2001 U20's 1. F Conor Casey 2. F Landon Donovan 3. AM Kyle Martino 4. LM DaMarcus Beasley 5. RM(sort of) Bobby Convey 6. DM a.Kenny Arena b.Brian Carroll c.Kelly Gray 7. LB Phil Salyer 8. CB Alex Yi 9. CB Nelson Akwari 10. RB Oguchi Onyewu 11. GK DJ Countess 2003 U20's 1. F Ed Johnson 2. F Santino Quaranta 3. AM Bobby Convey 4. LM Justin Mapp 5. RM Devin Barclay 6. DM Ricardo Clark 7. LB Jordan Harvey 8. CB Chad Marshall 9. CB Ryan Cochrane 10. RB CJ Klaas 11. GK Steve Cronin Advantage 1. F 2001 team 2. F 2001 team 3. AM 2003 team 4. LM 2001 team 5. RM 2001 team 6. DM 2003 team 7. LB 2001 team 8. CB 2003 team 9. CB 2003 team 10. RB 2001 team 11. GK 2001 team I have the 2001 team stronger in 7 of the 11 positions. I gave the 2001 team the advantage at both forward spots because of the experience that Donovan and Casey had playing in Europe as well as the olympic games. I feel the 2003 team is stronger though down the spine of the field, Convey and Clark seem to be more skilled as well as more athletic than their predecessors. The same goes for Marshall and Cochrane at Center Back. But I felt that the 2001 team was far superior on the wings. Beasley and Convey playing out of positiion would still run circles around Devin Barclay on the right, and either one is superior to Justin Mapp on the left. At outside Back Philip Salyer is a slightly better player than Jordan Harvey, but the Onyewu to Klaas comparison is not really all that close. The Cronin to Countess comparison I thought was pretty close but I gave it to Countess because of the professional training atmosphere Countess was getting with the metrostars prior to the tournament
Pretty good analysis IMHO, but I do have a few disagreements. To begin with, Eddie Johnson, at this level, is 100% better than Connor Casey. Casey wasn't exactly a goal machine at this level, whereas Johnson has been incredibly productive. I'll give you Donovan over Santino, but really all three of Donovan, Johnson and Santino are in the 9/10 category as far as attackers go, while Connor Casey is really a 5. If you put the two together I'd take the Johnson-Santino pair 10 times out of 10. Yes, Connor has proven himself in Germany ... but you're not comparing that, you're comparing those teams at the time ... at leat that's what I thought you were comparing, heh. Another big point of contention is that the 2003 team is far superior down the center IMHO. The center backs for the 2001 team kinda sucked compared to the rest of the team, and the Dmids were also a weak spot. That's a bad combination to have defensively. Also, while Martino has a world of ability, he often just didn't perform internationally, and that forced Donovan to have to slide back into midfield to even get the ball. This left Connor Casey (the aforementioned mediocre forward) as your scoring option. Not good. While I'm a big fan of Kenny Arena--the best of those 3 Dmids--he cannot hold a candle to Ricardo Clark. Frankly, Jordan Stone the 2nd string Dmid for the 2003's is significantly better than any of the 2001 Dmids. The back line of the 2001's lacked an organizer, so while they had decent individual talent, they didn't play well at all. The 2003's have at least as much talent, but the real difference is that Cochrane (and to a lesser extent Marshall) keep that back line organized. While Onyewu oozes potential and is a silky smooth player, I'm not convinced that CJ Klaas's performances haven't been at least close to Gooch's. This kid has really come on! It's just too bad that Chefik Simo couldn't be playing right now or the 2001 back line would really be something to watch. Finally, Bobby Convey, older and playing centrally, really does wonders for this team. His vision, speed, holding ability, unpredictable scoring, and ability to control the flow of the game really changes the dynamics of things. I agree with most of your assessments, but given the choice of the 2001 or the 2003 team, I'd choose the 2003 team ... and try to prevent DaMarcus and Landon from getting behind me. -Tron
Tron, how can you say the centerbacks on the 03 20s are better then the 01s when you haven't ever seen them play. I mean, be honest. If Chad Marshall or Ryan Cochrane knocked on your door in their uniforms, you wouldn't know who they are. And, I'm guessing you don't get out to the Bay Area too often to catch their college games at Stanford and Santa Clara. So, since you haven't seen the center backs play, how can you say they're better than the last version? And for that matter, when have you EVER seen C.J. Klaas play? Obviously you haven't or there is NO way you'd think he comes close to Onyewu. I mean, how do you know he's "coming on?" Based on what? All the games you saw him play with Washington this year? Tron, I like you and your enthusiasm but statements like this don't do much for enthusiasm.
Very good analysis. A couple of points that I'd like to add. #1 Countess signed with MLS after the World Cup in Argentina. He also had a trial in Norway. It's not unreasonable to assume that Countess is a better keeper, but Cronin should do well. #2 I think the Johnson and Quaranta tandem has an advantage in that they have much more experience playing together compared to LD and Casey. Casey and Donovan never looked to be on the same page. The '01 US seemed to play better with Edson Buddle in the lineup. #3 I'd rate Harvey and Salyer a draw. Neither player is going to dominate a game. #4 I think Klaas is a very solid player. I believe beineke compared him to Richard Mulrooney, which IMHO is a good description of the type of things he can bring to the team. But, yeah Gooch would be rated higher. #5 The key improvement in the current squad will be the play of Convey and Clark. If we can generate chances through the middle and defend the middle, this should allow the '03 offense to be more dynamic. #6 Barclay and Mapp might not be as good as Convey, Beasley and even Davis, but they shouldn't be a liability either. #7 The central defense is a question mark, IMHO. I don't know if we have improved at those spots.
Have to agree with Tron. Quaranta and Johnson both are signifigant improvements over Conor Casey. Hell, I thought Buddle was an improvement over Casey coming off the bench. In fact I would estimate that overall the 03 team could be much more prolific on the attacking end. Donovan and Beasley often were doing so much work that they strung themselves out. Both Tino and EJ can hold the ball, dribble at the defense and create shots from outside. Basically I think they have the ability to build the attack around them in a way that was missing in 01. Conor was pretty one-dimensional at this level and although Donovan is certainly dangerous he was and is a hybrid player in the style of Baggio and is often most dangerous setting people up. The critical element will be how much more effective Convey will be. If he can do a better job holding and creating out of midfield than Martino did then I think the 03 squad could be much more effective. I don't know enough about the 03 backline to draw comparisons, but knowing that Jordan Stone is coming off the bench on the 03 squad I would have to guess that the D-Mid situation is much improved over the 01 squad because Stone has always impressed me.
yes, this is what Im comparing, but my point was that I felt that Casey at this time was a superior player to Johnson. I think Johnson has a ton of potential, but Casey had the experience of playing older international competition in the Olympic games, he was also getting training with a European team. I felt that this would give him an advantage over a player who is not getting that much playing time for the Burn I was agreeing with you here I definitely feel that this 2003 team is superior down the center of the field. I said that I had the 2001 team superior in 7 of the 11 positions but in a couple of positions, GK, LB, and both forward spots, the difference is not that much. I think that with the 2003 teams superior strenght down the center of the field, they would be able to control the game and they would beat the 2001 team
I'm not taking sides here, just tossing in my opinion. I've seen both Alex Yi and Ryan Cochrane play in person. I was not impressed with Yi, especially with all the build up he had at the time. I watched Cochrane in the last game before he left to go to camp. He dominated the center, winning EVERY high ball in his area. He also made some skillful runs with the ball. In comparing these two, Cochrane is definately better.
I agree with this sentiment, and am therefore looking forward to watching this team play so I can form a few opinions. But isn't this sort of stuff exactly what you do all the time? My apologies if you've seen all the college players you've highlighted in person.
Apology accepted, as I have seen almost all of the players that I talk about. And, if I haven't seen them, I point that fact out, like I did with Zak Whitbred. Like you, Dave, I'm fortunate to live in the DC-area, which means I get to see college games from teams in the ACC, Big East, Atlantic 10, Patriot League, Colonial Athletic Association and the league that Howard is in, the name of which I forget. Primarily because of the ACC and to a lesser degree, the Big East, schools, I get to see a lot of the top youth players and evaluate them first hand. Now, my evaluation doesn't mean squat in terms of whether these guys make it or not as A) I'm not involved in US Soccer and B) there's a good reason for that, but, it lets me speak about the players in question from first hand experience. I'm also lucky (from a soccer perspective, not a marriage one!) in that for work I have to travel about once a month and in my free time on the road I always try to take in a game, be it MLS, college, PDL, a top youth tournament or the youth national teams . I've had to go to San Diego sevral times and often when I've been there one of our national teams has been training at Chula Vista and I've seen several games there. I've also been to US Soccer Festival 2 of the past 3 years and I saw 2 of the 17s qualifying games in St. Louis and was fortunate that US Youth Soccer has had its national championship in our area and I saw some players there, though that's not the best gauge for evaluating them. I also was in Tampa on business once a few months ago and caught the 17s scrimmage a local team in Bradenton. Further, it's a tradition that some friends of mind and I from college always try to get together at the ACC tournament. I missed last year but am leaving tonight, after watching the 20s, for Cary. I've also been to 5 of the past 7 Final Fours, missing the one in Charlotte in 2000. In otherwords, I've watched a LOT of soccer and been able to see a LOT of prospects. Some have been easy to spot, others, I've seen several times and never saw what the pro scouts saw and I've been wrong, like with Kyle Martino and Eddie Robinson, who I never thought would make it in MLS, let alone the national team, which just goes to show what I know. Of the current U20 team, I've seen almost all of them. Barclay - MLS, 20s (the last U20 team) Baumstark - never seen play Cameron - US Soccer Festival, Michigan Clark - US Soccer Festival, USYSA championship Cochrane - US Soccer Festival Convey - MLS, 17s, 20s (the last U20 team) Cronin - 17s, US Soccer Festival David Johnson - 17s Eddie Johnsson - MLS, 17s Harvey - 17s Klaas - US Soccer Festival Lancos - 17s, Maryland Grabavoy - Final Four Mapp - MLS, 17s Marshall - 17s Quaranta - MLS, 17s Simek - never seen play Stone - MLS, 17s Williams - 17s, North Carolina Look, sometimes we all talk out of our asses and on BigSoccer, we do it a little more than we do in real life. So, I don't begrudge anyone a little hyperbole or for making assumptions based on things they have read or heard. My point was that if you are going to make an evalation where you compare the talents of 2 players, it's pretty damned hard to make an evaluation and say one group or person is better than the other when you haven't ever seen the people you are proclaiming as better.
Fair enough. The previous (pre-emptive) apology was sincere. To be honest, I didn't think it was humanly possible for anyone to have seen as many college players as you apparently have.
U20 01 Comparison I've seen almost all of the West Coast Players and the team this year has to be weaker than 01. Watching mainly UCLA,Irvine,Northridge,Fullerton and San Diego, several games come to mind. Serveral 01 Pool Players on USD, McCausland and Turk. I've seen Harvey get embarassed by McCausland and Cochrane have serious trouble with McCauslands Speed. Turk shut down Cochrane whenever he pushed up for Santa Clara. So If these are starter's for this years team and they were a level below the 01, pool players...this speaks for maybe some problems that will show up this year? I also was at a game with U20/01 vs USD and besides the fighting, the west coast players from UCLA,Portland had been at war with USD. Both Marino, Grey, Sayler vs McCausland,Suarzo, Werndale was intense soccer, the UCLA defense vs Coiner was no contest, defense won. This 01 team was just more physical and faster. The 03 has more skill, will that be enough.
In retrospect I shouldn't have used the words "kinda suck" in describing the 2001 team. For that I appoligize. I do think they are all extremely talented, I just do not think that as a team they were as good as the current central defenders on the 2003 team are. As for the ad hominem attack against me, I'll attribute that to you standing up for players that you feel were dissed. I should have worded my statements better. But, you presume quite a lot for never having met me. Since we both live in the DC area, and apparently attend at least some of the same events, I'd be delighted to finally meet you Sandon. You just might find that some of your assertions are mistaken. As for my opinions about the teams, I think I am correct. It's not a contest, merely an exchange of ideas and opinions. You didn't much care for my assertion that IMHO Justin Mapp has at least as much potential as Brad Davis. You belittled my opinion then. I stand by my opinion. When I said that Ricardo Clark was a tremendous talent and could compete for either a starting spot or significant minutes on several MLS teams you tried to make me seem stupid. I didn't care for that. You listed every MLS team and Dmid and attempted to state your opinion as an obvious consensus that Ricardo could not compete. BTW, that is not the consensus. While we agree on the vast majority of analyses of the US youth players, I don't think I need to justify my opinion every time we disagree. If you would like to discuss my credentials, then let's meet and discuss them. Otherwise, please refrain from the ad hominem attacks. Thank you, -Tron
Cochrane is definitely a better player than Yi... He impressed me very much vs. Haiti, while I always thought that Yi was a bit of a liability, and was not decisive enough. The back line is FAR more organized now than it was then, and I attribute this to Cochrane as well. He is also a threat to score on set plays. Mapp is at least equal to DMB or Brad Davis as a LM at this point as well. I would say better than either. He is in the top five talents on the team I would argue.
I'm a big Justin Mapp fan, but he's definitely not as good as DaMarcus Beasley right now. And I'm not just saying that because he sat 2 seats away from me at the restaurant, heh. DaMarcus plays well in combination, but Justin is still feeling his way at learning that at the faster levels (i.e. MLS, youth international). DaMarcus also plays far better defense. Both are lightning quick and very fast with excellent dribbling skills and very good fits for left wings. Justin is taller, stronger and more solid. Justin has an excellent ability to create space and get off a quick cross that is very very difficult to defense. His future looks very bright. But the last 3 years have really helped DaMarcus develop, and right now DaMarcus is simply better and a far more complete player IMHO. Give Justin time though, and if he addresses his weaknesses and refines his game, he certainly has fantastic skills and a world of potential. -Tron