11/15 US v. Slovenia; the midfield

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by TinManJoshua, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Simple compromise would have been to keep Beckerman and Edu or the equivalent, and then replace Williams and Shea with Dempsey and Johnson.
     
  2. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In MB's defense, he does not have the pace or quickness to closely mark 1v1 which is why he does the old school "squat and look".
     
  3. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The goal wasn't his fault per se but that's a play that could have been made. He gets bypassed a bit too often in 'not at fault but didn't exactly get stuck in' situations.
     
  4. dsirias

    dsirias Member

    Oct 26, 2007
    The key question is can we be successful with our existing back line with a single defensive presence in midfield and can that be Beckerman?
    _____________________________________________________

    Against many teams yes, even some mediocre Euro teams.
    Against top 15 teams probably not. But that's the point. Klinsmann has KB there to show his eventual replacement how to play the position.

    Our best formation is not the 4312. IMHO It's the 4132 Been saying that forever now. And the #6 has to be a real monster. By 2014 it won't be KB . Nor Jones. Nor Bradley But Klinsmann has decided the KB is the mold from which this monster must be created. I have no problem with that

    Klinsmann has shown he can put a lockdown lineup on the field. He has shown he can put a semi decent posseession team on the field ( when Torres is healthy). Yesterday he showed that he can put an attacking team on the field. No doubt he is up at night thinking about how to strike the right balance. Give him time.

    Klinsmann himself said a whole slew of players on the WC team will come from the U23s etc I dont expect Boca, Dolo, and gooch ( because of health) to even be on the team. It's still very early.
     
  5. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is the first match out of the 6 he has played that KB has not had Edu shielding him. Our spine did not look good at all.
    The Altidore+Buddle combo looked very good against France and great yesterday. It is not the "thunder+lightning" that has been tried in the past but in some ways "thunder+thunder" may be more frightning to our opponents. I hope to see more of it next year.

    I think Edu and Williams are the monsters in training at this point though I would not count out Jones for qualifying.
     
  6. Chester FC

    Chester FC New Member

    Jul 19, 2001
    my 2 cents:

    Dempsey was very dangerous and creative; he sees a lot of the ball at the top of the diamond, which is good as he is our most creative player. He can also get close to the goal. Good spot for him when the opposition (see France) does not mean we are need to be conservative (CONCACAF). Clint does need to be a bit more simple with the ball in our half.

    Johnson - very promising player. Time will tell.

    Bradley - great game. His passing and vision where outstanding.

    Beckerman - He has made the most of his physical talent, which says a lot about his personality, but he is just too slow, weak, etc. Not a great tackler in term of technique and actually rather weak in the tackle, though he does have good positional sense. I get that JK wants a guy to sweep up in front of the back four, but no way Beckerman is taking us to the next level. A bit like Chris Armas, where the other team would pressure him when on the ball and even our own guys do nat pass into him.

    JK is creating some good options in midfield and a couple different systems. Will continue to be a strength.
     
  7. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Agree about the 4-1-3-2. Against teams that are not strong, though. A 4-1-3-2 against a team like Ghana or Mexico is likely to be suicide.

    However, let me note that BB was already using that formation often, by the time of the Gold Cup. Except he had Edu in the role Kyle is playing now. Also, probably, as a compromise.
     
  8. swedust

    swedust Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    Typical Big Soccer: a guy shows well once and then right away the so called experts on here want to play him out of position.









    Hee hee. Couldn't resist.
     
  9. Namdynamo

    Namdynamo Member+

    Jan 1, 2005
    Bob's regular formation was a 4-2-2-2, never a 4-1-3-2 (1 = a dedicated DM).
     
  10. surfnturf

    surfnturf Member

    Mar 7, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Just curious, but what would Buddle have to do in order for you to consider him a starter? (And walking on water doesn't count.)
     
  11. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    No such a thing as a "dedicated DM" any more in footie.

    Even Beckerman runs forward and shoots to the stands on occasion.

    BB used Edu or Jones during the Gold Cup at times in exactly the same way JK used Kyle in the Slovenia game, with Bradley having the attacking mid role.
     
  12. iced1776

    iced1776 Member+

    Dec 4, 2009
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Beckerman looked like a deer caught in headlights these last two games, especially against France. Puts himself in decent enough areas defensively but never actually did anything once he got there (other than handle the ball of course), and never opens up to the right areas when we have the ball. He needs to always be the safety outlet in that spot of the midfield, far too often we have the ball on the wings and Beckerman is nowhere to be found for an easy pass along the ground. Although to be fair almost all of our midfielders other than maybe Bradley are guilty of this.
     
  13. Craig P

    Craig P BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 26, 1999
    Eastern MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It looks like the thing that completely blows up the play defensively is Goodson floating instead of following the man near him as he goes to receive the ball. I would presume, based on the sequence, that Chandler released the man inside because he thought Boca had him, but Boca got sucked to his right to pressure the man that Goodson turned loose. The trouble with the play by Goodson is, there are no threats to his right and he has Cherundolo there to pick them up.
     
  14. iced1776

    iced1776 Member+

    Dec 4, 2009
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Yep this was my thought when the first played the replays, Boca is forced to cover for Goodson who is doing god knows what so far over to the right.

    By the way whoever put that slideshow together, its fantastic! Would love to see that for every goal!
     
  15. Namdynamo

    Namdynamo Member+

    Jan 1, 2005
    Beckerman is a 6 in Klinsmann formation, he stays back and protect the back line more than Edu or Torres, an 8.

    Bob on the other hand uses the double 6 or 8, which Jones and Micheal play together very similar role (pulley system).

    It is a common knowledge that almost every one has agreed on.
     
  16. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    During the Gold Cup Bradley and Jones operated as dual #8 in a 4-2-2-2. There were no attacking or defending mid distinction.

    Against Slovenia Bradley played a pinched in version of the role Donovan played in the GC.

    Edu played very little in the GC a total of ~30 minutes in the the 6 games
     
  17. ricksoccer

    ricksoccer New Member

    Feb 23, 2011
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    My question is where do Donovan and maybe Holden fit into this midfield in the future?

    Johnson/Shea Dempsey Bradley

    Beckerman

    This is the formation that Coach Klinsman seems to be going with Dempsey playing a CAM role behind the strikers, two wingers, and defensive midfielder behind them to clean things up.

    Does Bradley move to take over Beckerman's defensive midfield role that Klinsman wants to have to make room for Landon Donovan as a attacking mid?


    If Holden makes it back does he start centrally or on the wing?

    Should or would Holden start over Brek Shea or Fabian Johnson?

    Who starts centrally in this group if healthy? Dempsey, Bradley, Donovan, or Holden?

    Where does Torres fit into this equation if healthy? Does he start over these guys?


    Alot of questions that need to be answered before qualifying.
     
  18. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    "Common knowledge" around here is like "common knowledge" around /b/.

    Most people around here were clamoring for a 4-5-1 just a year ago. Now they all agree that playing two strikers is better and they all "have been saying so forever."

    Watch the actual games instead of reading what other people say. While Bob used the dual #6 (empty bucket) or dual B2B CMs, in the gold cup he was putting one of the CMs in an exclusively more defensive role and the other a lot forward in a more attacking role.

    Watch the USA-Canada game for example, and see where Jones stayed and how far up Mike ran (first half).
     
  19. Namdynamo

    Namdynamo Member+

    Jan 1, 2005
    Only you (a Canadian) watch the USMNT and we (true US fans) don't?

    I watch every USMNT game atleast twice, pausing and rewinding many times on second watch.

    When I mean common knowledge, I don't mean the BS posters only. Every analyst that follow the USMNT pretty much agree to what I posted above.
     
  20. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    My point is that JK has had success when he's followed the tactical process started by BB.

    I'm not a fan of Bradley. But I believe firmly in processes that should continue, and the USMNT is one that should.

    People here are talking as if using a diamond in midfield JK had discovered the wheel. He's just continuing the process, it was the next step from what Bob did in the Gold Cup at several points. If you're honest about your analysis, you have to realize as much.

    What he tried before was more of a throwback to tactics that had been used before and had stopped working long ago.

    I live in Canada, but my wife is the one who's Canadian (Quebecoise). I'm Franco-American in citizenship (my mom is French, my dad from Argentina, but I grew up in the USA). I know, it's complicated. :D

    I root for France and the USA (and worry a bit about Argentina). But also root for Canada, of course, yet I'm realistic and I know The Reds are weak right now.
     
  21. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's an exaggeration.

    Many posters (including me) wanted to see the 4-5-1 tried after the World Cup because (1) it worked well in the 2nd halves of several WC games, and (2) our glut of central midfield talent was being boosted by Jones' return to health and by Holden's terrific season at Bolton. It made total sense to try it.

    Then, when we watched BB put out several lineups with the sluggish 3-headed central midfield of Bradley-Edu-Jones, we begged to see the experiment end before the Gold Cup.

    It worked in part at the World Cup because the 5th midfielder was Feilhaber and the removed striker was Findley. BB didn't continue that version, however. And Holden's injury seemed like the nail in the coffin.

    But some posters were against the 4-5-1 all along.

    Watching Klinsi's 3-DM midfields the last few months was a painful reminder of BB's failed experiments with the 4-5-1 a year ago.
     
  22. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is just not factual. Both Jones and Bradley played box-to-box CMs in the gold cup. Far from playing a CDM, Jones was likely to be more advanced than Bradley. Look who was leading the break n the Adu triggered goal against Panama at the 1:06 mark. Look who is trying to get back into the play from a more advanced position at the 1:29 mark.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W91EgtJkuQo"]6.22.11 Semifinal Highlights: United States v Panama - YouTube[/ame]

    BB did experiment with a 4-2-3-1 for a few matches post WC playing Edu, Jones, and Bradley at the same time but went back to the 4-2-2-2 by the pre GC friendlies.
     
  23. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jozy should have provided a better option to Buddle than the run downfield r he made out by the touchline while waving his arm. Not much help to Buddle who was quickly under pressure and would have taken a pass Pirlo would struggle to make. Jozy could have moved towards Buddle instead to provide support but I guess the winger in Jozy get the best of him. With Jozy in front along the touchline, it might have been a good option for Johnson to pinch inside, but he stayed out by the touchline as well and Buddle was stranded like he was playing lone forward. Certainly Bradley didn't recognize that EB had few options when he passed him the ball. Slovenia closed EB down quite well and led to a goal.

    I believe the US with current players is better playing 4-4-2 but there is no doubt that there is plenty of room for improvement in the area of decision making regarding when to go forward vs probability of turnover to opposition along with the degree of risk of that turnover. Patience is a virtue.

    As it was, Goodson and Chandler needed to be squeezing into the middle for sure when they saw the pass get around Bradley and the Slovenian midfielder coming at them head up. Not sure what they were thinking. I know Chandler tried to step up for offside but on TV, it still looked like he might have been the one to keep the Slovenian player onside. I might be wrong as it is always hard to tell.
     
  24. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ME, ME, ME..... I have pretty much always insisted we can't play with one forward.

    But I was hoping Klinsi could learn them to play it or find a combo that could. I now remain unconvinced we can play well with it.
     
  25. Fanatical Monk

    Fanatical Monk Member+

    Jun 14, 2011
    Fantasyland
    Beckerman has looked a little out of his element against France and Slovenia. I think he is a good player, but I'm starting to lean towards the Jones crowd.[/quote]

    Have to agree, and I'm a KB fan. When the backs push up like they do in a 442 Diamond, you have to basically play 3 at the back. The guy in the middle (DM) becomes a 3rd cb becoming a physical presense allowing the other backs to move out wide to cover the wings in lieu of the backs. We really could use a Cameron for that role to be honest. He's got the midfield exp and is a damn fine cb too. Not in love with Jones, but do think he'd fit.

    Totally agree, see above re: Jones or Cameron. Basically on offense you're playing a 3-4-3

    It is a falacy that you need to generate offense out of your DM. Watch Barca play sometime and tell me what they get offensively out of that spot. How about Xabi Alonso? Different type of player, but same result. He's a bull with beckham's passing ability.

    Replace Jozy with Buddle and you've got a good lineup I think. Jozy looks the part, but just cannot finish at this level yet. He's still young. I have hope, and want him on my bench. Right now Buddle, Wondo and Gomez are all better finishers. I'd like to see all three get Agudelo length looks to see what we have. I know Gomez would be good on the right in a 442 diamond. He's made for that role. Wondo plays a similar spot very well in SJ.
     

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