1) is a yellow card automatic for apparent attempting to handle the ball (by an attacking player) if in fact the player doesn't actually handle the ball? 2) any reason for stoppage time not to be awarded if there are injury stoppages in the overtime of MLS games? Isn't it the same as regular time so as to prevent players from just feigning injury to get the game over. -KMJvet
Attempting to handle the ball is not a foul, therefor no yellow card. Injury time should be added if neccessary to MLS overtimes. Lest year, the New England Revolution lost a game in overtime stoppage time. Scott
Regarding question 2 Regarding question 2 and stoppage time in overtime of MLS: This is America, and being so, we fall to the mercy of the great god of TELEVISION. I have discussed this with several MLS referees, national instructors, and national assessors, and they all say the same thing. MLS is a business, and the business is concerned about $. Because of this overtime is strictly regulated at the MLS level, in order to keep the TV people happy. Unless there is a major, major stoppage you won't see much if any stoppage time in MLS overtimes. MLS referees are instructed to do whatever they can to proactively keep the stoppages to a minimum in overtime of televised games. Incidently, the television $ is the same reason for us having 2 five-minute OTs vs. FIFA standard 2 x 15 mins.
This is very enlightening, but also very worrisome. Maybe overtime should just be dropped? In the Quakes vs Wizard game, Gutierrez sat down in the 2nd overtime for just under a minute. Percentage-wise that's about 20% of the overtime period. There was no apparent reason for it because he was nowhere near the action. The referree went over to him, told the trainer not to come in, and made him get on with things. But the overtime was stopped promptly at the 10 minute mark despite the Quakes earning a corner kick. This didn't feel fair as a corner kick is usually thought of an important attacking advantage, and it made the ref look like an idiot for forgetting the stoppage time that had only occurred all of about a minute previously and would have easily allowed for the corner kick. Now I understand why the ref did it that it's not a matter of his competence. But it still seems silly to allow a team under fire and bunkered down to just sit out a significant percentage of the overtime if they choose to...rather not the spirit of the American game. -KMJvet
Using the ref of the Quakes v Wizards game as an example isn't a good idea, that guy was a complete joke. Surprisingly he is on the preferred list.
Actually I was rather upset with him at the end of the game, but once I watched the TV replay, he didn't seem so bad... I think I blamed him for what we're really linesman calls he didn't/couldn't really overrule. I can't really blame him on the stoppage time thing if the league has told them not to award it in overtime. I think he ran out of gas after 75 minutes, which is worrisome. I think he jawed too much with players from no apparent reason. I think he let Meola call the handball on Lagos, which would be really, really bad--but I can't prove. It may be in actuality that the linesman let Meola call it and then Prus went with what the linesman then called. I don't know. But I do think there should be goal-line officials to make those sort of calls. Compared to other MLS refs, he was okay. His linesmen just left lot of be desired. -KMJvet
The ARs in that game were two of the better MLS referees who have consistently shown great judgment in their calls and abilities. The center referee is the one calling the shots, not the ARs. I was AT the game, and also watched it on videotape with some fellow referees. You could tell just by the way the ref ran about the field and conducted himself (shrugging his shoulders to the players after they dissented his calls, giving thumbs up to the players left and right trying to "win" their affection) that he was not suited to be on the pitch at that level. I coulda swore I saw Fernando Alvarez up in the middle level so he may very well have been the assessor. He didn't look too happy to say the least.
actually attempting to handle the ball is a foul and if he is trying to stop a goal from happening it is automatic RED
This is not correct in any way, shape, or form. Law 12 lists the offense only as handles the ball deliberately. There is no "deliberately or attempts to deliberately handle the ball" as it would be listed following the format of the other offenses. Furthermore Law 12 says denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball. If a goal is scored then a goal was not denied. Therefore he has not denied an obvious goal or goal scoring opportunity by handling. Again it does not say "deliberately attempts to handle the ball." If a player deliberately handles the ball but the goal is still scored then there is no red card offense, it is a yellow card for unsporting behavior. If the player tries to handle the ball but misses there is no offense whatsoever, no matter whether a goal is scored or not, despite the intentions of the player. Please refrain from posting grossly inaccurate statements as truth without looking up the answer. It only serves to confuse referees who are still learning the LOTG that may read this board.
On this we'll have to disagree. I think there were too many mistakes with offsides, although I think that is sometimes a very hard call to make. I think the farside AR's attempt to mark off the wall was a crack-up...that was just too silly. I think the call of the ball being out on the corner kick that lead to the OG was very suspect on the tape, although he was in position to make the call and the tape may be deceiving so I'll reserve judgement on that. And I remember at two calls for "falling down" rather making the call based on what actually happened. Calls for who knocked the ball out on throw-ins were fine. Yes, I agree on this point. This is what I meant by he jawed excessively with the players for no apparent reason.
Oops, no this is wrong. This was in the Cyberrarys game. I take this back....getting my fixtures mixed up. -KMJvet
I actually know that referee. He's a good guy and calling another referee a complete joke isn't very professional. That referee is actually a former professional player and he does a lot of communicationg with the players on the pitch. I think he could be described as an active listener.
Well then perhaps you can implore your good guy friend to take a few refresher clinics so he won't be such a joke on the field anymore. His performance in that game was a disservice to all referees and makes us look bad in general. He needs to seek out a top level assessor to watch a few of his non-MLS games to learn what he does wrong. He just isn't ready for that level and it says a lot about MLS for using him in the first place. It's guys like him that make FIFA look at MLS and laugh when deciding whether to use our refs for the World Cup. I'm not going to support him simply because he bought a yellow uniform, professional or not. Hurtful words? You bet. Sometimes the truth hurts.
I just thought we were refraing from personally attacking referees. I just think your criticism went a little too far. Looking at a few individual calls is one thing, but calling someone a complete joke is something different. As matter of fact, I don't think the overall level of officiating has been exemplory so far either. I'll talk about a few calls here or there that I don't agree with like the send off of Moore in the Fire game, but I wouldn't call a guy a disgrace. Maybe that's just me, but that's fodder for the fan boards.
When has FIFA 'laughed' at our referees since the inception of MLS? On the contrary, Hall and Baharmast have faired incredibly well at the past two World Cups, and men like Tamberino and Stott have earned very favorable remarks at World Youth Cups over the same span of time. You could also look at Hall at the Confed Cup, Baharmast at the Olympics, and Valenzuela in CONCACAF WC Qualifiers to see that American referees have been viewed favorably by FIFA and the powers that be internationally. If you want to disagree with a referee's calls in an MLS match, then fine. But don't make it out to be more than that. It just feeds into the false belief (seemingly widely-held) that American referees don't perform well internationally. All evidence (both on the men's and women's side) points to the contrary.
The only reason Brian Hall got the nomination was due to the persistence of the higher ups in Ca-N. If you don't recall he hardly did any MLS matches leading up to the World Cup. This is because MLS wants refs to make calls that affect the game certain ways that jeopardize the credibility of the referee. When the FIFA panel watches something like that on tape it casts a negative view. Referees like Prus who do the premier level of soccer in the USA are viewed negatively by FIFA because of the pressure from MLS. How else do you think Terry was the 2002 MLS Ref of the Year? I am not saying it is impossible for referees from MLS to win the favor of FIFA. Your examples are the exception, not the rule. We do have a few phenomenal referees that have won favor by FIFA through their own dedication and hard work and breaking free from the negative stigma MLS attaches to its officials. There is a lot of politics powering soccer, no doubt it was politics that got Prus where he is currently. It certainly was not his ability, and that does reflect poorly on the rest of us. I am well aware we are not supposed to "attack" each other but I for one am sick and tired of half-ass referees winning political favor while others who truly deserve the recognition go unseen. It is this kind of crap that FIFA watches and it is why they don't take the United States very seriously. If we ever want US soccer to reach the prominence of European countries this needs to stop. Quickly.
I didn't see the game so I can't comment. But I don't think any MLS level referees deserve this by fellow referees. Please make constructive comments or specific fouls or plays that were missed. If you've refereed, you know that 90% accuracy is not always enough; and that on some plays you can't win. Someone will always think you're wrong. THANKS.
[rant] I can see where you're coming from, but sometimes I can't keep my mouth shut. It sometimes appears that even I would get that call right, and my most common situation is a U-12 kid who punts the ball over the half-line (illegal in our league - I hate that rule). For example, (exception to the rule) Terry Vaughn in the Rev-Fire game. I know I may be biased as a result of being a fierce, bleeds-red-white-and-blue Rev fan, but I still feel that game was not called properly, at least when it mattered. However, I disagree with many about the Crew-Rev game. I fully agree with the call on Franchino. I felt that was all that was merited, as he got the ball first, and only then did he bring the other leg around. (Don't flame me for that, I won't fight.) I've learned (to an extent) to keep my mouth shut about other refs, 'cause I probably couldn't do better. But JMM-red was the straw that broke the camel's back. [/rant] Prof
If I've refereed? If I haven't established my credibility on these boards through my posts in the past as one who has studied and refereed the game for many years then I should hang my hat up. 90% accuracy may not be enough, 70% accuracy may not, but less than 20% accuracy indicates a serious problem. "Please make constructive comments etc" -- there is no justice in limiting myself to only a few constructive comments based off a performance as horrible as Prus'. I guess the only way I could say it is: A perfect example in what NOT to do as a referee. MLS referees are like Ivy League college kids -- there are those that earned their way through years of dedication and hard work, and then there are those that got in because of who they know and how much *** they kissed.
I really have no clue which game you guys were watching, or at what level you guys are refereeing at, but that was a perfect example of MAN MANAGEMENT!!! The performance by Alex was actually the best performance of any referee that weekend (not only according to myself, but to the assessments)! His rapport with the players was great, he had good eye contact with his ARs, his foul selection was just about perfect (I can't say anything about the handling sit, had a bad angle of it) but besides that, he had the game perfectly under control, was where he needed to be, and I'd say his only negative attributes were that he looked like he almost skipped when he ran, and that he should have added some extra time for the gutierrez incidence. I know you guys aren't going to like this post, but hey, I speak from knowledge, take it as you will And as far as the Vaughn game a few weeks ago, he was harsh with the red card, and this was why Franchino was NOT sent off the past week. He was kept in the game because of last week's call plain and simple. This is D1 professional soccer in the US and that is the way the game works. Brian was cleaning up for Vaughn's mistake.
I'm not a ref, just a fan. But I'm happy to tell you my impression as a fan, not knowing what the players thought or what was said. But it appeared to me that he talked with the players too much. I don't think he was "warning" them, like you might do when the infraction is not quite a card but close or when there's a behavior to nip in the bud. The reason I say this in part was it was such a clean game..."easy" to ref in the sense of players being very professional and not making things hard. Also, often when he was chatting with players they just wanted to leave and get back into the game...into position for the free kick or for the restart when offsides was called. These players didn't stop and turn around and look at him like they were being "talked to" by the ref. And he looked smilely and happy, and not as if he was making some necesary point. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I think it's strange for refs to try to be chummy with players. Courteous and professional, yes, but why be chummy. I think it detracts from giving them that necessary sense of impartiality. Maybe the players think it's fine...I thought it odd as a fan. I don't think it likely had much effect on the game, but I think it could have an effect on games if refs are trying to be popular with players instead of just trying to accurate in their calls and be respected just for that. And, I won't mind if he refs for SJ in the future. -KMJvet
Having talked with and developed some rapport with the players can help you a lot as a referee. I will frequently talk to players throughout the game -- and not just about the calls. I'll comment about particularly good plays and if I've talked to them before about something, I may give a little light-hearted "tease" when they screw something up or during dead time during subs or something we may talk about what college they're going to (I refereed a college showcase yesterday). Later in the game if one of the players is getting a little off his/her game or a little out of control, you can enlist the help of some of the players you've been talking to. It works.
KidRef pointed out something that I also noticed about Prus in the SJ game. He does have a raport with players and that helps him. This isn't idle chatter either. An example: Near the end of that match there was a foul on the far side of the field and there was a bit of a discussion. Prus's facial expression was amicable at first, but then someone said something to him that went a little too far and his expression completely changed. It was obvious that the pleyer he scowed at got the message too. People skills are more and more important the higher up the ladder you go as a referee. So far, every MLS referee that I have met has been very very good at interacting with people. Players are almost never going to agree with what you call. However, if you can actually interact with them in a respectful way during the match, you earn the ref team respect and get yourself a little extra slack on the rope. I am biased to a degree because I'm a NJ ref like Prus, but I've watched about 10 of his matches over the last two years and he is very consistent, and I've never witnessed his games getting out of hand. He always seems calm and the players seem to respect him. As I've already written, I'll discuss calls that I disagree with, but I won't trash a referee personally. That just goes too far, and I think it's selling a referee like Prus short to suggest that butt-kissing got him where he is.