Well in that case, my 2009 DCU team featuring the same defensive line as 2006, managed a penalty win over Santos in Japan and narrowly lost to Inter Milan in the Club World final 2-1 on a 87th minute winner. Does that help?
Let's not discount goalkeeping while we're evaluating defenses. It seems to me that in the early days, we had relatively weak goalkeepers. This year we've got Perkins, who has been an animal out there.
And that is why DC was never a very good GA team? Your comments don't make much sense. DC did not have great (team) defense until after these guys were gone. To be honest, Eddie Pope has never been a member of a particularly stingy defense in MLS. I like him, but there were only a few years in the league (mostly with DC) when injuries, plus call-ups, plus concentration/communication issues have not seen him make some pretty bad gaffes and be a central part of some pretty cruddy defenses. In the early years, DC outscored its opponents and played decent defense when it had to. But it was not a stellar, pure defensive team. The current team defense of DC United is much better. The entire team defends and they do more than that - they dominate possession. The early DC teams were better quick-striking attacking teams and with El Diablo scheming - they were better at breaking down opponents. But the team was not as fluid passing the ball from every position as it is now and the team definitely did not get the great defensive support from every player on the field that they do now. I think a case could be made that Namoff, Nelsen and Boswell are the best pure defenders that DC has ever had. And Erpen is not much further down the list. Plus, All of those guys would have slotted into DC's backline very well in the early years. Erpen would have looked magnificent - like a more athletic Lubos Kubik or something. He probably could have played well at left back in that system, if pressed into that role. Namoff would not be a bad right back coming up the field and is better defensively than the raw Sanneh was at that time. Boswell and Nelsen are more physical than Pope and nearly as assured. Llamosa was very clever but pretty slow, and I don't think that he has the pure talent that Boswell has. Boswell looks competent even when he is on the field with the best players in the world.
I am disappointed that you did not quit the game before saving and re-play it until Inter received their just desserts.
I've already done that. I wrote this way back: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352860&page=7 Well, I think: -We're going to get slammed by Italy and Czech. Have a chance to beat Ghana. Will not advance. -Did not select the best pool by any stretch. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm highly disappointed by the roster selection and proposed lineups. There's some guys that are locks-Donovan, Beasley, Keller, Lewis, and a few others.... But I look and the proposed lineups and I think we're gonna get slammed. I look at the lineups and think-is this world class? And I think, no, it isn't. Remember the last World Cup we overachieved and beat Portugal-we're not going to come in under the radar this time and surprise anyone. ..... I don't think Arena will last after this World Cup. It's clear he's played favorites, and that's going to be his ruin. My guess is it's back to MLS for Arena. I hope I'm wrong. .... I thought Bruce was masterful in the last World Cup, I think his ego maybe has gotten the best of him this time around.
Did I say that the '98 defense was had a better GAA than the current team? If so, please point out where. In my opinion the back line of Sanneh, Pope, Llamosa and Agoos were better than the current back line of Erpen, Boswell and Namoff. I also think that the '98 team is the best team we've ever had, in spite of the loss at MLS Cup. 2006 is second on my list right now, better than '97, '04, '96, and '99 (in that order). 1998 2006 1997 2004 1996 1999 If you don't think that makes sense, tough. I do. It's my opinion. Get it?
Nah, I only use that trick either when I lose unsaved games and have to replay matches (then saving and restarting until I get similar results up to the point that I lost the game) or when I get offered a new coaching job, so that I can check out the new team and go back if I change my mind. It's so hard to leave DCU behind, but hey, the money makes up for it! More on topic, I do think that team defense is better now, but I do not agree that any defense is better than the back four mentioned earlier. Aside from that if you look at the reserves of the 97/98 teams you will see quite a few very solid players fighting for time on the field. I'll take Ben Iroja over John Wilson 8 days a week. I think the overall balance of better (MLS overall) defense now, and better offense then, and the goalkeeping variables between both make it very difficult to make a good case for either being superior. Teams are more organized and deeper to the last man than they used to be, but there isn't a spike in offensive flair or skill like in the 90's.
Settle down. I said that for a pair of CDs who "shut down just about everything" DC gave up a lot of goals back then. shut down just about everything and more goals allowed than just about any 'modern' DC team just don't go together so well in my book. Sorry that you felt I was trodding all over your right to have your own opinion. I just thought you might want to find some more effective way of trying to justify it by giving you a little 'peer review'.
If the earlier back four was better, than it doesn't speak too highly for Richie Williams, John Harkes or the other guys on that squad. And as for Iroja - I don't think he would be a great player in a 3 man backline. Wilson is really a solid reserve left back in a 4 man backline. He has been pressed into service in a less natural role and has really been a great value all things considered. Not exactly Craig Zaidie out there. He is being more exposed than ever because Prideaux (who is better than I ever believed he would be) is hurt. I think that Eddie Pope was a great player in his own way. But we are going to look back on Bobby Boswell (ultimately) and Ryan Nelsen as better players ultimately. Ryan Nelsen was an EPL starting-caliber player when he was at DC (his last two seasons). Bobby Boswell is in his class - especially considering he is younger and has less experience at the position. I am still not sure that Eddie Pope ever had that in him. Though he was an imperious and majestic back by early MLS standards. Llamosa was very shrewd and wrung every bit of quality out of what talent he had. But I like Erpen's game more. It is not as tidy at times, but it is full of obvious talent and ability. But that is JUST my opinion. When you consider that there are only three of them playing back there and that Namoff/Prideaux and Erpen make major contributions in the attacking end (despite being part of a 3 man backline) - I give all credit to the boys of '04 - '06.
It's about playing style. Check out the stats of the 2 best Spainish teams, Barcelona and Real Madrid. Like DC United Barcelona is a possession-and-ball-movement team. Almost every year, they score the most goals in Spain. However, they also give up far more goals than their rival, Real Madrid. It's hard to play an attacking, positive possession style without giving up goals.
Bud. Bringing up your predictions has nothing to do with you asserting first.. Then... With what you wrote before your quote above you are saying that either a) the Nats players are all consumate brown nosers and/or b) are liers. Bringing up Beasley and Mathis as examples just shows how amazingly poor your reasoning is. You can't even bring up quotes that say that players are pissed off at Arena. Compare to the huge volume of material from the players pre, during, and post France98 with SS.
I disagree. You control possession, you don't allow other teams to get as many chances at goal. Arsenal (in their best years) did a great job denying other teams the ball and still came out with decent GA numbers (despite being a very attractive side). DC United is doing the same thing this season. There is not a better possession team in the league than DC United, and it is a prime reason why our GA is pretty low. Barca does not have an ideal balance between attacking/defense. But they manage pretty well nonetheless. Real Madrid is (and has been) definitely a possession-style, attacking-focused team that lacks muscle on the back line. Chelsea might be a better example of a more 'ruthlessly efficient' side if they did not also score a ton of goals. Same with Manchester United in their 'glory years'. I just don't think you can say 'attacking/flair/possession' is mutually exclusive with 'allowing few goals'. What you don't see in DC United now is guys like Etcheverry or past forwards who only played defense haphazardly.
Wrong about Pope. Flat-out wrong. Other stuff you wrote had some merit but you are not here. Well that and even hinting that "Prideaux ..... make(s) major contributions in the attacking end". lol
A couple thoughts: - Talley was the mainstay at right back for the stretch-run of the 1998 season, starting 16 of 18 of the final games (all competitions, according to MLSnet). - Sanneh did not play in the back for DC United, ever, in my recollection. He played wing midfield nearly all the time. In the second game of the Vasco series, he was a wide midfielder in a rare 3-5-2 lineup, which worked like a charm (Olsen being the other wide-middie)...though admittedly he did a lot of defending in the bunker that was the final 20 minutes. - A 4-man midfield of Harkes, Etch, Williams, and Sanneh was not exactly stellar on both sides of the ball. On a few occasions, they would play high pressure, but most of the time it was a matter of Williams chasing down somebody and hacking them before they closed in on the defense. - Garlick was a good goalie, but hardly an all-star quality performer. - Agoos and Llamosa could be absolutely burned for speed. So, people calling Boz slow should keep in mind that he could have out run either of those guys backwards. Pope was a good athlete, but that back line was all about anticipation and organization. - The 1998 team was the epitome of the saying, "best defense is a good offense." That was the best offensive team in league history, in my opinion. The defense was good, but I think their perceived contributions are being overplayed. This was a team that would spot you two easy goals just to make it interesting. Cheers, Tim
I could've sworn it was the other way around, with Sanneh more back and Talley more on the wing, until Sanneh was injured which gave the starting wing job to Olsen and moved Talley back to right back. Maybe I drank too much during 1998, but I still think that that team was the best ever to take the field, not just for DC United but for MLS.
Let's not let word definitions get in the way. I compare 98 to Barcelona, which is exactly the comparison I was looking for, not Real, because the style was similar- lots of possession, good ball movement, many players in the attack. This style scores many goals but also gives up goals. I'm repeating myself. Real Madrid is a far more practical-type organized formation, they just don't leave it so open in back. Maybe this year's DC is more like that, they are pretty organized and are rarely (by MLS standards) leave big holes. Back to the original point, goals against can't be used as an absolute measuring stick of defenses as differing styles can be expected to give up more or less goals.
With Prideaux I mean that he overlaps and does reasonably well passing the ball - not that he creates chances or finishes them. This season (early) especially he was doing a better job overlapping and keeping the ball moving. As far as Pope goes . . . I just don't know.
Those two in particular I don't remember speaking that highly of at the time or since. It was not a defensively strong midfield, IMO. I think the defense today benefits from the strength of the whole team and the lack of creativity in the league. Back then, they were left to defend as a line of 4 and one fiesty short guy in front. I agree completely with both of those statements. But I'd still take Iroja over Wilson for 4 back line or as a wide midfielder. He's just better. Period. Not taking anything away from Wilson, just holding Iroja up as better in both positions. I guess we can't be sure, but though I am pleased in one sense that Eddie decided to play his career in MLS, I am of the opinion that he could have moved to Europe and been every bit as successful as Boswell might ever be.