1) Toni's production has generally been a product of an offense designed to get him a lot of goals, and works best against Serie A minnows - but if you want to disprove my argument, showing that he scored 31 goals this last year doesn't do it, logically. You'll have to show how 2 or 3 years ago, he was proving a superior player. But this is tangential to my point, since I never said McBride was better than Toni or Del Piero, but the other forwards of Italy. 2) There are different definitions of value, and you're using semantics and circular logic to avoid addressing my actual argument. 3) It is true - it's obviously true. If you don't think Americans are disliked, in both the soccer and political world, you should move to Europe and live there yourself - even before 9/11, when I lived in Europe, it was clearly true. If it wasn't true, it would make soccer managers all terrible businessmen. To the DEGREE it is true, it is up for debate, and certainly some BigSoccer posters say its way too big of a deal, is a debate. But even if it's true just a little, it could have a major effect on the value of a player whose skillset is good but not world class, and thus is simply replaceable by a large enough player pool as to have a somewhat competitive, nonmonopoly market. The economic theory here is pretty basic. If you were EPL Team X, and you could choose between two players, one that was American and one that was English, and you wanted to be able to sell so many tickets at a Y dollars, you'd have to be able to sign the American player for at least a discount of the difference in tickets times the ticket price in order to make that a good deal. 4) This is a nonresponse. If you don't care about valuation, that's your own priority. But if you use it to make a second point, then its susceptable to serious and significant flaws, especcially since its the only basis for making your point. I stick to my original point - We have no Essian, but we're better than Ghana, whereas you said Ghana was more talented "and its not even close" - one Essian cannot beat 11 decent players unless Essian is playing with decent players as well.
Good ole' classic Roehl. Claiming that 'everyone's against him' when his argument has holes larger than the Grand Canyon, then proceeding to stick his fingers in his ears and holler "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!" whenever anyone dares to challenge it, then blatantly ignoring points he has no answers to. He never even had any intention of this being a real 'passionate on-topic discourse'. So be it. Adios! Please don't start another. I see your point but disagree with the part about MLS. The players in MLS that are clearly a cut above the competition in th league are the ones that can coast. But some of the players in the league are really pretty mediocre IMO, and won't always give some of the very best players in the league... those players that are far and a way a few steps ahead of the competition... any real sustained challenge. For some of the younger players, they get into the league and they do, to an extent, play catch-up as they train with MLS veterans and play agianst MLS oppositoin - I don't think they're really coasting at that level. But when they have the abilities of a Donovan, etc. then they really can coast, there might not be as 'noticeable' a repurcussion for it in the league (losing their spot, etc.) and maybe complacency settles in. But you're dead on though IMO regarding the players and their choices, and those that may/may not respond well to different kinds of pressure. It's that type of pressure that can separate some of the great players from the role players, or the players that aren't cut out to be in the business. The first thing I thought of with the USA team, heading into the World Cup, was that the mentallity really wasn't there for them. It was actually a little strange - it was almost like a false sense of security to me... there wasn't this sort of pumped up, ready to "go get it done because we can" attitude with them. With confidence in athletes, I do think that a lot of it depends on the attitudes of the individuals and the players, and it's hard to say that the choices they make and the types of 'pressure' they feel they can succeed in doesn't have an impact on the type of player that they will become.
True, but then having a sample of 64 rosters should even that out to the point where a pretty clear looking curve appears. It does. Like you say, there's plenty of good 29 and 30 year old defenders at the cup. Just because a player reaches his peak, that doesn't mean he becomes a lot worse soon thereafter. And of course for individual players there can be differences in how this workout. A very steep decline like say clint Mathis, or a very slow or even no decline like a Brian McBride. But if we're talking strictly player development as a _general_ concept, then I think these types of generalities do hold. I think when people see Lee Nguyen at PSV and hope that they're going to turn him into Pavel Nedved, I think they're overestimating what PSV can do for him. Even assuming he has the natural ability to be that kind of player (who knows), the eleven years before PSV got their hands on him as far as development is concerned are as important as the eleven years after. And if we draw fairly safe assumptions about how skills develop, it's likely those 11 years were _more_ important. I just think it's foolish to believe that when 20 or 21 year old players head over to Europe, that there's any reason to expect huge improvements by leaps and bounds.
Now that's funny! You should put a [Ironic] tag in front of this Topic title. Just one example on how MLS is GOOD ENOUGH for a player carreer: POPE.
+1 ANY US player who thinks he deserve a spot in the US Nats starting 11 should be playing in a high league. Brasil players are playing in Europe because their championship is of a lower quality, so don't start with MLS.
Actually, I believe most Brasil players go to Europe to get rich. There have always been a cadre of Brasilians who had the attitude of Landon Donovan. Now the dropoff in play isn't as great to the Brazilian league, but that attitude is present.
It's a combination of reasons. Brazilian players go to Europe for the money, for the challenge, for the prestige and for the life-style. Some say Money can be a bad thing but many players use it as a motivation, to get to that level where they can command the salaries they have to first prove they are worthy of the investment at some point. The Brazilian leagues aren't bad at all - they do need a bit of revamping and clean-up IMO with the cynical fouls and occasional chaos, but they're good - I'd have no problem with my son joining the academy for SPFC if he were serious about the sport. It's not all backwards and half-assed. For the attitude, you're right, there are Brazilians who've had his attitude before. Loads. One that immediately springs to mind is Wagner Love. Went to Russia, hated it, complained about the weather and went back to Brasil. Then again, he was never realy looked to as the 'pillar' of Brazilian football. Others have had bad spells... Gustavo Nery's was so bad in Portugal and Germany that he lost his spot on the Selecao as Roberto Carlos' backup to the impressive Gilberto... who many think should start over Roberto Carlos. The list goes on and on and on... but maybe the most important factor in all of this is that for some on the Selecao, it's more complicated than it is for Donovan. More is at stake because there's more competition and the sport's so rooted in the culture. Landon Donovan had a bit of a more comfortable choice than them, depending on goals. When he returned to his country, he was returning to sunny California, making money, and with the promise of being the "golden boy" of Soccer in America. Different than a player of his same ability, but is Brazilian, returning to Brasil and making money but being just another decent/good Brazilian player. Different countries, different situations, different perspectives. And I think this does tend to shape some players.
Shockingly, you may find that guys like Reyna, Keller, Lewis, et. al. went to Europe to make a better living rather than just to prepare for U.S. games. Dempsey makes like $80k in the MLS? Might make $150-$200k on his next contract vs. potentially much more in Europe? These guys have maybe 12 years to maximize their income. Keller, Friedel and Reyna are basically set for retirement because they took the leap. The only one making that kind of money in the U.S. is LD.
I saw Convey beat an Italy defender on the wing, in the Italian third, with creativity rather than just pure speed. That play was symbolic of the fact that Convey is no longer potential, but right now. The U.S. attack was so anemic in the past. It was exciting to see Beasley break through that in 2002, even though much of it was speed. Convey showed the next level. Of course, I think Dempsey also showed that level of skill. I think the benefit of the club game in Europe is the constant intensity of matches, even in second-flight leagues, the experience of a season as a campaing involving 3-4 simultaneous competitions which create several two-game weeks. At least that experience would cut the chances of a top national team player having trouble "tuning in."
See also, if not moreso, Argentines. This is less about attitude and more about missing home. It is about weather, general culture, missing friends and family, and food, etc. I've often read about the collection of Argentines on a particular Euro club team organizing barbecues and parties to feel more at home. I'm from Donovan's hometown/right next door, and I've been hearing about his homesickness since 97. It's partly a California thing. People don't realize how unique it is here until they live somewhere else. You can find this opinion at universities, where professors in some fields say the national prestige and alumni networks of California schools suffer because the students don't leave California.
Simple fact, show US players that you can make really good money playing soccer, and we won't need to send them overseas. I like to send players to Europe so that they can learn against other styles, so that when world cup time comes around they won't be surprised.
Yes, after 150 minutes of soccer, you can tell that Europe hasn't improved his game. No wonder you lost your race for city council so badly. You say stupid things.
I think you have to factor in Reohl's "issues" with Europe in general, and with the thread as a whole, take into account his refusal to accept that "just winning seven games" is easier said than done.
A lot of players had expressed their dislike for Russia and Ukraine (Wagner Love, Maniche, Costinha, Aghahowa) despite very fat paychecks. But Leverkusen/Köln ain't Moscow, Kiev or Donetsk.
The sad part is that MLS directives have been paying mediocre foreign players MILLIONS OF DOLLARS while our younger more talented are force to leave and look for the buck....
USA players outplayed.....? Honestly... I need to go with "our coach was outcoached...." USA team drag the Italians and they are almost the champions now....
So, do you believe the US players played well? You believe they outplayed teams, but lost because of poor coaching decisions? True, we drew the Italians, and they're playing for the championship. But we also got smacked around by the Czechs, and they went out in the first round. Even if you don't want to accept the pk goal v ghana (which, officially, counts) we only actually scored one goal. People were in positions to score more than that, they just didn't have the quality to put their shots away. But it's all down to coaching? Surely Arena shoulders some blame here, but our players were not dragged down by their coach. they were all bottom dwellers.
Do you really think the boys are dumb.....Just picture yourself before the game with Czech Republic in the locker listening at Bruce and his not so new experimental line up.....Beasley on the right....They knew the game was lost because that lineup was used in Costa Rica and Mexico City and it did not work..... The whole world soccer press was talking about it.....Why he did not run things the way he did in Korea?? we had a better team!! why.....? Bruce Arena was in charge of selecting and preparing his players for a world cup and his work was poor from the beginning a 3 week preparation ? gimme a break.....
We came out in a 4-5-1 (that could have been a 4-4-2 (or 1-1) if LD was actually a striker, which he might have been, rather than an AM) and had problems in midfield against the Czechs. so the solution was to remove a midfield, dedicate another striker, remove Convey from the field for DMB on the left and throw Dempsey, everyone's answer of the day on the right? That moves LD clearly into the midfield, so Reyna sits? Or Mastro? Reyna hardly gives the midfield the steel it needed, esp if a very soft LD is playing. a straight 4-4-2 would have been a mistake against the Czechs, their midfield would have completely overrun us. As it was, our midfield did a good job of maintaining possession. so what was missing? Exactly what was missing from the US team/pool/talent base: people who can score at this level. IMO, we're decent (not a top side, but a good enough side) in the back and middle, but we clearly lack up top. That's why we lost. The best manager on Earth wasn't getting goals out of this group, and we knew it going in.
The best manager on Earth is in the final ... what he might have done with the US, one will never know. However, I assume he would have put players in their best positions to succeed, (which places Landon on top of Bianca in Manhattan Beach) had his game plan refect the talent of his players and have a proper evaluation of the competing talents on the pitch. Let me elaborate on the last one - it's easy to say, "well, our plan was to take it to the Czechs" but if the means of accomplishing such lofty goals is to have DaMarcus Beasley dominate Pavel Nedved, then the head coach needs to have his head examined. As to the US talent, I'd be a bit more kind than Matthew and say that it was at the stages where the older vets were a bit too much over the hill, the younger vets were still improving and some of the question marks were answered negatively though not surprisingly so. Even if the group was tough - and it was relatively so - the Czechs were missing their top three strikers (Smicer was out of the Cup entirely while Koller and Baros went about a half each) and Ghana, despite having several well respected Euro based players, also had members plying their trade in places like Serbia, Israel and Denmark. In my opinion, the last game was winnable and, with that, the qualification into the next round was a done deal.
The MLS players in the final are doing much better than the US Euro players did ... Complete, total clap trap. The reality is most of our players: McBride, DMB, Convey, Lewis etc. are MLS/Euro mutts. Even LD could be put in this group, but is more rightly a "pure" MLS Who were better, the "pure" MLS: Dempsey, Pablo, Pope, EJ, LD or the "pure" Euros: Reyna, O'Brien, Gooch, Dolo? Fact is, not a singly USMNT player played "above" expectations. I think it's hard to argue any even played "up to" expectations. Pablo was not good and took a really unfortunate card. Reyna was not good for much of the tournament and gave the ball away badly. Pope got toasted by Koller, Gooch gave up a poor PK. the MLS v. Euro debate is worthless. We are an uneven team that played unevenly. We couldn't beat England with a majority MLS team at home, couldn't beat Holland with a mix in Europe and couldn't win a WC game, no matter where the players played.
In the same game they performed according to the expectations of their MLS contingent. Save some games v. Mexico and CR the US has CONSISTENTLY underperformed expectations, save Portugal, Italy and SK and a few odd results over the years. We HAVE NOT played well against top-teams with any consistency since 96, despite having a league of our own. Just how it am, sam.
We don't play well against top teams except when we do? I don't follow the argument. If anybody thought starting MLS was going to rocket the US up to the level of England, Italy, Brazil, etc they were living in dream land. I don't think you can get around it: our players who have gone to Europe have not, as a group, shown any marked improvment.