16,675 is the magic attendance number

Discussion in 'Business and Media' started by MLS_stats, May 20, 2003.

  1. MLS_stats

    MLS_stats New Member

    May 15, 2003
    IMHO, MLS can be profitable at average attendance of 16,675.

    Here is why:

    Revenues: 16,675 x $20 average ticket x 15 games = $5,002,500

    Costs: $1,750,000 salary cap, $1,000,000 league overhead, $1,500,000 in stadium costs ($100,000 per game) and $750,000 in misc. expenses

    Profit of $2,500.

    Teams with their own stadiums could break even at 14,000 (assuming stadium costs of $700,000).

    This analysis ignores all other sources of income.

    What do you think?
     
  2. jmeissen0

    jmeissen0 New Member

    Mar 31, 2001
    page 1078
    considering you are forgetting that some teams already have a solid chunk of the in stadium revenue... and they don't make money... you're off
     
  3. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Many have tried. There is no magic attendance number. It's dollars in versus dollars out, and, try as we may, our estimates cannot help us reach the conclusion that any particular number is the "magic" number.
     
  4. MLS_stats

    MLS_stats New Member

    May 15, 2003
    Do teams exceed the salary cap?

    Is league overhead more than $10 million?
     
  5. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the past, yes, in huge numbers they did.

    I believe now they that the owners follow the rules as close to the letter as they can.

    I think it is your misc expenses that is way way off. For example, local TV time buys are not cheap.

    No way to say for sure though so your guess is as good as anyones.

    Andy
     
  6. dawgpound2

    dawgpound2 Member

    Mar 3, 2001
    Los Angeles, CA
    Club non-player payroll is much more significant than people think.
     
  7. Jimbo

    Jimbo Member

    Dec 17, 1999
    Washington, DC
    The salary cap you included doesn't include benefits or payroll taxes (e.g., unemployment, social security, medicare), so it is too low.

    While you've identified some major cost areas, the miscellaneous category includes a lot of things and if you break it out, it is likely too low. Consider travel-related expenses for away games, the costs of spring training, the salary, benefits, and payroll taxes for each team's management and sales staff (this includes the GM, sales staff, and coaches), the office rent, insurance, advertising expenses, production costs for broadcasts in some markets.
     
  8. MLS_stats

    MLS_stats New Member

    May 15, 2003
    That's what my $750,000 in misc. expenses was supposed to cover.
     
  9. dawgpound2

    dawgpound2 Member

    Mar 3, 2001
    Los Angeles, CA
    And I'm telling you that miscellaneous expenses is WAY more than $750k per team. WAY more.
     
  10. Northside Rovers

    Jan 28, 2000
    Austin TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Medical Insurance and all associated costs with physical injuries I would guess is roughly equal to a teams salary cap.

    Doctors, therapists, massage therpaists, operations, rehab, medical accessories (crutches, etc..) not to mention the insurance payments is a huge amount of money.
     
  11. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good luck.
     
  12. chayes

    chayes New Member

    Feb 29, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Consider that $133,875 of your misc. fund will be spent on payroll taxes alone (and just for players).

    Most head coaches make around $150-$200k plus 2 assistants. (Bradley arguably more than Andrulis or Nicol) Hell, Wrongen made $200k a year in DC.

    So, lets say, total coaches = $300k + payroll tax on that ($23k).

    You're at $450k already and you haven't traveled anywhere or paid a front office person.

    Of course, your revenue assumption doesn't include any advertising revenue, which is significant.

    Read the Rose Bowl - Galaxy agreement for some more insight on the costs vs. revenues in most stadiums. http://www.ci.pasadena.ca.us/councilagendas/2001agendas/feb_05_01/5a2.pdf
     
  13. MLS_stats

    MLS_stats New Member

    May 15, 2003
  14. Revolt

    Revolt Member+

    Jun 16, 1999
    Davis, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a nice post - and a pretty common sense way to refute the notions that MLS has lost 50, 100 or 500 million bucks since inception.

    Personally, I don't think you are too far off - but let's, if we can, consider some other source of revenues and costs.

    Cost side:

    Coaches
    Front office (okay paid for $750K)
    Travel
    Pre-season expenses w/ no revenues
    ESPN time buys
    local TV & radio time buys
    Insurance (I'll bet this is a fairly large figure)
    Doctors
    Fringe bennies
    Marketing (perhaps paid for by MLS HQ)

    Revenue side:

    Corporate sponsorships of the league
     
  15. Revolt

    Revolt Member+

    Jun 16, 1999
    Davis, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Damn it all - hit the return when I heard the boss come by.

    Revenue:

    League sponsorships
    Team sponsorships (I think the average must be $1,000,000 by now)
    Concessions
    Parking
    MLS Merchandise
    MLS Shootout
     
  16. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    The Revolution are on schedule to break even this year.
     
  17. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    'diego
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is this an ECG scoop or just a witty/sarcastic comment?

    Just curious.
     
  18. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This may be splitting hairs, but it is SUM that does the time buy, not MLS.


    Andy
     
  19. Deimos

    Deimos Member

    Apr 23, 1999
    Louisville, KY, USA
    So, what is the revenue vs expenses on the time buy? Does it make money or is it a way to get the sponsors on board?

    It seems to me I heard that in an early year MLS got $5 million for TV
     
  20. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Just the facts as I know them.
     
  21. Rocket

    Rocket Member

    Aug 29, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Way back when, didn't MLS state that it needed to average 16,000 or so in order to break even?
     
  22. MLS_stats

    MLS_stats New Member

    May 15, 2003
    Actually that's a very good comment. One less expense item for teams (or MLS).
     
  23. MLS_stats

    MLS_stats New Member

    May 15, 2003
    Just want to expand the list above.

    Revenues:

    1.) Corporate League Sponsors (Pepsi, Bud, Honda, yahoo, etc.) - this is a large number
    2.) Corporate League Partners (ADT, Panasonic, etc.)
    3.) Team sponsorships (I think the average must be $1,000,000 by now) - YahooEspanol/SanJose
    4.) Team uniform/shoe sponsors + MLS/Puma soccerball
    5.) Transfer fees - Howard to ManchesterU should bring in a more than $1 million
    6.) Concessions
    7.) Parking
    8.) MLS Merchandise - MLSGear should also bring in a few $100Ks
    9.) MLS Shootout - MLS probably gets $24.50 (50% of the $49) per subscriber
    10.) Stadium advertising - (close to $500,000 per year for LA at RoseBowl (see link above))
    11.) Stadium naming rights for SSS - huge for LA
    12.) Copyrights to MLS games (which could be very lucrative in the future)
    13.) MLS publications http://www.mlsnet.com/special/publications/index.html
    14.) MLS and team credit cards (from MBNA)
    15.) Website and newsletter advertising

    Again, I believe that with average attendance of 16,675, MLS can break even. I know there are many team and league expenses, but there are also many revenue streams (15 listed above but am sure that I missed many others).
     
  24. MLS_stats

    MLS_stats New Member

    May 15, 2003
    We know the Crew are profitable. I think Galaxy will also be profitable from now on.
     
  25. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The very first deal was for $5 million a year if they achieved certain ratings points.

    They never got close and I remember Sonny Kraft in a meeting that was mentioned in article saying that the league never even saw 6 figures from the original deal.

    Andy
     

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