11/15 US v. Slovenia; the midfield

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by TinManJoshua, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. Soccergodlss

    Soccergodlss Member+

    Jun 21, 2004
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Kaiserslautern
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I never said he could do no wrong and you may be right that this is a bad habit of his. I would need to look closer at this. I just don't think this play represents that.
     
  2. NatsTeamFan

    NatsTeamFan Member

    May 9, 2011
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    I don't think Shea has the Polish to play the wing in that 4-4-2. I think the best place to try him would maybe be at striker up top with Altidore.
     
  3. cc-atl

    cc-atl Member

    Jul 8, 2005
     
  4. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    Of course. Some people just have set opinions on players and aren't willing to get their views challenged.

    It's shocking really. Certain posters call out the usual player, and then there is justifiable retaliation over the fact that every single other defensive player is lost at sea. The end result is dragging everybody into the mud.
     
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  5. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you freeze the video at 54/55 seconds, you will see that MB is within 2 yards of the ball carrier, right at the centerline. The Slovenian has multiple passing options to left, right and center. I think MB was correct to leave his nominal mark along the right flank, since the center is more important. But is he responsible for closing off all the passing lanes here?

    Beckerman is marking the referee in no-man's land.

    Chandler lets an attacker slip goal-side of him.

    Bradly was solid this game, but made some errors, too. However, I'm not sure he has much responsibility on this goal. The pass goes directly through Beckerman's area of responsibility.
     
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  6. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    I mean I sort of agree with that being a bad habit of his (or rather I think he does the "get close and squat" thing because he's come to realize he doesn't have the lateral quickness to close down space sufficiently without getting turned), but calling him out for that play specifically seems pretty harsh to me, personally.
     
  7. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  8. TinManJoshua

    TinManJoshua Member

    Aug 16, 2006
    Columbus, Ohio
    Club:
    Portsmouth FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree this is a weakness of his. He used to have a very nasty habit of stabbing wildly. When he tried to correct this, it seems he went too far in the other direction. Afraid of getting beat on the dribble, he settles too far away and lets out the easy pass.


    Having said that, there are several other things that had to go wrong in that play to make the mistake he made critical. And it did. Everyone behind him was positioned poorly, and that's not to discount the effort of the Slovenian attackers on the play.
     
  9. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Regarding Beckerman, as I stated on my post on him on my over-pimped blog, his physical limitations kept him from the US team during Bradley's tenure. He lacks the high-end athleticism to cover that much space.

    The openness of this game exposed those same limitations. He was not terrible, but this is a game where I would like to see a Williams or Jones to see if they can do better in a 4 man midfield. I suspect we will next year.
     
  10. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    I would have loved to see D.Williams in Beckerman's role tonight. He is strong, fast and has good skills. Much better athlete to block passing lanes than Beckerman.
    Beckerman reminds me of an updated Chris Armas, its not necessarily what he does its what he just can't do physically.
     
  11. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, they did. But when people question why when the US needs to be better organized defensively, this is exactly the type of play where others options might be favored. Bradley has two choices when he goes to close on this mark - close the ball down or cut off the key angles. He left the most vulnerable angle exposed. He should have closed down the ball.

    Again, though some may not believe it. I like Michael. I think he has a more prominent place on the team than Jurgen has given him and has great qualities. I am tired of having to repeat all this because some posters here take any criticism as a condemnation of the player and use that to make it a personal pissing match.

    Was Beckerman in no-man's land? Yes. And Chandler took a bad angle, and Goodson, per usual, was too deep. All of this helps explain why Klinsmann has been so conservative in constructing his defense and midfield. There are a lot of flaws to cover up. When the US goes for a more free-wheeling game, those flaws are exposed like dominoes.
     
  12. Soccergodlss

    Soccergodlss Member+

    Jun 21, 2004
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Kaiserslautern
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I haven't seen the passing ability or vision from Williams so far to warrant him there. You guys are seeing something I am not. I was actually interested to see him at that LB position where he was played today, because he does seem to do a good job defensively.
     
  13. Soccergodlss

    Soccergodlss Member+

    Jun 21, 2004
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Kaiserslautern
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Truth.
     
  14. Right Foot Planted

    Aug 11, 2007
    What are you talking about?

    (and this has nothing to do with Michael Bradley, fans' preferences or personal insults. It has to do with soccer fundamentals)

    -- contrary to the video already posted, check this one (from 1:53-2:42), which actually shows the buildup to that play.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkRgCGdfRzI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkRgCGdfRzI[/ame]

    In the buildup to Slovenia's first goal, Michael did exactly what a player in his position should do. If he'd regret anything, it would be playing that ball into Buddle's feet; and not because it's a bad ball, but because Buddle probably isn't good enough to take that under pressure, and dispatch it in two touches. It's extremely similar to Ghana's first goal in 2010, with Ricardo Clark (starts at 1:38)
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MpMBEmBBsQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MpMBEmBBsQ[/ame]

    But back to why your criticism of Michael in this play is completely unmerited. So, Michael plays the ball in to Buddle (to his feet), who is immediately closed down by two Slovenians (one in front, one diagonally behind, and a third to the side). Buddle takes two touches to control the ball, then decides to take the ball towards his right (with Altidore breaking into space down the left channel).

    The Slovenian reads him and tackles the ball away, which rolls to another Slovenian, who struggles to get on it (he lunges at the ball). Dempsey applies pressure, but misses the ball, which creates a 3v1 in the midfield with Bradley, who tries to slow down those 3 Slovenians with pressure and geometry.

    Buddle is clearly most at fault for losing possession, but then Dempsey only makes matters worse by pressing the ball instead of hedging against the counter by staying behind the play. This is careless on his part. If he goes in so gung-ho, he either needs to come away with the ball, or halt the player. He does neither.

    (the play then unfolds with Bocanegra pressing high, Beckerman hanging out next to the referee, and Chandler asleep, marking on the outside -- precisely like he did against France. If we're honest, the biggest error in this process is really Chandler, because he leaves the goal scorer completely alone in the wilderness.)

    and yet, you've decided to chastise Michael, who did exactly what a player should do in his position. Because of two careless plays in front of him, he's faced with a 3v1 situation (minute 1:57 on the video). You suggest that he should've pressured the player on the ball even tighter. How would that have helped? It's high risk (a defensive tackle is a last resort, low success option), and the player had 2 other easy passing outlets, both level with the play.

    Michael tried to stall the play (in the whole 2 seconds of that encounter), forced the player on the ball to make the play (who had 4/5 passing options), and prevented an otherwise 6v4 situation in defense, had he gone in and not gotten the ball. Instead, it becomes a 3v6, and had Chandler not left his player open, that shouldn't have been hard to defend.
     
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  15. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :confused:

    I thought he did well against Kaiserslautern. His defensive positioning was great and he managed to break up a few players. His passing was simple, but accurate.

    He didn't do quite as well overall against Schalke, but then again, the whole team was exposed against Schalke's quick strike offense. However I never saw anything wrong with his passing in this game.
     
  16. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I actually appreciate the breakdown of this play, and we may agree to disagree.

    Like I said, Michael has two choices - he can close the man down or cut down the most dangerous angles. I think he should have closed the mark down to cut down the passing angles.

    But I can see your point as well. He can choose to play space there, too. The problem is there is one place where the US is exposed, and that is down the middle. If Bradley is going to play space, he needs to force the pass wide to protect his back line. If you have to close down one angle in transition after a turnover, cut out the vertical pass.

    Those are the fundamentals I grew up learning.

    I do concede based on your breakdown that my initial reaction was harsh. It was probably based on my frustration of watching Bradley not close players down too frequently. But a lot had to go wrong after Bradley took his position, and it did.

    Thanks for the discussion.
     
  17. Arisrules

    Arisrules Member

    Feb 19, 2000
    Washington, DC

    I concur. Of all things to criticize Bradley for, I do not think this play is the one to single out.

    He had a good game. He is very good at FKs (best on the team). He has a good soccer mind. He is never injured. He is consistent. He has heart. He is always there. For me he is the best CM we have by a pretty wide margin (that doesn't mean he doesn't have limitations).

    It's going to be interesting to see how JK works the team. We saw today that our backline and Beckerman are really easily exposed if we do not play two additional d-mids pressuring in the midfield (wait, I thought JK had solved all of our defensive issues). I still think the quintet of Jones/Holden (if he's ever healthy), Bradley, feilheiber, dempsey, and donovan is the best midfield we can roll out there.
     
  18. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It makes me wonder: Does Klinsi just like MB better in this formation? Or did he just think he was due to play based the fact that others have not been great?
     
  19. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley is always going to play the angels he is not really the type of player to close down others. That is why he was usually paired with Edu.

    I like Beckermens work in Klinsi's former system...but Edu probably would have done better on that first goal.
     
  20. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Could be either answer, honestly, because he is playing a similar role in Serie A. And that ambiguity worries me, because I think he's a pretty clear upgrade over Edu in most any central-ish, non-DM roles.
     
  21. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    It is rather harsh on Williams to play him 3 straight times in the formation probably least suitable for an out of position CM, and switch him out when altering the formation in a way that might improve his performance.

    Because playing Bradley as the right midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 would be asking for disaster, or at least poor performance, in the same way it did with Williams.
     
  22. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    It's an interesting question, and I think it applies to Buddle and Johnson as well.

    Klinsmann has intimated in interviews that he sends his idea of his best XI out on the field whenever possible, and that he introduces new players into the lineup when he believes they either have overtaken or can overtake the first choice player at a given position.

    But all of that seemed to assume a single formation. If Klinsmann's not married to any single formation, you would expect him to have different personnel preferences for different formations.
     
  23. jamezyjamez

    jamezyjamez Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    It's a great question...what will JK take from today's match?

    There were a ton of variables at play today...I'd be happy if he would just draw a few basic conclusions:

    * Beckerman is not ready to anchor a two-man center midfield against equal or better quality teams.
    * MB has enough quality to be part of the center midfield picture going forward.
     
  24. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe. If that is the case, he should also consider whether Beckerman is the right player in this formation. That is going to be the reality of almost all the central midfielder options, save Holden if he returns to his form from last season. All the others will be appropriate in some situations, and inappropriate in others.
     
  25. mannycoon

    mannycoon Member

    May 13, 2009
    If you look at the infamous Honduras whiteboard it shows Williams in a deeper, pinched position about even with Edu, in role that looks similar to what Bradley played tonight, obviously what we saw on the field from Williams didn't look like that at all though. It possible Williams was just playing his position completely wrong?
     

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