PM me for details. I know the person who was on the jumbo tron last night and I've asked him to make shirts for me, hopefully he will make more for all.
A few thoughts: 1) I don't hink we knew we were screwed from the beginning. Many (if not, most) thought we had a better chance this year than last at winning the Cup (we still could if we qualify, but that doesn't seem likely). Yes, we had a long road trip, but that was to be followed by a long homestand at a brand new park with lots of cheering fans. The road trip was not going to be so bad, with teams missing their best players to the WC. 2) The season *****may***** still end up being *worse* than 2004 if we fail to qualify for the MLS Cup, and fail to make the USOC final. For all that went wrong in 2004, we *almost* won the USOC, and we won a few international matches in the CCC. Making it past our first match in the USOC doesn't even seem likely. Compound that with the things that we had in our favor this year, and it will feel even worse than 2004. The one big difference between a horrible year in 2004 and a horrible year in 2006 is this: DO NOT EXPECT GUPPY OR DAVE OR ANYONE TO PUBLICLY APOLOGIZE FOR THE TEAM'S PERFORMANCE (as PW did.... the classiest thing ever done by a GM in MLS). Expect excuses as to how it was outside of their control. 3) As I remember, it wasn't a sure thing until the final weeks that we even qualified for the MLS Cup. Yes, we destroyed DCU 4-0, but that was after we played crap at home on the first leg. In addition, it has been pointed out already that Andy Herron's foot would have meant giving NE as well as us a bit more time to score again. The disallowed goal by it self was not going to get us to the Cup Final. 4) 2003 was basically a leftover team from Bob's days, the best players (or their talent) long since gone. Giving Dave total credit for 2003 is indeed a stretch. In sum, with all that has been stated about the team since 2003, I would say that the Fire have been overall mediocre at best. And I say that that is not a good thing. AEG's people who handle the Fire have to sit down and decide what they want the Fire to be: a cellar-dweller who provides a great stadium atmosphere for their large and loyal fanbase, a mediocre team that lets its fans have a sniff of the aroma if not a taste of success by qualifying for the MLS Cup playoffs every once-in-a-while (which will get harder as new teams join the league), a perennial challenger for every piece of hardware every year, or a team that is *expected* to win at least 1 piece (if not most) of hardware every year. If this season becomes as bad or even worse than 2004, we will have to see what changes if any are made, and we can decide for ourselves what AEG has going through its collective minds regarding what their plan for the Fire is.
There was just over 17,000 last night, probably just over half were Fire Fans. It could have been a sellout if we had an average attendance from Fire Fans, but we did'nt. A sellout might have inspired the players, I don't know, but I do know that Dave did'nt, and never will, inspire this team to victory.
HE DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO DIVE FOR THE FIRST GOAL!!! WHAT IN THE HELL CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE TALKING ABOUT? The first Chivas goal was well struck, from 19 yards out, and it crossed the goal line about 1 yard inside of the post to Zach's left. Maybe he was screened by the 3-4 players in front of him, maybe he wasn't. Regardless, the ball was savable. It did not hit the side netting, it had a slight curve on it that was bringing it back towards the center of the goal, and again, it crossed the goal line about 1 full yard inside of a post. That's a savable ball...it's at least a ball that any goalkeeper in any league in the world should at least TRY TO DIVE FOR! As for the second goal...at least he dove. I will give him that. But after that, there is the part about saving a PK that you dove early and correctly for. Thank goodness that he dove (for once), but part #2 of the process has to be actually making a save. He was there, he got his arms out, and he didn't come up with the play. Finally, I would like to ask you if you were getting a beer around the 20th-25th minute of the first half last night. If so, then I can understand how you didn't see Thornton take a back pass on his left foot, decide that he couldn't even try to kick the ball away with said left food, and instead, Thornton dribbled the ball over his own end line for a corner kick. Thornton was outside of his 6 yard box, and didn't even try to play the ball out to the east sideline, nor did he try to kick the ball off of the pressuring Chivas player. He simply turned turtle and took the ball over his own end line for a Chivas corner. That, my friend, was embarrassing to watch, and I was not alone in wondering out loud "what the hell was that?" Thornton made 1 key stop late in the first half, diving to his left. Very nice. The problem is that the rules of the game make for a 90 minute affair, and Thornton checked out for most of last night's game. As usual. I have never, ever been as upset with a Fire player as I was with Thornton last night. Therefore, I compelely disagree with your post.
Thornton was well off his line too many times, and almost got buirned at least once for it. Combined with is laziness and afore-mentioned insanity/stupidity, this match could easily have been 1 3-1 or 4-1 affair. Man, why is it every other team seems to have no problem replaciong a GK with a backup (even acquiring a backup from lower league teams --Burpo-- after the season starts), while we cling to a "fan favorite" who is past his prime? Oh, i forget... cuz we have Dave and not another coach who will take a "fan favorite" out and replace him with an up-and-comer. Ironic that that once happened with the Fire. Can you say Jorge Campos?
Actually, on the pass back to Zach, his intention initially was to dribble past the oncoming player, then he realized he could'nt, then he dribbled it out. I also thought, "what the hell was that?"
Before the season even started, people were already using the road trip as an excuse for a poor year. Others gave up on trophies because Dave was retained. Very few people were predicting silverware. To me, what would be worse than 2004 is a repeat of 2005 where we undeservedly make the play-offs and this is seen by Guppy as justification for retaining Dave another few years. I'd actually prefer we not make the play-offs if we don't deserve to and if it means no more Dave. At least then we could take solace in a possible improvement next year in exchange for no trophies now. First, 2005 was "horrible" only in that it let Dave stay another year. I certainly hope that people don't think I'm arguing that we've outright sucked under Dave in 2005. We didn't. We were not, say, the Crew who did suck. My complaint is that we were mediocre (ie. we played OK but no more than that) and we were mediocre despite having an above average roster. If the FO had denied Dave players he wanted and hired their own sucky players and stuck with them, I would not blame Dave. But this has been Dave's team and he bears the brunt - but not all!- of the blame. Just thought I'd repeat that point to head off the usual straw men. Second, I agree that all we'll get are excuses out of Guppy and Dave. Even sadder is that some people here will drink that Kool-Aid. To Dave's credit, he did bring on Damani Ralph and Logan Pause, both of whom contributed to the fantastic year so he does deserve a portion of credit for that year.
Well, Peter Wilt and I discussed this after the game and we both disagree with you from our vantage in Section 8. Our defensive line was disorganized all night and left Zach hanging out to dry time and time again. If Chivas had brought any kind of finishing in the first half, we'd have been down 0-2 by halftime, given our sad lack of offense (for which you can't blame Thornton either). Luckily, Zach kept us alive with some fine saves until our defense let Garcia just stand there at the top of the circle wide freaking open and score with what was a darn good shot near the corner of the net that Zach could not have stopped. The only rage I can throw Zach's way was when he almost got chipped by a wide-open Razov. That was dumb. Look, I think Zach has been bad all season and I'd love to see what Pickens can do. But I'm not going to let that blind me to his play last night. If you want to angry at anyone for our loss yesterday, be angry at our defensive line. They are the ones who let Chivas attackers walk in on Zach over and over again. They cost us two goals last night and by all rights should have cost us at least two more.
You misspelled "Dasan Robinson." One thing I noticed last night was that our defense, as well as our midfield, was giving Chivas way too much space with the ball, even at the edge of our defensive third. The only explanation I can come up with is that, with Tony Sanneh anchoring the backline for (I think) the first time this season, nobody had any instinctive notion of whether or not they had support if they went in for a challenge. So they sagged back. I love how we're so jaded at this point that we aren't screaming bloody murder over Tony Sanneh starting ahead of both CJ and Jimmy. I have a couple of worst-case scenario hunches on that move. Later, COZ
And again, he could have at least put the ball out of bounds on the east sideline. Or, if he was feeling lucky, tried to play it off the player for a goal kick. God bless it Zach Thornton is horrible.
Have no fear, I noticed that CJ wasn't in the plans for last night too. Jim Curtin, well, at least I can see the reason that would have been given for not including him in the lineup, but as far as I'm aware, CJ was a healthy scratch, correct? If that is correct, I'm with you on the worst-case scenarios. The only mention of CJ Brown came in the Daily Herald article and the reasoning given (3 games in 5 days) isn't what I'd call air tight.
Thank you LAFFINARSENAL. Could someone please explain the actual productive value that Justin Mapp brings to this team? What was quoted in the comments is a typical Mapp game. Justin has mastered the art of making really fast runs to nowhere for no good purpose. Then he eventually runs out of gas and needs to be subbed out. How many years of "Potential" should be tolerated before he is expected to become a steady productive player?
Our lack of offense last night was the same as it's been for this team for most of the past 3 years: too slow moving forward on offense, then things bog down, the Fire lose possession, and the other team looks to counter as quick as they can. It has always been DC's game plan against us, and it was clearly the game plan of Chivas last night too. And who could blame them? If I was coaching against 2 d-mids who are 33 years old and a center defender who's 35, I'd want to run on them too. I'd want to run them into the ground. It has been a consistent problem for this team for the past 3 seasons. The Fire are a team that can't create offense quickly, can't create offense in a "half court" setting, and can't play defense in transition. Expanding more on the "can't play defense in transition" comment, that's where our defensive line 's lack of organization fits into things. Some of it has to do with the fact that our defensive lines have been a revolving door of players, but some of it has to be due to teh fact that our midfield can't slow anyone down or buy any time for the back line. In the end though, it doesn't change one simple fact: No matter how disorganized your defense is, no matter how old and slow your field players are, and no matter how little your team scores for you, THE NUMBER 1 JOB OF A GOALKEEPER IS TO DIVE. You're just going to have to trust me on this one, as it appears to me that you've never played the position much, if at all, in your life. There is no such thing as being left out to dry when you don't dive for a shot. In fact, the only guarantee that I ever experienced in 25 years of goalkeeping was that the bench would become my new home if I didn't dive. Period. Being a goalkeeper that won't dive is like being a designated hitter that doesn't swing at pitches-- what the hell is the point of having you on the field? You say that Zach could not have stopped that...well, unless you have some sort of 3-D computer imaging program that applies laws of physics and geometry in such a way that it allows for you to project Thornton's diving body across the videotape of the goal from the vantage of Section 8 (where I was last night, by the way), then you don't really know if he could or could not have stopped that shot. You're just guessing. Eliminate the guesswork. Demand a goalkeeper that will stop being so damn lazy and dive for shots. Then, and only then, can we really address whether a shot "could not have been stopped". To paraphrase what I just typed above, there's plenty of blame to go around. I'd just like to get to the point where blame (and credit) can be placed with players as results of their efforts on the field. We're not in that position with our current starting goalkeeper right now, and that's beyond sad on many levels.
My favorite Mapp highlight from last night: Thornton gets the ball in the first half and throws a quick outlet to Mapp on the left flank, near the Fire bench. Mapp tears up the left side of the field, and Chivas back tracks at the same time. Thiago makes a run right down Broadway St., and Mapp has plenty of space to lead the ball in front of Thiago's feet near the D, but instead, Mapp talks himself out of making the pass. Mapp is soon thereafter dispossessed, and Chivas counters back towards Section 8. Really, if you didn't see it last night you missed out. It was quite breathtaking how Mapp managed to single-handedly kill a rare aggressive Fire counter attack, especially one that featured a player (Thiago) who actually anticipated a pass coming his way for once in his life.
I'm fairly convinced that anyone who thinks Zach Thorton is the problem with this team hasn't been paying enough attention. Has he been at his best this season? Certainly not. But NY/NJ is competing with an old and injured Meola and a well traveled career backup in Jon Conway, KC is competing with the enigmatic Bo Oshoniyi, and Columbus is only two points behind us despite trotting out a college coach and a couple of guys who had been out of the game before the Crew signed them. Our goalkeeping situation isn't a position of strength; but it shouldn't have to be. Our avaliable talent on the field should make us the #3 team in the East easily; especially when you consider the effect of WC callups and coaching uncertainty for KC and NY/NJ respectively. You want to rag on Zach Thorton? Thats fine. But I'm more curious to know why Dave can't win a ********ing game with the likes of Jaqua, Rolfe, Barrett, Herron, Guerrero, Mapp, Guitierez, Armas, Thiago, Segares, Brown, Sanneh, Curtin, and a would be rookie of the year candidate in Robinson. Thats the real problem, not a keeper who in today's MLS is simply average.
Did anyone notice the repetitive, chemistry-detroying, shape detroying, waste of energy known as, "the sarachan switch". Dave takes his two pointer fingers, then crosses them above his head while yelling at the players and distracting them. Then he moves players out of thier original positions, (so noone knows where anyone is) and puts a new left sided player on the right side. At one point Mapp was playing RB.
This young, quick, healthy active representative of the squad is into his fifth year of opportunity on being such a player. What is he 21-22 now? Oh sure... I say give him more... I'm sure he'll come into his own... Perhaps master the "run off the ball" maneuver that tends to "basically" yield productive play once in a while. In this time, I've really wanted him to do what he should... he hasn't.. And, well, after 5 years.. you'd think different strategical measures would have been made to fix such short comings... that's another "no-go". I'm tired of hearing how the team does better with Mapp on the pitch.. THIS TEAM????
Not really. I carefully noted that Razov was "wide open" and that's Dasan's fault. But Thornton had no business whatsoever being that far off his line at that time. Or, we recognized that we have no speed in the back and didn't want Chivas guys blowing past us if we stepped up. In that case, giving Chivas acres of space didn't work because our back line was still a sieve.
Not really. I carefully noted that Razov was "wide open" and that's Dasan's fault. But Thornton had no business whatsoever being that far off his line at that time. But keb was complaining about Zach, not Robinson so I only mentioned it in passim. Or, we recognized that we have no speed in the back and didn't want Chivas guys blowing past us if we stepped up. In that case, giving Chivas acres of space didn't work because our back line was still a sieve.
I'm also not a five star chef but I can tell when the food is too salty. So are you. OK, we'll go out and get a keeper who dives at everything for no practical reason just to make things look better for the fans. Yeah, that's smart. Face it, if it wasn't for Zach, we'd have lost 1-4. Dave aside, the defensive line is mostly to blame for for last night with our offense a close second. Thornton comes in a distant third. Period. No excuses. I agree with this and the rest of your post not quoted above.
I certainly remember this. I was out of my seat, thinking we would finally have a good opportunity on goal, and then I think it was Perez who stepped in easily to dispossess, and I thought, "what the hell?" while the Chivas fan behind me yelled, "LOSER!" Very frustrating.
What you missed that everyone else saw was after $anneh went down he threw his leg up and kicked at Ante, which is what actually caught him and made him go down. That is a penalty.
To be honest, it looked more like Sanneh got caught on the cutback with his leg out, and Razov deliberately initiated the contact and went down. Not unlike the Italy-Australia match in the WC, which puts it pretty squarely in a gray area, because yes, technically it's a foul, but I think it typically doesn't get called, which is why the Aussies were in such an uproar. It happened right in front of my seats, so I had a decent view. Also had a decent view of a deliberate handball from Razov a few minutes earlier which should have gotten him at least a yellow card. Later, COZ