1962 World Cup XI (by Dr. Friedebert Becker)

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Gregoriak, May 11, 2014.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    So yeah Sekularac doesn't join the 5 out of 6 club (he has an average of 4.5)!

    Sacchi does have an even higher average than Pele did in 1958, but playing a game less like I said before.
     
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  2. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Yes there's always a problem somewhere but leaving out Vava is a possibility : for an IF (so more probably in a 4-man attack) or, or... including Seeler (CF here) instead, Seeler was 'half-fit' it seems but perhaps he remains the CF of the tournament.
    As for the formations shown by France Foot, many times, it's more theorical than anything else, moreover since they somehow contradict a bit themselves in the game long reports. But it's normal ofc as the shape of a team also depends on the opponent, who marks who etc., what each role is about exactly... for instance, in an article they explain that Schneiter plays behind 4 'defenders', is the sweeper.
     
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  3. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Yes, I noticed too that Yugoslavia played in a very peculiar shape. Red Star '91 was peculiar too, in their offensive set-up.

    About Norman/ Sacchi, although they played at two different positions each (CB/ HB), probably they still belong to the "stopper" category though. Although, I'm not aware of what would be the balance between their defensive abilities and how good they could be on the ball, each.
    At HB, they'd still be considered as 'defenders' and we saw different mags (incl. FF) composing with it, so I don't think it's much of a problem in this case. More a solution maybe.
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    *Markovic and Jusufi, also of Yugoslavia, do still have an average of 4 by the way after the semi final and 3rd place game as they each got 4 in both those games.
     
  5. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    Great post !!!
    Do you also have from FRANCE FOOTBALL for 1958 and 1966?
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    1958 we have yes (thanks to Titanlux originally)
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Only the overall averages though as you can see, not for each game like on this thread.

    1966 nobody has been able to discover as yet, but surely France Football will have done ratings for that year too.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    So combining the average ratings from 1958 and 1962 would give this XI for best averages during either tournament....

    Gregg (Northern Ireland) 1958 - 5.00;
    Durkovic (Yugoslavia) 1962 - 4.33,
    Evans (Scotland) 1958 - 4.3
    Marzolini (Argentina) 1962 - 4.33;
    Sacchi (Argentina) 1962 - 5.33,
    Didi (Brazil) 1958 (*if designating him here instead of deep-lying inside forward - France Football did do though - Boskov of Yugoslavia from 1958 would make the second XI otherwise if Masopust from 1962 went into the first XI) - 4.80;
    Kopa (France) 1958 - (*assuming his average rating is above 4.5, though it's unclear on the copied page) - unclear rating, significantly above 4 out of 5 it seems
    Garrincha (Brazil) 1958 - 5.00
    Fontaine (France) 1958 - 5.00
    Pele (Brazil) 1958 - 5.25
    Charlton (England) 1962 - 4.75

    Sacchi and Marzolini only played 3 games but that's not less than Evans in 1958 (Popluhar in 1962 did play substantially more games than Evans, but Nilton Santos in 1958 played substantially more than Marzolini in 1962 albeit Nilton Santos actually got a better average rating in 1962 than 1958 and Novak of Czechoslovakia did too anyway).

    7 players from 1958, and 4 from 1962 (all but one mainly defensive players) probably reflects well how the World Cups were seen respectively.


    The Reserve XI would be this on that basis:

    Schroijf (Czechoslovakia) 1962 - 4.67;
    Troche (Uruguay) 1962 - 4.33,
    Zebec (Yugoslavia) 1958 - 4.2,
    Schnellinger (Germany) 1962 - 4.25;
    Norman (England) 1962 - 4.33,
    Masopust (Czechoslovakia) 1962 - 4.50;
    Sekularac (Yugoslavia) 1962 - 4.50;
    Rahn (Germany) 1958 - 5.00,
    Parodi (Paraguay) 1958 - 4.60,
    Seeler (Germany) 1962 - 4.25,
    Zagallo (Brazil) 1962 - 4.33

    Troche only played 3 games but his average is comfortably getting him in I suppose. Norman only played 3 games too. Parodi also only played 3 games in 1958, so Ivanov (from 1962, with an average a bit above 4, rather than just below as in 1958 where he was in the mix too albeit his average would be below pure strikers like Vava whose rating is somewhat uncertain that year too), or perhaps Piantoni from 1958 who went to the latter stages with France that year, would be the alternative I guess.

    That second XI does have 8 players from 1962, and only 3 from 1958 (but two of those 3 are attackers).

    The ratings would likely be given with a similar level of generosity I would have thought, being from just four years apart.
     
  8. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    Great!
    Only I don't find any estimates for 1966 anywhere !?
    Probably before 1958 there were no player ratings anywhere !?
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    No, I haven't seen anything for 1966 myself I don't think, in terms of player ratings.

    I'm not 100% sure France Football started it in 1958 rather than before. @wm442433 might have more idea about that. It would surely be difficult for the 1930s World Cups I would think though for example (even though one of them was in France so that helps - I see France Football was established in 1946 though so that particular magazine wouldn't have done ratings in the 30s; L'Equipe founded in 1946 also so the same there).
     
  10. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    Great!
    Only I don't find any estimates for 1966 anywhere !?
    Probably before 1958 there were no player ratings anywhere !?
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    One quick clarification again (I think Pavlin and others will probably realise it already though): the ratings of Vava etc from 1958 aren't uncertain (only Kopa's rating is), because it's evident which I'd realised before but somehow forgot yesterday that those centre forwards listed just below Kopa have the same average rating of exactly 4 as Seeler does in that year (Seeler's name appears on the next page of course).
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #37 PDG1978, Nov 24, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
    I tried to have a bit of a look and I did find a reference (in Hungarian) to the People newspaper coming up with these top average ratings for 1966 (they seem consistent with English league ratings also being high, as Titanlux showed for 1960/61, although perhaps by the end of the 70s that had changed a little as you found yourself re: your posts on the English league ratings thread)....

    8.3 - Bobby Moore
    8.0 - Jack Charlton, Pedro Rocha
    7.6 - Franz Beckenbauer, Helmut Haller, Eusebio, Valery Voronin
    7.5 - Mario Coluna, Ferenc Bene
    7.3 - Willy Schulz, Ray Wilson
    7.2 - Silvio Marzolini, Oscar Mas, Julio Cesar Cortes
    7.1 - Gordon Banks, Antonio Simoes, Jose Torres, Uwe Seeler

    And this overall XI in the section below, after text translating as "The newspaper has allotted the best World Cup team below" which makes me think it is from the People newspaper too but not just based on the average ratings but their view in summary (or could it be the average ratings with a minimum amount of games played?)
    Banks; Djalma Santos, Schulz, Moore, Marzolini; Beckenbauer, B.Charlton, Voronin; Bene, Eusebio, Simoes


    I also found an end of year XI for 1966 seemingly by Associated Press, with a reserve XI too:
    1st XI: Banks; D.Santos, Schulz, Moore, Marzolini; Beckenbauer, B.Charlton, Voronin; Bene, Eusebio, Best
    2nd XI: Tilkowski; Sanchis, Rildo, Ubinas, Facchetti; Haller, Albert, Coluna; Law, Pele, Simoes

    And what seems to be a top 10 European players of the year/moment from a Yugoslav publication:
    Eusebio, B.Charlton, Beckenbauer, Albert, Sekularac, Mazzola, Bene, Moore, Amancio, Dzajic
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Sorry, one correction here too - it is actually Jack Charlton with an average of 8 it seems (the text does say J.Charlton) although it's certainly Bobby Charlton in the overall XI (and in the Associated Press XI and Yugoslav source top 10 players)!

    I'll edit my original post to reflect that. There's a chance maybe it is meant to be Bobby Charlton like I automatically assumed at first glance obviously, but I'd have to assume it is Jack and maybe it makes some kind of sense that the English defence was rated consistently highly in each game, while maybe Bobby flitted between being the star turn and key player in certain games and moments (vs Mexico and Portugal for example) and being a bit more average, although I think I recall that he was selected as player of the tournament by some source/s - maybe @PuckVanHeel remembers about that....
     
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  14. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    It seems that Schrojff was saved by his posts in several occasions, a bit like Pfaff in '86 (in '86?). But left an overall good impression, especially after the semi-finals - in a "tournament of the defenders" arguably, as said by Becker, but maybe not of the GK's... eh.
    He did not concede against Brazil in the first round too. But Brazil had a slow start, it seems too, with no real team-play, according to FF.
     
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  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Also a World Cup XI of at the time 'radio commentators' Billy Wright and Joe Mercer, from 1966 too apparently:
    Banks; Sanchis, Schulz, Moore, Marzolini; Beckenbauer, B.Charlton, Voronin; Bene, Pele, Eusebio
     
  16. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Do you know if that was after the tournament was completed or after a certain number of games?
     
  17. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    I hope at a later stage someone will publish ratings from 1966!
     
  18. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    Would you post the uploaded ratings of German players again because something I don't see?
    Thanks in advance!
     
  19. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Let's make an 'associative pot' in order to buy the mag issues ahaha
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Using britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk now, I've been able to find the page in the People from the 31st of July that confirms this list of top average ratings. It is indeed Jack Charlton in joint second. I don't see an overall best XI on the page (there's a chance maybe that that XI I posted was by Nepsport of Hungary maybe, but it read more like it was from the People too I thought: maybe if the translation was iffy it could even have been a vote among several newspapers but I doubt it and there were no details or numbers of votes etc suggesting so).

    I can also see average ratings for the Final between England and West Germany as follows:
    Banks 8; Cohen 7, J.Charlton 8, Moore 9, Wilson 7; Stiles 8, B.Charlton 7, Peters 7; Ball 7, Hunt 7, Hurst 8
    Tilkowski 7; Hottges 7, Schulz 7, Weber 7, Schnellinger 7; Beckenbauer 8, Haller 7, Overath 7; Held 7, Seeler 7, Emmerich 7

    Apparently Moore did win an award for best player of the Final, as voted on by International press too (but presented by the Football Writers Association).

    I don't see any further details about average ratings for other players. It is just a table of the top rated ones.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I do have the quarter final game ratings, the top 10 average ratings after the quarter finals, and the top rated player of every nation who went out in the group stage though too, from the 24th July copy of the People, also found on britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk (there is one more hunch to come from pages that have been returned on search results which I can check but it seems less likely to provide much info - maybe there will be average ratings for some group games though potentially).

    England vs Argentina
    Banks 7; Cohen 7, J.Charlton 7, Moore 8, Wilson 7; Stiles 8, B.Charlton 6, Peters 6; Ball 7, Hurst 7, Hunt 6
    Roma 7; Ferreiro 6, Perfumo 7, Albrecht 6, Marzolini 7; Gonzalez 7, Rattin 6, Solari 7, Onega 6, Artime 6, Mas 8

    Portugal vs North Korea
    Pereira 6; Morais 7, Vicente 7, Hilario 7; Graca 8, Coluna 7; Augusto 6, Eusebio 10, Torres 7, Simoes 7 (there does seem to be a player missing - Baptista - so maybe they accidentally didn't print his grade)
    Li Chan Myung 8; Lim Zoong-Sun 6, Shin Yung-Kyoo 7, Ha Jong-Wan 7, Oh Yoon Kyung 7; Pak Seung-Zin 6, Im Shung-Hwee 6; Han Bong Zin 7, Pak Doo-Ik 7, Li Dong Woon 6, Yang Sung-Guk 7

    Hungary vs USSR
    Gelei 4; Kaposzta 6, Szepesi 5, Meszoly 8, Matrai 7; Sipos 7, Nagy 7; Bene 6, Albert 5, Farkas 6, Rakosi 7
    Yashin 7; Ponomarov 7, Shesternyov 7, Voronin 9, Danilov 7; Sabo 7, Khusainov 6; Chislenko 7, Banishevski 7, Malfeev 7, Porkuyan 7

    I'll continue this post in a bit, but stop here for now....
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    West Germany vs Uruguay
    Tilkowski 8; Hottges 7, Weber 7, Schulz 8, Schnellinger 7; Beckenbauer 8, Overath 7; Haller 7, Seeler 9, Held 7, Emmerich 7
    Mazurkiewicz 7; Ubinas 7, Troche 6, Manicera 7, Caetano 7; Rocha 9, Goncalvez 7, Salva 7; Cortes 8, Silva 6, Perez 7


    Top 10 average ratings after the quarter-finals
    8.0 - Eusebio, Haller, J.Charlton, Moore, Rocha
    7.6 - Voronin
    7.5 - Bene, Coluna, Simoes, Seeler

    Top rated player for each nation exiting in group stage
    Brazil - Lima (6.0), Bulgaria - Yakimov (6.6), Chile - Marcos (6.0), France - Artelesa (7.0), Italy - Bulgarelli (6.3), Mexico - Diaz (7.3), Spain - Zoco (7.6), Switzerland - Fuhrer (7.0)

    I suppose Diaz and Zoco were not considered eligible to end up on the final top average ratings list at the end of the tournament, as printed on the 31st of July, due to not playing enough games and/or going out in the group stage.
     
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  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The other page, from the 17th July, did show this leaderboard for top average ratings (after 2 group games basically):

    8.5 - Florian Albert, Jack Charlton, Bobby Moore, Helmut Haller, Pedro Rocha
    8.0 - Ferenc Bene, Janos Farkas, Paulo Henrique
    7.5 - Ray Wilson


    England vs Mexico
    Banks 7; Cohen 7, J.Charlton 8, Moore 9, Wilson 7; Stiles 7, B.Charlton 8, Peters 8; Paine 7, Greaves 7, Hunt 7
    Calderon 6; Del Muro 6, Hernandez 6, Pena 6, Nunez 6, Chaires 6; Diaz 7, Jauregui 5; Reyes 6, Borja 6, Padilla 6

    Italy vs USSR
    Albertosi 6; Burgnich 6, Rosato 7, Salvadore 6, Facchetti 5; Bulgarelli 6, Lodetti 6; Meroni 5, Leoncini 4, Mazzola 4, Pascutti 4
    Yashin 6; Ponomorov 6, Shesternyov 7, Khurtsilava 6, Danilov 6; Sabo 7, Voronin 7; Chislenko 9, Malefeev 6, Banishevski 6, Khusainov 5

    Argentina vs W.Germany
    Roma 7; Perfumo 6, Marzolini 8, Ferreiro 6, Albrecht 6; Rattin 6, Gonzalez 6; Solari 6, Artime 6, Onega 7, Mas 6
    Tilkowski 7; Hottges 7, Schulz 7, Weber 6, Schnellinger 6; Haller 8, Beckenbauer 6; Brulls 7, Seeler 6, Overath 6, Held 6

    Portugal vs Bulgaria
    Perreira 7; Festa 7, Germano 5, Vicente 7, Hilario 7; Graca 7, Coluna 7; Augusto 6, Eusebio 6, Torres 7, Simoes 8
    Naidenov 6; Shalamanov 7, Penev 6, Vutsov 6, Gaganelov 6; Zhechev 6, Yakimov 5; Dermendiev 4, Zhekov 6, Asparuhov 6, Kostov 5


    Maybe some other grades can be worked out from what we have (I think in the semi-finals it is Jack Charlton and Moore both with 9s, Beckenbauer with at least 8 but maybe 9 or potentially 10, Seeler with a 7 and I think Haller probably a 7 too for example....)
     
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  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe these need to have played every group game (otherwise I don't know how Paulo Henrique isn't Brazil's top rated player as he had 8 after two games).

    I think the final averages may be rounded down by the way, rather than written to more than one decimal place (Moore has 8.33 for example I'm thinking).
     
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  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The page from the 17th July did say it would be 4 games minimum that would be necessary to qualify for contending for their best player award.

    What wasn't made 100% clear maybe was whether the list of top rated players after the opening two games included players who only played once (it wasn't stated that it didn't, but if it did then Pele vs Bulgaria, or for example Rivera vs Chile, would have had to have been given less than an 8 in their opening games).
     
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