What's the Importance of a Formation?

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by ursula, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    With Erpen and Boswell both starting, it looks like we'll be debating for awhile at least a) what formation DCU is playing and b) if that's optimal. We fans are so used to Nowak's fairly rigid 352 that we're not sure what to think (collectively) about the changes even while Nowak says over and over, "the formation isn't so important" (or words to that effect).

    So what's happening? Pretend it's Sunday afternoon and we're seeing the game start. Who's where?

    (For those of us in TV-land, there is an extra problem. No doubt the announcers will tell us the formation, but as followers of Arena's Nats should know (but usually don't it seems by thye reaction on BS) the formation that the team lines up in is often not what the announcers were told.)

    At this point we fans need to drop our conceptions of what the players do, for example thinking Gros is a midfielder, and look at where the players start when United starts a possession with Perkins.

    Why? Because the most important thing about knowing a formation is where the players start from rather where they go to as the play develops.

    A couple of examples:

    - Do the players who take wide defensive positions move way forward from time to time or do they stay back?

    - How many players stay far forward? 2? 1? 3?

    I know what I'm writing sounds very simplistic but I find posters on BS constantly getting confused about the formation and then debating it to death.


    Back to DCU. Under Nowak we the past has been about the 352. Last year it looked (omitting the GK):

    --Namoff---Bospen---Prideaux
    -------------Carroll
    Gros--------Olsen-----Kovalenko
    -------------Gomez
    -------Moreno----Player X

    Now shift Gros back two lines, shift Olsen back, one, and shift Dema forward 1 or 2 lines and you get (using the healthy players now and leaving Tino and a suspended Gomez aside):

    Gros--Erpen--Boswell--Prideaux
    --------Olsen------Carroll
    --------Gomez------------Adu
    -----Moreno-----Filoeskanalker

    Sort of a box 442, especially if the fullbacks (Gros and Prideaux) go forward. Now tweak it a bit more:

    Gros--Erpen--Boswell--Prideaux
    --------Olsen------Carroll
    --------------Gomez
    --Moreno-----Filoeskanalker--Adu

    A 433!

    Basically with the same players the team can shift formations. Since all of the players (except Filomeno) have been with Nowak long enough they should be developing an awareness of this kind of shifting. So I guess I am saying that the formation they start in isn't so important because Nowak is being less rigid than in the past.

    Ultimately I see the need to play both Boswell and Erpen together will make the formation less rigid. Often we will see those two further back that everyone else as the fullbacks move forward, creating all sorts of odd looks (like a 2-3-3-2 etc).

    Now back to Tino and the forward line. Both Boswell and erpen the team can easily add. Tino playingh a lot withh no injuries to our forward players makes for a more radical shift. Two things here:

    1) Tino will get playing time including a lot of starters minutes and

    2) The Filomeno/Eskandarian/Walker striker position is, well, at this point, not exactly the "point of the spear" to use a Hudsonism.

    So where will Tino play? Who sits eventually? Will Nowak eventually start Moreno, Adu, and Quaranta in a 433? Will Nowak try to get Tino and/or Adu to play more defense 50 yards away from goal? To me this is the most important question in the lineup and formation for the season, as long as Gomez, Adu, Moreno, and Quaranta all stay healthy.Nowak seems commityted to getting his best 11 players on the field at once. Having both Boswell and Erpen start shows that. He's also showing that he's gonna start Adu too. But since Tino's been hurt, we haven't seen him fit in him as well.
     
  2. DutchFootballRulez

    Jul 15, 2003
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well if I'm pretending its Sunday afternoon, then Gomez should be in the Barra banging a drum...leading a "Spit Out that Red Crap" song/chant..
     
  3. QuietSide

    QuietSide Member

    Oct 18, 2002
    I think the better way to look at it is what are each player's responsibilities - I think this is how the coaches look at it and what they mean when they talk about the fact that formation isn't that important. What's important is player's responsibilities on both offense and defense.

    On offense, I don't think a whole lot has changed. We're still going to look for Gomez and Moreno to be the primary creators and the goals to come largely though the middle and not via the play down the sides.

    The big difference in this "new alignment" is on defense and I see Nowak tweaking the entire defenseive alignment in an effort to either a) get Adu on the field b) get both Erpen and Boswell on the field or c) both.

    Let's assume it's both.

    If Nowak stayed with his traditional 3-5-2 and played Erpen as the right fullback and Freddy as the left midfielder he has a problem in that Erpen is in a position that he's not great at and Freddy doesn't have the defensive skills to play the winger in the 3-5-2.

    So what does he do?

    He assings responsibilities on the field so that Freddy doesn't have to play too much defense and Erpen isn't really alone out on the right and the results is that everything looks skewed on paper.

    What I think you'll see happen is this:

    Freddy is backed up by a stay at home defender in either Prideaux or Namoff and thus won't be tracking too far back on defense. Put another way, he will not be tracking from the 18 to the 18 like a traditional winger might.

    On the other side of the field, Gros will be tracking endline to endline and will have defensive responsibility all the way back - much more so than Adu. As he goes forward the cover will come from Erpen sliding out and Olsen being ready to help

    On paper at least, this could potentially be the best use of the available personnel.

    Boswell is the sweeper.
    Erpen helps out in the middle and over on the right side.
    Pridueax/Namoff (neither of whom are very good going forward) stay at home on the left and protect Adu and limit his need to track back as far.
    Gros runs all day long up and down the right sideline.
    Olsen helps out in the middle while helping relieve some pressure on Gros.
    Carroll plays the role of the destroyer.
    Freddy pushes forward from the left.
    Gomez creates.
    Jaime creates.
    Filomeno poaches.

    Esky and Walker are alternatives to Filomeno.
    Tino is an altnerative for either Freddy or Jaime.

    The linchpin is Gros. If he can't cover the terrority this whole alignment will fall apart... And who subs for him in the 70th minute when he's exhausted. Apparently Moose or Dynchenko have the same kind of stamina and such that they are probably the fill ins on that side, but do they have the experience to cover that much terrority?

    Anyway, just my two cents. It's definitely going to be interesting to watch.

    And in the end I really don't care as long as they win. :)
     
  4. dcuinvermont

    dcuinvermont Member

    Sep 8, 2000
    Burlington VT
    The fact that Nowak is considering changing the formation, even nominally, is to me a good sign of his development as a coach. After the first year other teams had a strategy for dealing with our big midfield. NOw we at least have the possibility of having a system that can, at times, focus more on defense when its needed. He's of couse going to say that the formation is not important, but putting two good players on the field that he thought were replacing the same position is a good sign that he'll let the formation be a combination of the type of players on the field, and what the coach tells them to do. Hopefully, fewer square pegs in round holes.
     
  5. nobletea

    nobletea Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 29, 2004
    HarCo
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let's leave last year in the past-- maybe he should be singing a different tune this year.... ;)
     
  6. BudWiser

    BudWiser New Member

    Jul 17, 2000
    Falls Church, VA
    I'll say this again, and y'all can not believe me or whatever, but Nowak doesn't care for static formations

    I asked him twice and both times he said it doesn't matter, it matters where the players are what they're doing in the framework of the team and opposition and what effort they're putting forward

    But I digress...carry on if y'all so desire
     
  7. DutchFootballRulez

    Jul 15, 2003
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Spit out the Taurine.." is a good idea for a Gomez-lead song/chant..
     
  8. Sanguine

    Sanguine Member

    Jul 4, 2003
    Reston, VA
    This is essentially how I've thought about things for a while, and it could also be said that we've been playing more or less a 3-4-3 since Gomez joined the team.

    --- Def - Def - Def
    WB --- CM - CM --- WB
    ----------Cam
    ------ Fwd - Fwd

    It especially began to resemble 3-4-3 when defending and Gomez would push up and become the point of the wedge up front.

    With Gros and Dema on the flanks, it also resembled a 5-3-2 at times. With this in mind, it's important to remember that a switch to a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 could come at a significant cost to our defense, despite the lineup card showing an extra defender on the field. This will require an adjustment by Olsen and Carroll to be more cognizant of covering for our fullbacks when they go forward. I'm sure they're capable of it, but the adjustment to a different system will take time, and we'll probably give up some goals due to players being out of position.

    I've also posted on these boards a few times that while a formation is determined by the coach, the posture of that formation is determined by the players. This in particular is why I think the 3-5-2, if we do decide to use it, will be a very problematic formation for us this year if Quaranta and Adu are to spend a lot of time on the wings. Their presence outside in a 4-3-3 (and to a lesser degree a 4-4-2) isn't as much of an issue, but still could be if our Fullbacks (which I would list as Namoff, Gros and Wilson, with Prideaux and Stokes as tweener defenders) are not up to the task.

    I hope that if Nowak does decide to make the switch, he sticks with it for at least a few months to work out the kinks if things don't go as well as hoped.
     
  9. highlander

    highlander Member

    Nov 9, 2002
    Springfield, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think what Nowak is saying contradicts what Ursula is saying. Both are alluding to the fact that in soccer you have roles on the pitch rather than positions. They have a very different way of saying it, but that was the message that I got from both.

    Regardless, I think that both Boswell and Erpen can be serviceable players in the middle over the long haul with each others support, but not alone.
     
  10. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    The success of this hybrid formation (it's a 442, no what, it's a 433, no, it's actually a 352) will be contingent upon two factors:

    1. How intelligent will Adu and Gros be? These two players will be asked to play in hybrid roles (not quite an outside left mid, not quite a right back). They will have to read the game intelligently and know when to pick their spots and adjust. I think all of us would have to admit that the jury's still out on that.

    2. Will Nowak adjust to the opposition or will Nowak force the opposition to adjust? Let me explain, NE fields a 352 to try and congest the midfield. Does Nowak then tell Adu to push up and become part of a 3-man frontline as a way of allowing more direct play (and punishing a team for robbing their backline in order to stack the midfield)? Or does Nowak tell Adu to drop back and Gros to push forward so we can match up to their 352? I suspect it will be mostly forcing the opposition to adjust rather than use adjusting to the opposition.
     
  11. vivzig

    vivzig New Member

    Oct 4, 2004
    The OC
    FYP. :D
     
  12. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like pretty much everything here except Carroll as destroyer--I don't think he's that kind of D-Mid. He's more of a ball-winner who reads the other teams offense, breaks up plays, etc. If you're counting on him to be the hard man in front of the back line, I'm not sure if that's the best use of his talents.

    Other than that, though, I like what you've got here.
     
  13. Red&Black

    Red&Black Member+

    Aug 30, 2001
    Lot 8
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Burkina Faso
    he said the same thing last night at the Barra happy hour.
     
  14. thecheat48

    thecheat48 New Member

    Jun 16, 2005
    Washington, DC
    I agree with the assessment that many of yall have made about the importance of Gros and Adu knowing their roles and executing well.

    I also think that Olsen will be asked to do a lot, as he normally does, by playing centrally but also playing out right up the wing or back on D, helping cover for Gros. When I saw him play against Japan for the MNT out in SF, he actaully played right back and looked pretty good.

    As for Tino, I'm not sure where he fits. I've thought for a while now that he is a better withdrawn forward then winger, so he is behind Jaime. But he really should be getting more PT if he is healthy. We'll see.
     
  15. BudWiser

    BudWiser New Member

    Jul 17, 2000
    Falls Church, VA
    Exactly. You can talk about the advantages of the 3-5-2, 4-4-2, box or whatever, but you suggest it to Coach Nowak and he's flat out not interested.

    I remember asking him who'll play a-mid since Etcheverry's gone and he said it doesn't matter who plays a-mid.

    This is from the actual coach folks.
     
  16. roadkit

    roadkit Greetings from the Fringe of Obscurity

    Jul 2, 2003
    Fornax Cluster
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree - I think he had to be honest and look at the players he had and decide that we could hold our own with a 4 man midfield, but that 3-man back line was going to be tough - now we can have both Erpen and Boswell playing to strength, which should give the r/l backs some freedom to cover for the wings.

    I think this is a good development.
     
  17. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    Budwise, I believe his exact quote was "Formation? We don't need no stinking formation!"
     
  18. Yeah, I have heard him say something similar. I just don't entirely agree with him.

    Thing is, one can overestimate the importance of formations, tactics or whatever. But certain things do matter.

    For example, if you choose to go with a system (lets call it 3-5-2) where you have three out and out defenders, and five midfielders, there is a significant difference between what that setup demands of the players on the pitch versus having four defenders and four in the midfield (lets call that 4-4-2). If you play with three defenders that puts more defensive responsibilities on your wide players to protect attacks down the wings. This means that certain types of players (eg Adu, Quaranta) who might work very well as wingers in front of a four man defense are not really going to fit into a system with three full time defenders. Conversely, if you have a four man defence you need players with certain skills as full backs, plus your choice of midfielders might be affected by the fact that you are going to need two central mids who can at least play some defensive role. So you can't just wave your hands and say, oh it doesn't really matter what formation we play, because it does matter, even if it doesn't matter quite as much as some BS posters might think.

    Sometimes I get the impression Nowak isn't really that interested in tactics particularly, he just has his 'system' which is primarily based around team play, motivation and all-team defence. Nothing wrong with any of those things but sometimes he is guilty of tactical naivety IMHO. For example, Chicago had our number twice in the playoffs, they realized we had no threat on the flanks to speak of and that if they could shut down Moreno and Gomez there was nothing we could really do to threaten them. Nowak's reaction to that was just to say we didn't take that match seriously enough. Maybe we didn't but the real reason we lost was because we were too slow and predictable and had no width. Ok, that has to do with personnel as well as tactics, but still. I have a lot of respect for Nowak but I wonders sometimes if he isn't a little too one-dimensional as a manager.
     
  19. vivzig

    vivzig New Member

    Oct 4, 2004
    The OC
    Let me know when that happens. :rolleyes:
     
  20. John L

    John L Member+

    Sep 20, 2003
    Alexandria, VA
    Yes - It seems our best 3-5-2 Wings were Stewart and Dema - They were the only ones who could both defend on the Wings and go up and be a bona fide Offensive threat - This would keep the other teams Defense wide and keep things open for Gomez in the Center - Gros was OK and could be a force on Offense, but with the departure of Dema there weren't any true Wingers meant for a 3-5-2 - Any 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 will allow more creative Halfbacks in the field for us - And be solid in the back as well

    OTOH - Regardless of formation you need versatile players who can shift from one area to another during the run of play - Good points made at the beginning of this thread
     
  21. BudWiser

    BudWiser New Member

    Jul 17, 2000
    Falls Church, VA
    He is anything but one-dimensional.

    Again, as people have noticed, DC does go to a 4-back system during the game depending on the situation.

    I emphasized the word static. He doesn't like set lineups. He likes his players to notice where they're on the field in the formation, make decisions on where they need to be, and put 110% effort on the field. I kind of see it as more like an amoeba, changing shape depending on how and where the flow of the game is.

    Know what I mean?! It's much, much more advanced than "we need to play 4 in the back". Try telling him that, and you'll quickly realize he captained the Polish National team, Poland's player of the year, captained the Fire to a MLS Cup, was in the Bundesliga, and played perhaps the most difficult position on the field (center midfield) for a reason...he knows a hell of a lot more than "we need to have 4 in the back". JMO

    http://dcunited.mlsnet.com/MLS/players/bio.jsp?team=dcu&player=nowak_peter
     

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