1958 World Cup Best IX (by Dr. Friedebert Becker, 1958)

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Gregoriak, Feb 27, 2010.

  1. Christo1

    Christo1 New Member

    Nov 9, 2012
    This is very old topics but i want to share one thing. Nilton Santos was very good at his position. I saw full game. Kopa was as usual in his behavior.
     
  2. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1959/01/22/pagina-1/647541/pdf.html#
    http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1959/01/22/pagina-3/647543/pdf.html#

    On January 1959 the Swedish Federation published the results of a referendum among 1200 experts that attended the 1958 WC and whose votes were used to put together the following Team of the Tournament (based on the 720 answers obtained out of the 1200):

    Gregg
    Bergmark - Bellini - Nilton Santos
    Voynov - Szymaniak
    Garrincha - Didí - Kopa - Pelé - Skoglund

    The article explains the absence of WC top scorer Just Fontaine is due to the formula of the referendum. As you will see below, Fontaine obtained equal amount of of votes as Didí, both of them well above Pelé. However, because the votes for the French were so evenly split between right and left insider, he was second to Didí in the former and second to Pelé in the latter. The player getting the most votes was Nilton Santos with 619, followed by Gregg and Szymaniak. Here the detail of the votes:

    Keepers: Gregg 478 --- Yashin 422 --- MacDonald 37 --- Kelsey 29

    Right def: Bergmark 280 --- Djalma Santos 217 --- Howe 114 --- De Sordi 58
    Central def: Bellini 392 --- Gustafsson 276 --- Wright 64
    Left def: Nilton Santos 619 --- Novak 27 --- Bergmark 26

    Right mid: Voynov 359 --- Blanchflower 219 --- Zito 211 --- Liedholm 7
    Left mid: Szymaniak 454 --- Orlando 221 --- Parling 16

    Right wing: Garrincha 364 --- Hamrin 363 --- Rahn 4
    Right inside: Didí 263 --- Fontaine 251 --- Pelé 108 --- Kopa 58
    Center Forward: Kopa 377 --- Vavá 325 --- Charles 11
    Inside left: Pelé 256 --- Fontaine 240 --- Didí 228
    Left wing: Skoglund 370 --- McParland 272 --- Zagallo 63 --- Rahn 30
     
  3. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    #28 msioux75, Sep 13, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2014
    I saw recently the Semifinal game.
    http://www.4dfoot.com/2011/10/21/1958-world-cup-semi-final-brazil-vs-france-full-game/

    This is my impression:

    Brazil vs France
    1:0 Vavá 02' - assist by Zito
    1:1 Fontaine 09' - preassist by Kopa
    2:1 Didi 39' - individual play
    3:1 Pelé 52' - preassist by Vavá
    4:1 Pelé 64' - individual play
    5:1 Pelé 75' - preassist by Didi
    5:2 Piantoni 83' - individual play

    Brazil: (A 4-2-4 formation)
    Gilmar 8 - De Sordi 6, Bellini 7, Orlando 7, N.Santos 7 - Zito 7, Didi 8 - Garrincha 7, Vavá 7, Pelé 9, Zagalo 7

    France: (A 3-2-1-4 formation)
    Abbes 5 - Kaelbel 5, Jonquet 6, Lerond 5 - Penverne 6, JJ.Marcel 5 - Kopa 7 - Wisnieski 5, Fontaine 7, Piantoni 6, Vincent 6

    Notes:
    At 35' the french centreback Jonquet got injured and throughout the 2nd half was placed as Left Winger, then Vincent played as midfielder. The two halves Penverne and Marcel filled the centreback role, depending the situation, more often played in front of the defensive line as a sort of stopper switching with DM both players.
    After the 3rd goal by Pelé, Vavá got injured too and retired from the pitch. Remained Pelé as a sort of a "9 and a half".

    FIFA report.
    http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/archive/worldcup/sweden1958/matches/round=488/match=1340/index.html
     
  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    According to the impression of the Brazilian journalist Geraldo Romualdo da Silva (https://www.facebook.com/senadorfirminomg/posts/1270802866272883:0) of how the Swedes/Europeans viewed the top teams before the event? Brazil was already one of the favorites to win that World Cup.

    [​IMG]
    Chronicle of Jornal dos Sports, January 1958.


    Pelé was hyped as the next Ademir (Ademir Menezes I think) and they had knowledge about players like Djalma Santos and Didi.
    ==>
    Ended that Pelé surpassed Ademir and Djalma Santos and Didi were on form in that tournament.
     
    Tom Stevens and Gregoriak repped this.
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm not sure whether this is the best thread for it or not, but I noticed (just after finalising an attempt at some 'interesting XIs' of World Cup winning players, while on the All-Star team Wikipedia page after going there to double check a couple of players made it into them!) Wikipedia now refers to a big poll of journalists finally published in 1959 by the Swedish organisers, about the best players in the World Cup:
    Edición del Thursday 22 January 1959, Página 1 - Hemeroteca - MundoDeportivo.com
    Edición del Thursday 22 January 1959, Página 3 - Hemeroteca - MundoDeportivo.com

    Goalkeeper: Gregg (478 votes; Yashin 422, McDonald 37, Kelsey 29)
    Right Back: Bergmark (280 votes; Djalma Santos 217, Howe 114, De Sordi 58)
    Left Back: Nilton Santos (219 votes; Novak 27, Bergmark 26)
    Right Half: Voinov (359 votes; Blanchflower 219, Zito 211, Liedholm 7)
    Centre Half (Central Defender): Bellini 392 (392 votes; Gustavsson 276, Wright 64)
    Left Half: Szymaniak (454 votes; Orlando 221, Parling 16)
    Right Wing: Garrincha (364 votes; Hamrin 363!, Rahn 4)
    Inside Right: Didi (263 votes; Fontaine 251, Pele 108, Kopa 58)
    Centre Forward: Kopa (377 votes; Vava 325, Charles 11)
    Inside Left: Pele (256 votes; Fontaine 240, Didi 228)
    Left Wing: Skoglund (370 votes; McParland 222, Zagallo 63, Rahn 30)

    Maybe Nilton Santos's votes are higher (typo?), judging by the other votes in that position.

    The formation resulted in a game of 'musical chairs' and Fontaine didn't get a place it seems (with 491 votes overall, but none or very few at centre forward as Kopa was being considered the 'deep lying centre forward' by most people I suppose).

    I remember France Football included Didi among half backs (but using the 3-2-5 template still, not Brazil's 4-2-4 formation) and their ratings and all-star selections show some similarity to those in this poll, but for example another French player Vincent would be more in contention as left winger according to the France Football assessments than is reflected here with the Swedish poll....
    [​IMG]
    1958-0670-seleccion-mundial-1958-2-jpg.187118 (667×1920) (bigsoccer.com)
    (Originally provided by @Titanlux )

    Maybe interesting to compare these things to Dr Becker's choices anyway. I couldn't think of any general World Cup 1958 thread having been opened.

    It seems like the 1958 poll resulted in the one true historical All-Star selection between the one of 1938 and the one of 1994 (though there were surely other general journalist polls, like IIRC in 1966 - at least there was one for best player if not All-Star teams I think wasn't there), according to how Wikipedia presents things now
    FIFA World Cup awards - Wikipedia
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Oh, sorry mate - I never read this until now I don't think somehow!

    I just typed out basically the same thing, but maybe it's a nice bump for anyone who didn't see it either the first time, or joined Big Soccer afterwards...!

    EDIT - 619 votes for Nilton Santos does make sense too - I guess Once read that in the main part of the article.
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  7. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    From all the sources I have been able to access with rankings by position or ideal XI (some of them I am not clear where exactly they came from), I have completed this table, scoring as follows:
    5 points for first, 4 points for second, 3 points for third, 2 points for fourth and 1 point for 5th.
    To finish off this classification, the theoretical XI of the World Cup.

    mejor mundial 1.jpg mejor mundial 2.jpg mejor mundial 3.jpg mejor mundial 4.jpg mejor mundial 5.jpg XI MUNDIAL teorico.jpg
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Nice work mate. I feel in some ways it might be reasonable to present the XI with Didi in Orlando's place, and Fontaine as inside right (even though it is a 3-2-5 line-up not a 4-2-4), or maybe actually with Fontaine as CF rather than Kopa just because he has more points accumulated and arguably he played more like the typical CF, and Kopa's theoretical false 9 role was mostly more like an AM one. My preference would be for the former maybe (Didi deeper like France Football chose too), but of course I understand if you leave it like it is too (it seems one of Didi, Kopa, Fontaine or Pele will always be unlucky unless Didi is placed further back, which matches his role well enough except that he would not be placed with 4 defensive players behind him as well as Zito alongside/behind him like in the Brazil team).

    Interesting to see the second/third/fourth/fifth XIs from some sources anyway, giving quite an extensive list of players.
     
    Buyo repped this.
  9. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    is this the first championship in which French football ratings are given?
     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm not 100% sure, but maybe yes...I think. @wm442433 and @Titanlux may have the information on this I guess....
     
  11. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017

    Many of us will remember that not too long ago you could check the ratings on a website that no longer exists. It was called http://www.everyfourthyear.se. I wrote down some ratings in time, but not all of them, nor of all the world championships. For 62 I should have done it in time, but not for 66, and although there are some images, they are so small that you can't see them. From 58 I have nothing. You can do some research; sometimes in some sales pages they attach images that can clarify this doubt...
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, that's right, they had the ratings from 1966 onwards IIRC, and they seem to be absolutely correct because some of them could be verified with France Football pages by some guys on here at various moments.

    I should clarify though that Pavlin was asking whether France Football rated World Cup performances from before 1958 (for example at the 1954 World Cup in Switzerland four years earlier). I'm not aware they did, but I thought it's possible you or wm442433 might know about this....or about whether Gabrielle Hanot picked any ideal XI from 1954 too or something like that....
     
    Titanlux repped this.
  13. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Like @PDG1978, I'm about 100% sure that there was no ratings before '58 (it's since '56 for the Division 1 and must be the same in general).
    I did not make researches/ checkings tho (btw, I don't have best XI publications in mind pre-58. If ever I come across stuff like that, I'll post it, sure).
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  14. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    #39 wm442433, Oct 31, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2022
    For the '54 World Cup there's an article where Hanot compile "the best technicians, the most brilliant tacticians, the most inspired players of the Cup"

    "Kocsis must be quoted at first [...] but don't imagine that he never was thwarted [...] the most complete but it's in the air that he is truly supreme."
    Then in his article that is also about tactics he also cites and focus on Puskas, Andrade, Rahn, Schiaffino, Pinheiro, Liebrich, Schaefer, Palotas, Hidegkuti, Grosics, Morlock, Neury, Martinez, Fritz and Ottmar Walter. All these names were already announced below the title of the article.

    Neury is saluted at last for his pride, his vigor, his sense of sacrifice at the image of his team. "Exemplary" (for his teammates, in general and towards the French team? Who were a "sentimental/mushy team").
     
    Pavlin Arnaudov repped this.
  15. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    In that site with France football ratings, were published from 1970 to today. 1966 I think there were none!
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
  17. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
  18. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    1962 I think it was there too, because I put them in an excel and the magazines I have not seen. From '58 I have nothing, that's why I suggest that we investigate a little bit to see if we can find something...
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  19. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    wm442433 repped this.
  20. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Pavlin Arnaudov repped this.
  21. TomNeil

    TomNeil Member

    São Paulo FC
    Brazil
    May 7, 2021
    Small contribution...El Grafico
    WP_007379.jpg WP_008696.jpg
     
    Titanlux, wm442433, Buyo and 2 others repped this.
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, of course what you did find from 1958 was the final average ratings and the chosen XI of France Football and (separately) Hanot.
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #48 PDG1978, Nov 1, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2022
    Not so small really (at least quite a lot of interesting info on two pages), and I guess a majority of those surveyed about the best XI of the World Cup didn't take part in the poll referred to in the quoted section of post #34 that Pavlin replied to (because for example Rahn had 4 votes overall as right winger in that poll), which had these results (Nilton Santos's tally corrected now):
    Goalkeeper: Gregg (478 votes; Yashin 422, McDonald 37, Kelsey 29)
    Right Back: Bergmark (280 votes; Djalma Santos 217, Howe 114, De Sordi 58)
    Left Back: Nilton Santos (619 votes; Novak 27, Bergmark 26)
    Right Half: Voinov (359 votes; Blanchflower 219, Zito 211, Liedholm 7)
    Centre Half (Central Defender): Bellini 392 (392 votes; Gustavsson 276, Wright 64)
    Left Half: Szymaniak (454 votes; Orlando 221, Parling 16)
    Right Wing: Garrincha (364 votes; Hamrin 363!, Rahn 4)
    Inside Right: Didi (263 votes; Fontaine 251, Pele 108, Kopa 58)
    Centre Forward: Kopa (377 votes; Vava 325, Charles 11)
    Inside Left: Pele (256 votes; Fontaine 240, Didi 228)
    Left Wing: Skoglund (370 votes; McParland 222, Zagallo 63, Rahn 30)

    The cumulative results of this poll you found are this (I'm bolding if the player was picked out as one of the best players in the article above the table too, and adding others unselected by any voter but picked out in that piece on the line below the summary - I'll just use 1-11 rather than positional descriptions and maybe that works best as with the different formations used and sometimes picking of two players from the same position also, the positional descriptions might not be 100% realistic anyway) - I'm also adding the France Football final average rating in brackets (with the Kopa one confirmed by Titanlux as 4.6):

    1: Gregg (5.00) - 7, Yashin (4.00) - 4, McDonald (4.00) - 3, Gilmar (3.50) - 2, Svensson (3.83) - 1, Herkenrath (3.60) - 1

    2: Bergmark (3.60) - 9, Howe (3.67) - 2, Nilton Santos (3.80 as left back) - 2, Juskowiak (3.60 as left back) - 1, Peacock (3.50 as wing-half) 1, De Sordi (3.00) - 1, Kessarev (3.00) - 1, Lombardo (3.00) - 1

    3: Nilton Santos (3.80) - 14, Juskowiak (3.60) - 3, Axbom (3.10) - 1

    4: Voinov (4.20) - 6, Liedholm (3.60 as inside left) - 3, Blanchflower (3.60) - 2, Hanappi (3.30) - 1, Dino Sani (no rating shown in summary, 2 appearances) - 1, Boskov (4.50) - 1, Eckel (3.20) - 1, Pluskal (no rating shown in summary, 2 appearances) - 1, Dvorak (3.50) - 1, Borjesson (3.70) - 1

    5: Gustavsson (4.10) - 9, Bellini (3.60) - 4, Erhardt (4.00) - 3, Wright (4.20) - 2

    6: Szymaniak (3.80) - 6, Liedholm (3.60 as inside left) - 2, Voinov (4.20) - 2, Netto (no rating shown in summary, 1 appearance) - 2, Panverne (3.60) - 1, Marcel (3.40) - 1, Hanappi (3.30) - 1, Koller (3.60) - 1, Masopust (3.50) - 1, Orlando (3.00 as centre back) - 1

    7: Rahn (5.00) - 8, Garrincha (5.00) - 8, Hamrin (4.60) - 1, Wisnieski (3.80) - 1

    8: Didi (4.80 as left half) - 11, Fontaine (5.00) - 3, Valentin Ivanov (3.80) - 1, Gren (under 3.00 but highest of those under 3.00 - Titanlux might be able to clarify precisely as he did with Kopa, or maybe has already shown the full page if I remember correctly - I didn't check today though) - 1, Vaselinovic (3.50) - 1, McIlroy (3.20 as inside left) - 1

    9: Kopa (4.60) - 8, Fontaine (5.00) - 4, J.Charles (3.00) - 2, Mazzola, i.e(a.k.a) Jose Altafini (no rating shown in summary, 2 appearances) - 2, Buzek (4.00) - 1, Seeler (4.00) - 1

    10: Pele (5.25) - 5, Fontaine (5.00) - 2, F.Walter (3.60) - 2, Kopa (4.60 as centre forward) - 1, Mudie (4.00 as centre forward) - 1, Allchurch (3.20) - 1, McIlroy (3.20) - 1, Vava (4.00 as centre forward) - 1, Piantoni (4.00) - 1, Gren (3.00 as inside right) - 1, Finney (no rating shown in summary, 1 appearance) - 1, Liedholm (3.60) - 1

    11: Skoglund (4.00) - 15, Finney (no rating shown in summary, 1 appearance) - 2, Rahn (5.00 as right winger) - 1

    Varacka (4.30), Dellacha (3.00), Popluhar (3.60), Blanco (2.50), Petakovic (3.70), Bozsik (3.60), Parodi (4.60).


    Interesting to see Feola picked an XI, and had just under half of it made up of Brazilian players (the same five picked out in the article above the table).

    On the second page that looks like an interesting valuation of the 30 best World Cup players (in the estimation of a different journalist as compared to on the first page, with some different players selected) plus Di Stefano and Sivori!
     
    Titanlux and Pavlin Arnaudov repped this.
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    France Football average ratings of the players picked out in the player valuation piece (seemingly as a top 30 player from/of the World Cup) but not selected in an XI in any vote published on the first page, or mentioned as a star player in the 'Seleccionado' piece on that page:

    Zebec (4.20), Dolejsi (4.25), Mraz (4.00), Sekularac (3.60), Molnar (no rating in summary, 2 appearances), Vincent (4.00), Corbatta (4.30)
     
    Pavlin Arnaudov repped this.
  25. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Those XI, s are the ones I have been collecting in one way or another. I thought you could use them. I know Pavlin is looking for the 58's, but unfortunately, I'm running into the same problem he is. No doubt, if I find information you can counter with it.
     

Share This Page