¿Quién ganará la Sudamericana 2012?

Discussion in 'Copa Libertadores / Sudamericana' started by JAIME CHILE, Oct 26, 2012.

?

¿Quién ganará la Sudamericana 2012?

  1. Grêmio(BRA)

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  2. São Paulo(BRA)

    4 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Universidad de Chile(CHI)

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  4. Universidad Católica(CHI)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Tigre(ARG)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Independiente(ARG)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Cerro Porteño(PAR)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Millonarios(COL)

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA

    We can offer plenty of security. Boca Juniors, CARP, Estudantes, Velez... they've been to Sao Paulo, Rio, Belo Horizonte, Santos, etc., and this stuff did not happen.

    Once again: Tigre's players went after SPFC's locker room. The security guards were there and violence ensued. FOX Deportes is manned by Argentine anchormen and they were understandably going to be emotional and tilt the coverage towards their countrymen. But now we know that security guards were injured while trying to keep Tigre out of SPFC's locker room.

    Tigre is not innocent in this as you said. They began this fight and now they're trying to come across as poor little victims. Nonsense. They aren't "Carmelitas." They couldn't win in the pitch and they tried to win with fists. They did neither, and backed out alleging they were assaulted out of nowhere and refused to play the second half against a much better team.

    The 2012 Copa Sul-Americana rests in the hands of its rightful and deserved owners: São Paulo Futebol Clube.
     
  2. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Argentine fans have no reason to side with a Brazilian team in something like this. IF indeed Tigre had been completely innocent, why then not side with one of their own?
     
  3. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    hombre, por mas que los jugadores de tigre tmabien hayn provocado las cosas......no exonera, la violencia con la que procedio el equipo de seguridad que su tarea debe ser PREVENTIVA....no golpear a los jugadores, asi estos provoquen

    Los jugadores de tigre, provocan aca en el campin contra millonarios, calentaban a un estadio lleno.....provocando y haciendo gestos irrespetuosos a la hinchada (hasta me da alivio no ahber pasado a la final, viendo como se hacen las cosas alla)............pero eso NO JUSTIFICA, que un pais que va ofrecer la seguridad de los mejore sjuagdores del mundo en 2 años, tenga como recurso para acabar problemas agredir juagdores.....



    las imagenes hablan por si solas:





    ps: Gremio player also destroyed, the locker rooms in Bogota, i dont remebered that milloanrios security attacked them
     
    cigar_city repped this.
  4. Kempa

    Kempa Member

    Sep 6, 2007
    Washington Suburbs
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    So what is the lesson learned? That three security guards are not enough to prevent 30 players from trying to break in? To prepare for something like this, you have to learn from previous confrontations and imagine a worst-case scenario. What happened went beyond the worst case scenario.

    Should the WC stadiums install steel doors to protect the players from the other team? This is a possibility, but shouldn't players also be civilized enough to not even attempt to break into the other team's locker room?

    In the WC, the players from the opposing teams meet in the "zona mista" before entering the field. Should we go back to having three separate entrances? That is what we had yesterday, and it wasn't enough.
     
  5. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    un cursito de evitar falacias argumentativas no te caeria mal......

    ademas, en ningun momento nadie esta exonerando responsabilidad a los de tigre.....pero como manejaron las cosas de forma animal, los guardias de sao paulo, si es reprochable....y merece consceuncias
     
    cigar_city repped this.
  6. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    hay versiones periodisticas que hablan mas de 3 guardias de seguridad.....uno no se puede quedar solo con la version que le conviene........

    la seguridad pa un mundial debe preveer TODo, jugadores de mala conducta, peleas......no, contar con los jugadores civilizados.......

    acuerdense que a tigre no le dejaron hacer reconocimient de cancha (lo dijeorna ntes dle aprtido) y las ventanas del bus tambien se las rompieron

    obvio, que no les vana quitar el mundial, pero proxima denuncia en libertadores sobre atropello a un equipo visitante va estar muy grave




    pd: odio a tigre, quede muy riste con la eliminacion de mi equipo por ese equipo tan malo, me le iba a sapo paulo en la final.......pero lo que se hizo, ayer fue un atropello de autoridad
     
  7. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    people should understand, that if tigre started, that doesnt mean that security guards( that some verison says that was 15) can use force agianst players......
     
  8. Kempa

    Kempa Member

    Sep 6, 2007
    Washington Suburbs
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Por supuesto, pero hasta que punto llegaremos? Construyr estádios como si fueran un cárcel? No es la experiencia que nosostros ni el mundo quieren.

    Hasta que salen de la zona mixta, están juntos jugadores de los dos equipos y árbitros. Así quiere FIFA, aunque en Morumbi entran por áreas separadas.

    Los de Tigre dijeron ayer que los guardaespaldas de São Paulo les esperaban abajo. Dijeron que les pegaron por quince minutos. Los de Fox Deporte repitieron que el área se veía como una zona de guerra. Nada. Lucas vertió más sangre en la cancha que los de Tigre.

    São Paulo talvez tendrá que jugar un partido en cancha neutra, o a más de 100 km. Los de Tigre se rehusaran a regresar, y pagarán muy caro por su acto. Talvez no jueguen en Libertadores.
     
  9. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    Yes, whatever the brazuca Cantinflas(habla mucho y no dice nada) and his partner are saying makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:
    The Tigre players went after the San Pablo locker room. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. How didn't I think of that? They're playing in a hostile stadium, in Brazil, thousands of fans in the stands, all they see is 20 security thugs in front of them, some of them armed.
    Yeah! let's go and get them! in their own locker room!
    Yeah that seems logical.
    Case closed.

    Now the swift Conmebol system of justice will take care of it.
    Nothing to worry about.

    Keep walking. Nothing to see here.
     
    pepinointer repped this.
  10. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
  11. RiverGaucho

    RiverGaucho Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Stop groping all argentines together- Tigre are a bunch of cagones- que se vayan al carajo- and by the way, they have Uruguayans and Paraguayans on their team so how do you know it wasn't them?
     
  12. cigar_city

    cigar_city Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Likely where I should NOT be...
    Club:
    Newell s Old Boys
    ... Says the American living in Buenoa Aires.

    You're right, River fans deserve their own category apart from the rest - the most insufferable of them all ... like you! ;)

    RG, are you going to even watch Chelsea-Corinthians, since neither are mighty, mighty River?
     
  13. LaFuriaNolan

    LaFuriaNolan Member

    Jan 11, 2009
    Montréal
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Do we actually know that Tigre started it, and even if they did, the claims aren't exaggerated? Right now all we know is it's one word against another. Why should we trust the words of Brazilian security guards and an SPFC VP any more than we should Tigre?
     
    locoxriver repped this.
  14. Santista1962

    Santista1962 Red Card

    Sep 9, 2011
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Just saw this in the news:

    The Tigre team just retracted their statements about the firearms lol

    According to CONMEBOL regulations, the club needs to get kicked out of this coming Libertadores and every international match for 3 years as well as a fine of 100 grand according to Article 18.1.
     
  15. cigar_city

    cigar_city Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Likely where I should NOT be...
    Club:
    Newell s Old Boys
    What is contained in those regulations which would require their removal from the tournament? Getting their asses kicked by SPFC private security thugs?
     
  16. Steazy McCloud

    Feb 13, 2012
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    if this ends up being true, would that mean that Independiente would take their spot? jajaja it could end up being a Libertadores with two 2nd level teams if Independiente doesnt drastically get their shit together.
     
  17. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I read that depending on the conclusion of their investigations, either Tigre or SPFC would be disqualified from the Libertadores.
     
  18. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Indeed, I saw it myself.

    What I find now very suspicious is this: if indeed Tigre's original version of events - that 10 or so large-sized, physically imposing men were simply waiting for them in their locker room and proceeded to assault them was the truth - then they would insist to the end that this was the story. But now, they are saying that there was some kind of confusion (altercation, fight, call it whatever) but they won't even say how it started.

    If someone jumps me out of nowhere for whatever reason, and I fight back and sustain injuries, and I later go to the precinct to talk to the cops about it, I'm not going to "forget" that the other guy/guys attacked me first for no reason. NO! I will tell them I was doing nothing and was suddenly assaulted.

    Did they forget, in a mere hours' time, that those large men attacked them for no reason? (sarcasm on)

    And now we know they did not tell the Brazilian police about the firearms. Why not, if this indeed occurred, as players and team staff from Tigre stated, many of them on live Fox, with Argentine anchormen interviewing them as it happened? Why did they omit this particularly very important detail if it indeed happened?
     
  19. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    That's a good point. We do not know at this time WHICH Tigre player/players went after SPFC's locker room. Lucas Orban, though, is Argentine.
     
  20. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA

    There were THREE at first and reinforcements were called. This was already explained before. What part of this do you find difficult to comprehend? Even if security guards are very physically large and strong, three of them will have difficulty against 15 or so soccer players who, if not physically very strong each, often are tall, 6' or more, and agile and fast, and can punch and kick.

    And if you think a security guard is some kind of unbeatable behemoth, go online and look at what Boca fans recently did to private security guards in a recent match. Let's just say the security guards themselves needed security.
     
  21. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    y yo por que me tengo que creer la version de tus 3 guardias de seguridad por que, lso brazileros le dicen? ......

    los fans, usan cuchillos, y diferentes tipos de armas....los juagdores, estan cobijados a sanciones deportivas......

    el uso de la fuerza esta prohibido.......pobre el equipo qeu le gane a brazil en el mundial
     
  22. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    In the same vein - why should I believe Tigre who said the security guards were waiting for them in their locker room?

    And finally - Tigre first said there were guns. Then they changed their story. They even said there was an altercation but didn't say how it started.

    Why did they change their story in a few hours?

    Because they LIED. They were going to get a historic defeat on the pitch, tried to be tough, got beaten up by security, got scared, and refused to return to the pitch. Boca, CARP, Estudiantes, Velez would have returned no matter what.
     
  23. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    nadie esta negando, que sao paulo merecio ganar, si es por mi que les regalen todas las 5 copas posteriores a ustedes brazileros ........al parecer para ustedes el fin justifica los medios.......y hay que ganar como sea.........mi reproche, va que como el poroximo organizador del munidial, como unico recurso con problemas, es darle palos a los jugadores (que son los protagonistas) HAY IMAGENES, de como quedaron agredidos, el brazo de galamrini, el ojo de escobar.....

    como dijo guri , tampoco es muy creible la historia, de que un equipo viistante se vaya a meter al camerino de un equipo local en el morumbi, con toda la hinchada en contra


    donde esta el link, que cmabiaron la historia? gorosito sigue diciendo lo mismo?


    SAO PAULO CAMPEON 2012 feliz???? pero que vergonzozo como tratan a los visitiantes
     
  24. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Ojala tanto tigre y sao paulo sean suspendidos de torneos internacionales ..........eso si, que les den la sudamericana que al parecer eso es lo unico que le importa a esto a Century's Best
     
    Steazy McCloud repped this.
  25. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

    Nov 16, 2007
    Argentina.
    Club:
    CA Independiente
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina

    Blah blah, Botta got elbowed before Lucas, the referee didn't call anything either, in fact in many occassions he should've called a foul for either side he just let the play continue. As usual, the brazilian substitute keeper, Doni, came out to hit somebody(I think it was Botta) the referee sent off Miranda for unknown reasons... Plus the São Paulo players said they didn't know what happened at the locker room, they never spoke of an invation that was made up by the brazilian media.

    Mind you, but the rules say that teams should be allowed to do that, even if Tigre didn't(remember they didn't play at their stadium). Somehow I believe this is what may have triggered the locker room incidents.

    And the president probably should be sanctioned too, in the end he kind of said that "the best part of this victory was the argentines running away".




    That was mainly CONMEBOL's fault because the place where the match was to be played was decided TWO DAYS BEFORE THE MATCH, note that the possibility of the match being played even in La Plata existed. Also São Paulo and CONMEBOL managed the tickets for the second leg poorly, alledgedly São Paulo was giving Tigre 4500 tickets because Tigre accepted to let them 4500 tickets(though it wasn't sold out) but on the week-end it was still unknown the amount of tickets Tigre was getting, São Paulo wanted to give them 700 only! In the end Tigre a bit over 2000, ah yeah, but they didn't actually get the tickets, they had to buy a reservation in here and then get the actual tickets at the hotel Tigre's players were staying in São Paulo, basically São Paulo was trying to give them least amount of tickets possible when they had agreed something else and in top of everything CONMEBOL didn't actually give Tigre the tickets. FEW HOURS BEFORE THE MATCH Tigre supporters wanted to trade the reservations for the tickets. Surprise! There weren't enough tickets for the all the reservations, because apparently they resold them to people with no reservation for 300 reais, in the end Tigre's club staff somehow managed to get more tickets for the people who had reservation... Ah yeah and the people were guided by the police into a favela so people who were in the favela but had no ticket could sneak in...



    Argentine are as sore losers as brazilians are misbehaved winners.



    Read above, and from the beginning things were strange, the police guiding the supporters on weird directions, the players' and the players' families bus driven in circles to take about half hour longer than expected to arrive at the stadium, Tigre having to train 2 hours away from the hotel(?),



    Tigre made a complaint to the local authorities.
     

Share This Page