2005 starting line-up

Are we getting screwed by MLS? I don't know about that. They are pretty much letting teams sink or swim on their own these days. They gave us an allocation for Donovan leaving and we only had to spend half of it to get Clark. That's not bad. I think.

Starting eleven:

- - - - - - - ONstad
Roner - Dayak - Robinson - Cochrane (Goldthwaite?)
- - - - - - - Clark
Mullan - - - Cerritos - - Davis
- - - - Ching - - Moreno


I think that's about the best we can do and it assumes that Ronald can play the attacking mid spot for us. Maybe we put O'Rouke in there and Cerritos is either a supersub, or pairs Ching up front. Goldthwaite is a left-side defender yes? If so, he starts at the left back spot, until the Mighty Wadester returns to the fold that is.

It's not a very intimidating squad. On the upside, the evil, cheating, water-stealing, galactovermin are dumping all of their offensive players for defenders. I think Sampson is going to employ a very crafty 6-3-1 formation.

Whether it's the league's doing, or the Quakes poor trades (Dunivant, Alvarez) I think we're going to need some K-Y. (ouch!)

GO QUAKES!!

- Mark

 

I would like to see:

_________Ching_________Antou___________

Davis____Dombrowski____O'Rourke____Mullan

Goldy_____Dayak_______Robinson_____Roner

_______________Conway_________________



But purely for personal reasons.

 

Why ask what the starting XI will be if the team hasn't finished adding players to the roster? Also, will we stick with the Yallop 4.4.2, or the the 3.5.2 Kinnear used at points during last season?

 

????

------Ching
-----------------Moreno
Davis----Cerritos
---------------------------Mullan
--------O'Rourke--Clark
-Robinson--Dayak--Cochrane

????

 

on paper, it seems like almost every position will have competetion for the starting XI....this is a good thing that hasn't really happened in the past few years....

 

If you are familiar with the movie "A Christmas Story, I'm inclined to believe that a "significant replacement allocation" is probably analogous to a "major award" in that parlance...

 

First let me say that a 3-5-2 is not suited for this line-up. Roblar, if we were to run out a 3-5-2 with our current lineup, believe me when I say that it would look identical to yours. However, that defense is just too slow, especially on the outside. Yes, it works with the cover of two defensive midfielders. But I'd rather so much defensive responsibility not fall on two young players (whether they be Clark, O'Rourke, or Dombrowski). This, coupled with the fact that Cerritos is not Mauricio Cianfuegos, means that a 3-5-2 formation leaves the team defensively and offensively vulnerable. Without a strong attacking midfielder, the wings are forced to cover defensively. This is problematic for two reasons. One, it means that the likely channel for offense next season (the wings) will be forced to do a lot of double duty. Two, Brad Davis would have to seriously improve his defensive ability before I would have the confidence to rely on him to provie defensive cover.

That aside, a poster in another thread pretty much nailed it when s/he mentioned that the most likely strategy next season is to run out two holding/defensive midfielders and channel the offense through the wings. That is (as this poster mentioned), return to Frank Yallop's preferred style of play. This could work, especially with two very talented wing players in Mullan and Davis, and three very talented central midfielders in Dombrowski, O'Rourke, and Clark.

However, in its current state, I'm not so sure the midfield can sustain any long-term injuries. It would appear that our only veteran cover is Ian Russel (unless I'm mistaking anybody), and this means that there aren't many talented veteran players rivalling for spots. Similar situations abound at all positions with the exception of goalkeeper. This could certainly be problematic in what is a very aggressive, physical league, and with a team badly needing some veteran leadership on the field and in the locker-room. Kinnear and Lalas really need to make it their priority to wisely use the team's remaining allocations to pick up veteran leadership from Central or South America for the midfield and at the forward position.

In the team's current incarnation, my starting eleven would look like the following:

Ching-----------------------------------Moreno

Davis------------------------------------Mullan

-------------Clark-------O'Rourke--------------

Goldwaithe----Robinson-------Cochrane----Klaas

--------------------Onstad---------------------

Some of the selections may seem questionable, but allow me to explain. First, I have not forgotten Tighe Dombrowski. In fact, I think it's quite possible that he could win the spot from O'Rourke (Clark's position is well secured in my opinion, although Kinnear may surprise us and play him at right back, a position he played occasionally while with the Metrostars).

As of right now, with Waibel's contract situation in limbo, and the Barrett situation not settled, the team has no other choice but to start Hart or a rookie at right back (Cochrane, Robinson, and Waibel are all too slow and too centrally oriented). I picked Klaas because I think he's capable of it. I don't want to start him, but I think he's a better option than Hart. Teams avoided him because he was small and that he couldn't cut it in the physical MLS. But by that logic (which I think is flat-out stupid American coaching), MLS teams should have passed on Steve Cherundolo had they been given the opportunity; but he's gone on to excel in the Bundesliga (by Kicker's estimation, he's one of the twenty best defenders in that league, perhaps the most physical league in the world). So I have to agree with Sigi Schmid when he said that San Jose may have gotten a steal in Klaas. He has the gifts, he just needs to refine them, and compensate for his lack of size with superior positioning and footskill, something he can learn from his coaches, both of whom were defenders.

In my opinion, there are still question marks at forward (although I think Moreno and Ching are both quality), and Kinnear and Lalas really need to go out and try to add depth at that position. I'm curious as to how this team will turn out, but this will be the year when Dominic's coaching ability can really be assessed and demonstrated. This is his squad now, and what he does with it could very likely impact the future of this franchise.

 

According the Quakes site, Klaas is 5'7" but 170. So if that's correct he's got a solid build and I don't think he'll get pushed around. And I was happy to see this in his bio:

"Fast, aggressive and high intensity player"

I'd love to see that kind of player playing right back for the Quakes. He and Mullan could wreak havoc on the right side.

 

He reminds me very much of Steve Cherundolo (as I mentioned). Perhaps it's the blatant Bruce Arena school of thought in MLS that keeps players like Klaas getting a fair rap. Cherundolo still hasn't asserted himself into the national team picture despite playing well in one of the most demanding defensive leagues in the world at a position for which we have no other alternative but Frankie Hejduk. I might be wrong; this bias may not exist, and may not have anything at all to do with Arena, but there is a blatant bias towards bigger defensive players in American soccer.

I'm more than certain that several MLS "pundits" were writing about the perception of Klaas as somehow being "too small" in the coverage leading up to the draft (hence why he fell so low). He's played well on the Junior National Team level, and with successful coaching, I think he could really excel in MLS, despite his shortcoming in height.

 

Regarding defenders:

I think when it comes down to it, the Bruce Arena School prefers "Snuffers" to "Ballers."

Sure Bruce would love a big intimidating guy who can stay in the shoes of an attacker AND play out of the back, but when the big game comes around his defenders are out there to snuff attacks. His fullbacks will get forward if they can, but they don't require real talent for doing so - they can dump the ball early if pressured.

I'd put Waibel firmly in this category.

And I'd rather watch a team with a centerback like Mastroenni, or wing-backs like Hart and Dunivant, who might sacrifice a bit of the snuffing ability but who are comfortable on the ball, can get forward and combine.

 

The newest incarnation of Ronald Cerritos (unless he has changed since last year) could very well play as a withdrawn forward/playmaker. The past two years he has been reluctant to shoot in the box, but he has been tireless at attempting to link between the midfield and the forward line.

He still plays much bigger than his size and is decent in a holding role. He is not quick and obviously is not as talented on the ball as Jaime Moreno, but I believe that one of the reasons that he didn't fit in well at DC was because they were both trying to do the same things last year.

I think that he would work very well with Ching, holding up the ball and drawing pressure to him to allow Ching space and room to get open. I don't think he is good enough to start or play all the time - but he will be a nice change from DeRosario, who has a penchent for putting his head down and trying to do too much by himself. Ronald will spot Ching and try to get him the ball.

He also gives you a lot of hard work playing defense in deeper forward positions - sometimes I think he is too concerned about ballwinning and now that he isn't that mobile - he lets himself get pulled out of position and is not ready to attack when the ball changes possession.

I think he is a pretty good pick-up for ya'll if he is not making too much money. He is definitely not a prima donna. But he will get frustrated if he does not play.

I think that your team did pretty well via the draft. Goldthwaite and Klass might not be ready to start right away, but they will probably be more helpful than most rookies. And you still have lots of steady players at the back in central defense. I think that Davis/Goldthwaite and Klass/O'Rourke (only to allow him to adjust in a less-demanding spot) might eventually be good candidates as wingbacks in a moderately defensive 352. You could use Cochrane, Dayak and Robinson/Roner/Waibel, as your CDs and let Rico Clark anchor in front of them. That would allow your attacking players to drop back and work off of Ching up front.

I haven't mentioned Brian Mullen - and that is partly because I think he may need to play up front a bit this year. I would start with him along the right side, but if Cerritos or Moreno don't have the pace to strike a good partnership with Ching, I would seriously consider pairing him with Mullen. It could be a partnership along the lines of Shearer/Bellamy at Newcastle United. This would depend (of course) on the ability of other players (Klass or O'Rourke) being good enough to slot in along the right in Mullen's position.

Without Mullen (or another dynamic, yet-to be signed player) up front, I don't think you will have enough speed to stretch other team's defenses. Davis or Cerritos could play in the hole behind Ching and Mullen/Moreno. I guess it all depends on the best way to get Mullen totally involved in the game. I think he is the X factor in your team's ability to score whether he is scoring goals or his running and passing are allowing other players to score. That is, unless Brad Davis really ups the ante.

I think that Kinnear has a lot of flexibilty with the players that he has at his disposal. And in your narrow home confines, at least, it is most important for you to maintain a lot of strength through the center of the field.

With a couple players still to be added - you could once again have a great team. I thnk the greatest potential weaknesses are going to be overall team athleticism, the ability of Kinnear to gameplan and re-assert the 'Quakes dominance at home (without forgetting how to adjust to different fields away from home) and the relative inexperience at key positions. Young Ryan Cochrane is going to have a lot of weight on his shoulders as the key linking player from the back and Rico Clark is going to have to play mentally strong soccer the whole game.

 

I don't know. BA likes bigger players at the outside backs - and I attribute this almost entirely to the demands of defending against set pieces at the international level. But at in the most recent stage of his stewardship, BA has gotten athletic midfielders and other players to play in the back slots (Hedjuk, Sanneh, Bobby Convey, Victorine, even Chris Albright, etc). Even Cory Gibbs used to play a good bit in midfield. He has gone away from "typical" left backs like David Regis and Greg Vanney.

These guys are nearly all pretty athletic and can get back on defense, but they also help to add a little safe width since our outside mids (recently DMB, sometimes Landon, Chris Klein, etc) sometimes drift inside or switch up.

I don't see many players like Waibel figuring anywhere within the Bruce Arena scheme - unless you consider Danny Califf. He likes greyhounds at every position.

 

I consider Regis and Vanney to be ballers. Notice who capped them - Steve Sampson, the guy who took Dunivant off our hands. These guys like to get forward and have the skills to do so.

Arena likes this type of player, and you give good examples. But get to the big show and you see the likes of Berhalter and Sanneh at outside back, and they're there for their snuffing ability. Even Hejduk was put on the left side and clearly instructed to stay more at home and hack the ball away.

You're right about greyhounds and set piece guys -- snuffers in my book, unless they've got the skills to handle the ball smoothly and construct from the back. Even Pope never really had that ability in my view, which on paper at least necessitated the inclusion of Agoos.

 

Berhalter hasn't started at outside back unless we're talking 352 and that is a totally different setup - its hard to have ballers from the back in a 352.

I think that a lot of the "lack of ballers" is just a lack of adequate players who are remotely athletic enough for "top-notch" international competition. Vanney simply cannot keep up because he gets caught upfield (unless we are playing Grenada) AND cannot get back into position quickly enough - even considering he has a good, quick defensive-minded player in DMB covering for him.

Even Cherundolo has been defensively challenged before he began growing leaps and bounds this season under a club coach who actually has a defensive scheme. I think that with his development - and the development of Cory Gibbs - that we will begin to see more "ballers" in the outside back positions. I would like to see Brian Mullen as USMNT right back, but for some reason it has never happened.

I think BA's biggest defensive challenge at this point is going to be how to handle the Pope to Marshall/Spector/Gooch/whomever transition.

 

yep.

 

Not certain about two of those points. My cobwebbed brain says Berhalter has played left back in a US 4-4-2. And I prefer at least two ballers in a three man back line.

And Regis lost the plot. But really I'd rather see my club team try to play with defenders who are well-rounded players albeit some defensive inadequacy.

"Leaps" was a poor choice of words, but I'd agree Steve is really coming along.

I don't see Gibbs being the kind of ranging wingback I'd hoped he'd be.

I thought Mullen did a great job filling in at fullback for the Quakes. Always wanted to see Chris Klein get a run at that position. They're both terrific material for 3-5-2 wing backs.

I think Mastro should be a six month lock at d-Mid or center back.

 

You're right, but no "very likely" about it. He's created it, made it, and he and we have got to go with it. This is a very crucial year.

 

A couple of players whose size might have been compared to C.J. based on their team website listings

Jay Heaps => 5-9:155
Steve Cherundolo => 5-8:151.8 (converted roughly from metric)
C.J Klaas => 5-7:170

Klaas's height may have and continue to hurt him, but I think when you talk about his bulk, this kid is rock solid. Nobody is going to be pushing around a 170lb back who is going to have his low center of gravity, their aint going to be the leverage there. Whether or not hes an ariel liabilty comes down to how well he learns how to position himself and muscle guys off of clean headers, and what kind of hops he has.

I myself think he looks like a steal when we got him in the draft, and have hopes he can contribute somewhere on the field this year, be it RB, RM, or as a DM/CM.

Just a visual reference, doesnt look like the kind of guy whos going to be pushed around if you ask me:

.

 

You are a lot more sold-out on the 352 than I am. I am not even really thinking about a 352. BA has only used that formation selectively. If we are talking historically about the USMNT over a longer time period - we have to talk about guys in terms of a 442 to be accurate. That being said, Beasley and 'Dolo would be my wide men in a 352 without a question.

I really don't think Berhalter has played left back in a 442. At least not in a big game.

And Regis lost the plot. But really I'd rather see my club team try to play with defenders who are well-rounded players albeit some defensive inadequacy.

I would ultimately like to see a 442 with the fullbacks playing more like wingbacks. In that case, I would prefer Gibbs and 'Dolo, with a strong affinity towards Mullen at right back. Gibbs is not attacking-oriented enough for wingback in 352, but in a 442 behind Beasley, I believe he (or Boca for that matter) attack well enough.

Again, I am not prepared to commit to 352 as much as you are.

And I think he needs to earn his way back. I like him better than Zavignin at peak performance, but if O'Brien, Reyna and/or others are healthy - I prefer them in the holding spot.

There is no way I would commit to Mastroeni at centerback.

Regarding your wanting two ballers in a three man backline - you have to commit to defense first with your outside backs in a three man backline. The center back or sweeper (depending on how he is deployed) needs to have good ball skills, but the other guys MUST be able to man-mark tight even if they are playing in a zonal system. Otherwise they are not pacy enough, defensive-minded enough players for the job.

Having really savvy, technically-gifted defenders is great and everything. But they have to be defenders first at the international level. The only teams that can get away with technique-oriented defenders are teams like Brazil and (on good days) Spain that can utterly dominate possession. Other nations like Italy and Holland have defenders with great ball skills - but they have to be great shut-down defenders too. Well, Holland does not always have shut-down defenders - but they never win without them.

 

As for our starting lineup, I think thats its premature to try and pencil it in.

Id say you could start with:

----- Ching - ***** ------
- Davis ----------Mullan --
----- **** - Clark --------
- ***** -------- ***** -
----- **** --- Dayak -----
-------- Onstad -----------

But there is a lot of uncertainty in most other places on the field. Dayak may not even be much of a lock, I just feel that his experience will get him the nod from Dom.

 

Man, why you got to cuss so much? I know we're bad, but you really shouldn't call Moreno "********".

 

Are you psychic or referring to some opinion of mine from a long time ago?

Mastroeni did nothing to lose his spot on the US except play one of the best games I've seen anyone play in a US jersey against Mexico. As center back. If you're talking about mediocre club play - you want O'Brien or Reyna in there?

IMO you're much better off with three solid ballers who can read the game, cover for each other intuitively and play comfortably, play out of trouble. Even with the presumably rigid German 3-5-2's of the late 80's you could find a Jurgen Kohler thrown up into the attack occasionally. Obviously I'm not talking about guys who can't defend: using the Quakes example, I'm talking Wes Hart vs. Craig Waibel.

It's always a matter of tweaking the formula with what you have for personnel. I'd take the "Baller" who gets beat 9% of the time versus the "Snuffer" who gets beat 5% of the time. If you pick the "Snuffer", you're sort of guaranteeing you'll be defending more because your possession game lacks support.

My experience is those less-skilled, dogged markers might get beat less, but more frequently create problems for themselves or end up in unpredictable situations they're not equipped to deal with.

Probably the bottom line to this part of our discussion is that you shouldn't try to slip a gross oversimplification past the master of such things.