unfair about the situation.

 

Thanks for showing me that. That's one of his I simply dismissed as him talking shit.

Because that's exactly what he was doing. Talking shit about someone he apparently knows nothing about.

 

You must have a very low standard of the word "great". The only one you wrote who has shown he has "great talent" is Sahin.

However, having "great talent" and using it to become a "great player" are two entirely different things.

Nothe showed promise last season. Don't see where it was "great talent."

I don't put much stock in U19, U20 and U21 performances. Many of those players never become anything. Tyrala is fast becoming one of those players. He can play with the kids, but he can't seem to handle playing with the big boys.

If the club thought Tyrala was ever going to reach that potential, there would have never been a reason to buy Kuba.

Kruska is a pretty decent player. I like his potential to advance under Klopp.

I agree on Brzenska. I don't think you guys have a f#cking clue about Amedick. A couple of bad games with him playing out of position in a few of them and you guys write him off.

Glad you guys aren't running the club.

Can he lead the defense? No. Not at this point. He did regress under Doll. But you guys aren't going to tell me that a guy who was looked at as being one of the cornerstones of the future under one coach just lost all his ability under another one.

I think Amedick would show these guys something under a coach like Klopp. Amedick looked like our future in central defense under BvM and then Doll comes in and Amedick is all of a sudden crap?

I think this Amedick thing is all f#cking bullshit. Remember, when people first started demanding Zorc be fired, Watzke pointed to his signing not just Frei, but Amedick too as proof that Zorc was a good sport director!!!!

I think what we saw was a player with talent learning and PROGRESSING under one coach (BvM) and cracking under the pressure to perform above his level with no teaching or instruction from the other coach (Doll).

Even Brzenska played well under BvM, but Amedick still took his spot. The fact of the matter is thanks to the new purchases, Amedick and Brzenska most likely won't be around this season.

But I hope the club won't make any moves before training camp starts. I feel Subotic will work out because of his familiarity with Klopp. But I don't know about Santana.

We'll see what happens, but I think you guys bashing Amedick don't know what the f#ck you're talking about.

 

This is more of the "shit" I'm talking about.

 

I didn't say I thought Amedick was our "best defender." Last season, I thought that was Kovac. But as far as our best "future" defender, yes, before our purchases of Subotic and Santana, I thought it was Amedick.

If that is what you mean, then yes, I agree. As you know, I think we have three players who were "victimized" by Thomas Doll.


Giovanni Federico: I think Federico would have put up much better offensive numbers if idiot f#cking Doll had shown the same confidence in him that he put in useless f#cking Nelson Valdez.

What's funny is that people here in Germany talk the same shit about Federico that "BVB" is talking about Amedick and Eggert. Here's a good stat to think about for people who like to talk shit about Federico and praise Doll.

Yes, there are some of those people. Especially in the Dortmund area.

Depending on whose total you go by, Federico either had 12 or 14 scorer points this season. That's goals and assists. Three of Federico's four goals won matches for us this past season. Some say he had 8 assists this season, some, including the club, say he had 10.

What did Nelson Valdez, who Doll favored so much over Federico do? What did he do?

4 scorer points and as far as I am concerned, he should have only had 2!!

Why? He had three goals this season. He should have only had one!

One of the goals Valdez is "credited" with was an own-goal by Stuttgart's Matthieu Delpierre. I think the club actually begged the league to credit Valdez with the goal. Delpierre put the ball past his own keeper and Valdez busted his ass trying to touch it before it got over the goal line. He didn't manage to do that.

During the match, they even gave Delpierre an own-goal, but after suspected prodding by BVB, the DFL "credited" Valdez with the goal. It was sick. "Trash-picking" at its very worst.

One of Valdez' other "goals" was a penalty in our 6-1 rout of Bielefeld that he basically snatched from the designated penalty taker (who ironically in this match was Petric), converted, and then celebrated as if he'd scored the winning goal, when that one made the score 5-0.

It was f#cking sick to watch, but Doll and the press preferred this sorry f#ck over Federico and I believe it bothered Federico all season.



Robert Kovac: I truly believe Kovac was the "victim" of a press and coach agenda to protect Christian Wörns' "legacy." I couldn't believe how much Wörns would f#ck up and the press would ultimately find a way to blame Kovac.

It didn't help when we played two weak teams like Rostock and Cottbus and then faced a then out-of-form Werder Bremen with Wörns and Brzenka, winning all three matches. People here really went after Kovac as a "bad signing" then, hailing Wörns and Brzenska as our best defensive duo.

When I wasn't angry as hell, I was laughing my head off because I couldn't believe the press and Doll were talking such ridiculous shit.

Of course, Wörns and Brzenska were exposed in the next two matches and while Wörns and Kovac failed again after that in Karlsruhe, again, Kovac got all the blame and Doll went back to Brzenska. We beat Bochum, but then we didn't win again for five matches, drawing three times and losing twice. One of the draws was a goalless draw against Bayern. The central defense? Brzenska and KOVAC!

We finally won again the next in Stuttgart 2-1. The central defense for that match? AMEDICK AND KOVAC!


The week after that was the 6-1 demolition of Bielefeld. Again, the central defense was Amedick and Kovac. And the goal wasn't even their fault. It came from down the left wing and was the shot that Weidenfeller let go right between his legs.

We got killed 4-0 the next week in Wolfsburg. Some guys had become "too satisfied" with themselves. The central defense. Amedick and Wörns!! It was the first time I'd seen Wörns be total crap and actually get blamed for it afterwards. But he dragged Amedick down with him.

That match was the first time other people thought, "Hey, maybe this isn't all Kovac's fault....."


and last but not least, the other guy victimized by Doll in my opinion is:


Martin Amedick: What a surprise eh? I just went into what Amedick and Kovac did in the Kovac column. What people don't seem to remember is that Amedick started after the break. He did pretty well in the 3-3 draw with Duisburg (Kringe and Ziegler were particularly bad in this match). Following that was his HORRIBLE match against Schalke, which is all anyone seems to remember. He did well against the two "weak" teams, Rostock and Cottbus, but then slipped off against Bremen. Bremen, who finished 2nd in the Bundesliga thanks to their potent offense and people blamed Amedick for us losing to them by a freakin' goal? Give me a break. Amedick was f#cking NAILS the next week in a 1-1 draw against Hertha, but the next week against HSV, we only lost 1-0, but Amedick got blamed for again what I thought was Wörns f#cking up! Amedick was caught out of position quite a few times in that match, but he was out of position because he was trying to cover Wörns' ass!!

Then Doll panicked because his ass was on the line. He joined the press in blaming Amedick. The next week we played a 3-3 in Bochum. Wörns played with Hummels. Again, Wörns was f#cking horrible, but everyone praised Hummels because he seemed to cover Wörns ass better than Amedick.

After that, Amedick didn't see the pitch for eight weeks until he made a stoppage time appearance to help secure our 3-2 home win over Stuttgart.

The final match of the season was the next week and Amedick went in after 68 minutes. All people remember is his looking bad on the final Wolfsburg goal.

What people didn't ask themselves was what was Amedick doing out on the right wing trying to stop a guy like Marcelinho anyhow??

The answer is easy. Rukavina and stupid ass Kringe both got caught forward and there was no one on that right side to stop Marcelinho. Amedick had to try something to at least slow the play and he did.

Most f#cking Bundesliga central defenders won't stop Marcelinho going full-speed with the ball on a f#cking breakaway. But again, people pointed the finger at Amedick.

No one noted that the sorry bastard Wörns didn't bother marking Grafite (I partially take that back, the match report at Fusballdaten.de says that "Grafite left Wörns standing"), who Marcelino passed to for Wolfsburg's fourth goal.

The only other thing Amedick could have possibly done was foul Marcelinho, but "stupid Amedick" (being sarcastic here!) was out there thinking Wörns had the striker covered. Now why would he think such a thing??

The things I just explained is why I tell people who talk shit about Martin Amedick that they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

People might say, "Well, why did management go out and buy two new central defenders?" My answer is because they are f#cking stupid themselves. These are the same idiots who gave Thomas Doll a two-year extension. I'm not saying we didn't need two new ones. I think we needed one new one for this season and one new one for next season. However, I didn't think we needed two for this season.

The good thing is, they are both buys for the future. Both could possibly contribute this season, but if one doesn't work out, their ages allow them to be "stashed" on the reserve team. Especially Subotic. But I don't see that happening as he is a "Klopp Project" and Klopp thinks he can contribute to the "big team" sometime this season.

Back to Amedick now. If he stays, Amedick still isn't quite ready to lead the defense, but with a coach who can teach him and show some confidence in him like Klopp, I think he could be an effective starter. Amedick is a "Metzelder-type" without all the injuries. The difference is, when Metzelder came up, he had guys like Kohler to guide and teach him. Amedick had sorry ass Wörns who acted like he didn't even like Amedick. I never thought Wörns would be a guy to f#ck the guy who would be his replacement, but he has. Didn't teach Amedick a f#cking thing.

But I think a guy like Klopp can get Amedick back on track.

The question is, "will he even be given the chance?"

As I said on the list, I don't think we should sell (if we find a buyer) Amedick before the end of training camp. I'm curious to know how Subotic and Santana will work out.

I saw a bit of Subotic at Mainz last season. A good friend of mine saw every match of his and thinks we got a steal. Subotic is a lot like Hummels, but doesn't handle the ball as well just yet.

Santana will be the key. How fast he can adapt, etc.

With us losing both Kovac and Hummels after the coming season, I think Amedick and Uwe Hünemeier could step right in.

One problem. Both their contracts expire after this season. If he is not sold, Amedick staying after this season will probably depend on what kind of chance he gets this season under Klopp. Hünemeier's contract has a club and player option for a three year extension. His staying will probably depend on the same thing. What his prospects are to reach the pro team after this coming season.

I don't see why we should keep buying defenders when we have pretty good ones at the club already who just need some teaching and work.

I think we should give Amedick at least one more season. Hünemeier definitely gets more time.

Brzenska? Sell his ass at the first opportunity. He works his ass off and is a really nice kid, but not worth keeping around right now.....

 

I shouldn't "admit" a f#cking thing. Eggert's chances are actually good to succeed in the 1. Liga if he can continue to be brought along well.

The 2. Liga experience should help him quite a bit.