"Again?" Color me confused, but I missed your player comparisons from earlier in this admittedly long thread. Generally, what you write here doesn't seem too different from what I thought I was putting across. Both you and I are comparing Navels to Tangerines, but it is fun nonetheless. Tim
I think you can get a lot closer than what he did. Sanneh and Adu? Completely different roles. Olsen '98 versus Olsen '06? Completely different roles. BC and ABMOD - different, but not completely different roles.
Sanneh was right mid in 1998, Adu is the same today. Granted, those were two different systems, but there you go. Comparing Olsen 98 vs 06 was for fun...it is obvious they play different roles, but you gotta have a little fun with this, right? Ok, guess not. Tim
Sorry. I critiqued someone else who did an almost identical comparison, but it might have been on the MLS:N&A version of this thread. I think that you can do a fairly valid position by position comparison, but you have to be more judicious in who you are actually comparing to one another. Sanneh was more like what Gros is now, even if they play on opposite sides of the field. Freddy is a lot like what the old Olsen was. Olsen now is a lot more like what Harkes was (although on a slightly different part of the field). Basically I think a case can be made for either '06 or '98 being better. If anything, that speaks to the credit of '06 since they do not have as many trophies (yet) to prove their overall quality. In general, I think there is a tendency to overstate the qualities of the older team, because it is rare that we remember detailed examples of the mistakes teams of the past made (rampant fouling that slowed play down, the limitations of Tony Sanneh and guys like Carey Talley that were very much present, etc). I mean - we all praise Tony Sanneh to the hilt now, but he made a lot of wild crosses, benefitted from lax rules on what constitutes an assist and was not as good an all-around dynamo as Josh Gros. I imagine that by the time that Gros is 25 (as Sanneh was when he entered the league) that he is going to give Tony a run for his money as a better player with very similar stats (despite playing a more defensive role). Sorry if I was too negative.
98 Olsen was way better than 06 Olsen! I love Benny, but before heading off to England and suffering recurring leg injuries he was an excellent player, much better than he is now, as well as being a lot quicker. Remember the goal he scored for the USMNT against Germany in S. America? A beauty! At the time I thought he was going to become the best American player in the World (this is before anyone had heard of Landycakes or DMB, remember). Benny was never the same after his lengthy injuries. Now he bases his game mostly on hustle but back then he was an American Christian Gomez, very creative (but with Etch on the same team it was difficult for him to be as creative as he could be). All credit to him for making it back, I love the guy for his effort. But if you think he is a better player now, you either never saw him play back then, or... you are simply wrong.
I hate bringing up a thread that might've died, but I'm bored at work today Y'all might remember this article by Waldo: http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20041001&content_id=15891&vkey=news_mls&fext=.jsp (Arena) knows that when you're king, nobody will stand up to you, at least not publicly. Waldo played professionally and in the World Cup so I'll take his word for what's said/not said by players in public. It's just a shame Bruce came out on the interview like he did (namely, a pompous *ss) I hope he learns from it or something. He was our successful coach for years.
Sorry but Waldo is an idiot. With all that criticism he still said he agreed with everything Arena said, just not how he said it. Also Waldo claimed that these types of outbursts would mean an MLS team wouldn't want him as coach, wrong again, as usual. Walo is the poster boy for talking out of school and criticizing coaches, or other players in public, His ego is every bit as big as Arena's.
Certainly, Bruce Arena is bitter. In a few comments, he sounds more like a whiny teenager - who hasn't learned valuable life lessons - than a professional. Having said that, I've read both the interview and even took a look at that old MLS article by Eric Wynalda. First off, I think Eric has no right to talk. I admit I like Eric better now, even with his vocal criticisms - they are usually spot-on. But, I still have visions of a substituted Eric defiantly silent, walking off the pitch and right past Steve Sampson who was trying to give him some support or condolence in a World Cup match. Eric was ignoring his coach like... well, like a whiny teenager - who ... you get the picture. I think Bruce has a lot of great things to say. I agree with him that the American players has improved. I also agree with him that there aren't many foreigners that can stand up to a Marco Etcheverrey or even Peter Nowak. I think it would be fair to say that the foreign talent in the league isn't bringing anything new, exciting, or creative compared to what the league originally had. (...excluding DeRosario and maybe a few others...) I don't know if this year's DC club compares to the ones in 98. I, for one, thought the league probably looks a lot worse when watching tapes from the first few years. How much of that has to do with the play or the broadcasts, etc... I don't know. But, perhaps that DC team was better than the one this year. I don't however, think it would be a joke to compare them. Still, another thing I DO like about this inteview is that Bruce is passionate and controversial. I also think that Bruce Arena is right about the fact that contributions to the league so far have been great, but there is more that can be done. I think there is much more that could have been done long ago. What I think the perspective lacks is the compassion that the people running the show had no experience, no help, poor ideas, and poor direction. Even Garber, who has taken the game closer to the international standard, still tries to make our league 'American' with its marketing. Since being introduced to soccer, especially in the EPL, I've always seen soccer as more of a classy sport, comparable to the early days of baseball or even the prestige of golf. Maybe marketing that is difficult. But, there are thousands and thousands of people who pack stadiums now for clashes with top European clubs, so I'm not so sure. If it's true that Bruce is telling RB not to use big money to attract a top player, but instead to produce a training center/academy for player development - including youth, I think that's the right perspective. Even if we had the top players here in the US, we wouldn't fill stadia week after week. I believe that the reason the stadia are packed are because they're few and far between. Soccer needs to be grown slowly. Purchasing big names isn't the answer. Bruce has good ideas. He's not a genius. He is responsible, mostly, for the collapse at the World Cup. He's right about the deficiencies of US Soccer and MLS. He's maybe wrong that each entity should operate independent of one another. He's right to put more money on developing young players. He's a guy who can get a lot done. But, I think Nowak could easily take the US team to great places. I would like to see him try.
1. So if Eric says it, it's true? b. So if Eric writes a column in 2004 about how Bruce Arena deals with suits at the Fed, that is automatically a perfect comparison for how his players talk about him? iii. Eric Wynalda is the only person willing to speak the truth and all the players who have ever played for Bruce Arena are liars and asskissers. You're a ********ing genius.
I think you're C-A-T (SCHMAAAAT) too. Which way did he go?? Which way did he go??? Here's more Wynalda on Arena and the USMNT from 2006: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=357381&root=us&cc=5901
Which doesn't back up your claims about Wynalda, as he proves again that he's an idiot. If Arena had a love affair with McBride, then Wynalda's having one with Twellman. My favorite part of the article "Strikers, Wynalda observed, often set the tone for a team, especially in major events like the World Cup." So Eric, what kind of tone did you set for the '98WC? I'm sure it's easy for strikers to score in the EPL but if the defend in Germany, how did Wynalda score more goals than McBride did in the EPL? I guess he's just that much of a better player
"SI.com: Do you see any similarities between Guevara and Marco Etcheverry when he played for you at D.C. United? Arena: There are similarities, but they are certainly different players. I think this team will be as good as Amado lets them be right now. But there's not a team in this league as talented as the D.C. United teams I had. SI.com: Not the current D.C. team? Arena: No. Are you kidding me?" I kinda have to agree with him on this one. I remember before the season when Comcast was playing their best 10 games for the first 10 years in DC, I was watching some of them with a good friend of mine and we were marveling at the personnel on some of those teams. We were stacked! I also agree that the overall quality of players in the league has gotten better, but it has lost that player who can change the game with one moment of brilliance. There use to be many players capable of this, Etecheverry, Vallderama, Cienfuegos, etc., now they are few and far between. DCU is great now, but I remember watching a game in 1998 and we were down by two with 10 minutes left and I was confident that we would tie or win. We don't have that bit of magic anymore.
Even though Arena lost to the LA Galaxy, a loss in the CCC to a "Mexican side" is a reason to say the BA wasn't as good in his stint as DCU coach as he is regarded?
I would say Arena was a pretty darn good coach in this league (put his team at the top at the only time teams started out nominally the same), and probably will be again, but it would be difficult at this point for his skill level to catch up to his self worth.
I know. My point was that even if he had lost to a Mexican side in Mexico it shouldn't be used as something to degrade what he did at DCU.
I already acknowledged my mistake in regards to the loss to Necaxa and no it doesn't negate BA's great accomplishments. Moreover, it doesn't show that Nowak's teams are inferior to those early DCU teams. My point was that BA never had to face a good international side in their home stadium. The CCC and InterAmerica Cups were both won in MLS stadiums. Had United dealt with the travel, away supporters, and the dodgy officiating that US sides have endured in South and Central America I don't know that he would have been as successful in those competitions. I think it is the general consenus that the '98 team is the best in United's short history. I've used this year as a measuring stick to gauge today's United. In '98 the Shoot Out was still in use and the '98 team had 7 Shoot Out wins and 3 losses. Change United's record to the format used today and the '98 team comes in with a W-L-T of 17-5-10 in 32 regular season games with 74 GF and 48 GA. Shoot out goals weren't counted in these totals. A Shoot Out win garnered 1 point so the '98 team would have ended up with 61 points in today's format instead of the 58 they totaled. The '06 team has a record of 13-2-8 in 23 games with 39 GF and 20 GA. This team is on pace to finish with 20 fewer goals allowed then the '98 team and has already bested their shut out total with 8. '06 sits on 47 points with 11 games left. Given our games won/total games ratio we'll likely win 6 more games and that will best the '98 team with 69 points. The only area where the '98 team will be better is GF. '06 United is on pace to score 57.8, 16.2 fewer than the '98 team in 2 more games. Bruce is full of it as far as I'm concerned when he dismisses today's DC United, the players, and coaches.
Not to quibble too much here, but I think the game that destroyed Presthus was actually the previous game, against Olimpia of Honduras. I remember watching it at Guapo's, plane tickets in hand and ready to fly to Las Vegas the next day. In the dying moments of our 1-0 victory, Presthus amazingly comitted an absolutely stupid foul on an Olimpia player, giving them a PK. It looked like we had absolutely blown it ... and then they missed the PK.
I remember seeing his eyes and body language during the Necaxa game. In the first half he was doing ok and seemed focused. After the horrid giveaways that led to the goals, he looked so rattled and as if Necaxa were attacking from everywhere and that everyone on the pitch had it in for him. Which given the way DC folded, isn't exactly wrong. Plus as I understand from Mr. Presthus post-DC United, he commented "Rongen knew exactly the wrong thing to say at the wrong time."
Yeah, you're right. You are bringing back a horrible memory for me ... only slightly less horrible than watching Lassiter and Olsen hitting on chicks at the Hard Rock. In fact, I think after that game Sepp Blatter, who had been in attendance, announced that we had been the far better team but that our goalie cost us the game. Ouch.
Actually, you could make a strong argument he was better than McBride ever was. According to this article he's the all-time leading scorer for the USMNT and was Honda US Player of the Decade for the 90s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Wynalda He is from my generation and from being out there as a kid in soccer camps, knowing the competition out there, and knowing he came out as the leading scorer of the US team, I'm not just going to summarily dimiss this guy w/the grand/broad statement that he's an idiot unless I have good reason to do so, and I don't. Sure he f'ed up in the World Cup. But the whole team was f'ed from the start, if I remember right. And I've disagreed w/him before. He got on Donovan's case-I wouldn't have done that. Donovan could have done better but it was my opinion the lineup was sh!t (by World Cup standards) from the getgo. He thought the US would do well (how much I believe him I don't know)-I didn't. As for the 2 teams, my guess is the greatest DC team beats the current team, by a 2-1 score. But I don't know for sure-I know it'd be a competitive game.
Wynalda was really a great goalscorer. Too many of his MLS seasons just came after his prime. Not to mention he played for some seriously crappy Clash teams. I sat next to a man from Saarbrücken and his son at a bar before the US-Italy match in this World Cup and he really spoke glowingly about Wynalda, his abilities as a player and teammate, and how he woke the whole area up to the abilities of the American player.