Burton Albion v United, FA Cup 3rd Round, Jan 8th [R]

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Achtung, Jan 6, 2006.

  1. Miles Brasher

    Miles Brasher Member

    Sep 6, 2004
    Coventry,England
    I also think your view is wrong. Any of the big Premiership sides would do exceedingly well in the lower leagues. Over the length of a season you would expect any of them to top the league easily.
     
  2. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    Hrm, I would expect teams like Chelsea, Bolton etc to do well. Not Arsenal or even ourselves. Robust teams who are...adept at playing long ball would do just fine, imo of course. You also have to be able to handle yourself....
     
  3. Vermont Red

    Vermont Red Member

    Jun 10, 2003
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can we all just agree that Burton would be a solid, mid-table team in the Prem, with an outstanding home record and a questionable away record, and get back to the real problem with the United team this weekend: no Fletcher.
     
  4. StrikerCW

    StrikerCW Member

    Jul 10, 2001
    Perth, WA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :D :eek: :rolleyes:

    Nonetheless, this banter about style of play etc. has taught me alot of different slang terms used by Brits in football. Good vocabulary expanding experience. Wizard-like, heart and thunder, monolithic hackers.
     
  5. Miles Brasher

    Miles Brasher Member

    Sep 6, 2004
    Coventry,England
    Sorry, but you're just wrong on this point. Watch more lower league football...
     
  6. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Sure it was an upset. But teams (Chelsea somewhat notwithstanding) do not run the table in the first division. And Liverpool losing a match to a first division side in a cup final is hardly as embarrassing, viewed dispassionately, as Manchester United getting all they can handle from a semi-professional club. The match against Wimbledon was one for the ages. There were tons of contraversial plays in the game, missed penalties, etc. This can happen on any given day.

    The big difference is that Wimbledon had already proven something by virtue of their playing in First Division at the time and having made it to the stinking FA CUP FINAL in front of 98,000 spectators at Wembley. It was not exactly the 3rd Round of the tournament.

    I would wager that many of these guys see some pretty terrible pitches when they are playing on loan for lower division sides and when they are playing Reserve team matches. It is not like Manchester Untied's players emerge from cryogenic/sterile pods to play only in optimum conditions before returning to their pods immediately after the game. Heck, even playing all over Europe in qualifying round matches gives them experience with lousy, lumpy pitches.

    And like I said, semi-pro players are not robots with terrific aerobic conditioning like many of Manchester Untied's players. After 60 minutes of playing in a mud-pit, I bet a lot of the Burton Albion guys were tugging at their shorts and trying to catch their breath. Smaller pitch notwithstanding, it is hard for me to believe that Man United was not sophisticated enough to react to Burton Albion by playing some delayed counterattacks or play some probing long-balls of their own (to space) and unbalance a tiring, adrenaline-fueled side of guys who were probably at the limits of their endurance.

    I am talking about first division Brazilian football where you have teams with orders-of-magnitude different salary lists playing in the same competition - or college soccer where you have orders-of-magnitude differences in soccer technique on the same pitch on a regular basis. Hard-men and long-ball/uncouth teams rarely triumph over the skilled teams over the course of 90 minutes. Even with spotty refs, hostile venues and inevitable injuries to top players.

    If teams are able to play so ruggedly in EPL, then how does J A Reyes survive in the league? I thought that Premier League teams were composed of flyweight wizards whose feet never touched the ground, even as they are completely unsuited for heading a ball in the air? And yet now you tell me that compared to UEFA matches the games are robust - almost philistine?

    Methinks you are protesting too much. There are plenty of games played in Europe that have some scandalous tackling and robust play (just watch plenty of matches that feature teams from the former Soviet Union in Winter). And there are plenty of games in the Premier League where tiny, flair players get stuck-in and show plenty of resolve against much bigger opponents.

    The performance of a couple players in our side (Sissoko, Hyppia and Gerrard to a lesser degree in the first half) was dismal. But to say that we were beaten over 90 minutes is ridiculous. After all, Cisse missed the penalty that would have given us 6 goals against a CHAMPIONSHIP (i.e. second-division) team that is on the rise. Luton Town was an extremely well-motivated and well-prepared team with some very good players. Some of Liverpool's players (esp Hyppia) were not ready for the game and it showed. As a team, Liverpool responded to the challenge and our players dominated the affair in a wide-open second-half.

    The tie last season against Burnley was a much-worse performance by Pool, albeit a much less-experienced Liverpool side. But even then, Burnley were a championship side. Not a bunch of semi-pro lorry-drivers.

    If you are unwilling to recognize that playing a non-league opponent is hard to compare apples to apples to a poor performance against a CCC-level side, then I don't know how we can have a satisfactory conclusion to this discussion.

    In order of scandalousness - I rate relative performances this way:

    + Middlesbrough 1 - 1 versus Nuneaton (sickening)
    + Manchester United 0 - 0 versus Burton Albion (only slightly less cringe-inducing)
    . . .
    . . .
    + Leyton Orient 2 - 1 versus home-field Fulham (embarrassing)
    + Tottenham 2 - 3 against home-field Leicester City (disappointing)
    + Liverpool loss to Wimbledon in FA Cup Final (definite upset - a huge surprise at that - against an opponent in the same division)
    + Liverpool 3 - 5 against home-field Luton Town (exciting, somewhat of an anomoly i.e. the miserable play of Hyppia and other normally consistent players)

    I would slot the tie that Liverpool lost last season in FA Cup between Man U versus Burton Albion and Leyton Orient beating Fulham. Just below where I would slot your performance against Exeter.

    I don't think that is unreasonable in the slightest.
     
  7. Invincible

    Invincible Member+

    Mar 28, 2004
    Sanctuary
    I think what it boils down to really, is our team just weren't good enough. Right from the start the players let themselves get rattled. They couldn't get a decent passing move together, actually, they couldn't get a decent attacking move together. Saha bottled it completely and the defense long balling it to him constantly didn't help either. Our whole midfield was useless, dunno what Richie Jones has going for him besides height? There was no creativity at all. And when we did manage to get a shot on target(twice all game?) we hit it straight at the keeper, who is then heralded as some kind of hero. That save was nothing special at all, Jones hit it straight at him, I could've saved that with my eyes closed...

    We can complain about the pitch all we want but we should have beaten that team all ends up, and I think that's what pains us the most.
     
  8. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    the match was refereed by Howard Webb. He's a premiership referee.
     
  9. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Um . . . Greenville SC has not been a part of Great Britain for a little over 200 years. And I am singularly responsible (I am afraid) for the use of "wizard-like" and "monolithic hackers". At least on this thread. So don't go around busting them out the next time you sidle up the bar at an "English pub". Also - the ManUtd fanboy board is the only English one on BigSoccer where they would take "Brits" without a quick rejoinder.

    Back to vocabulary skrool.:)
     
  10. StrikerCW

    StrikerCW Member

    Jul 10, 2001
    Perth, WA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh well, its close enough to the ocean. No need to get personal here with name calling! Was a simple mix up with vernecular and now you insult my beloved board. :eek:
     
  11. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    You're downplaying this quite a lot. At this time Liverpool were arguabley the best team in the entire world. The only challenger to this was the all-time AC Milan team that emerged at the end of the decade. You lost to a bunch of no-hopers and journeymen - whatever was you try and play this out..it was a huge, huge upset. So much so, that it is FA Cup folklore. Manchester United drawing to Burton will be forgotten about in 2weeks.

    You're also making it sound like we had our very best xi out there like you did vs. Luton. We had a team that most definitely was strong enough to win the tie, but by no means was it ever going to be the cakewalk you're suggesting. I said as much before the game and was not comfortable the moment I saw the pitch.

    Losing an FA CUp final to journeymen footballers is more embarassing than going out in the 3rd round at a tiny ground. Which we didn't.


    Yes... and did you see our CL campaign at fantastic stadia such as Lille's :rolleyes: our players are not cut out for that plain and simple.

    Burton played the game of their lives and were exhausted at the final whistle, they were blowing from the 70th minute onward, but on that pitch we tried the best we could to exploit this. It isn;t as cut and shut as you keep saying it is. I'm not going to keep going over the same point either. Most neutrals would say Burton played well, in a style we struggled against on a pitch we couldn't play on. That would be fair comment imo.

    Sorry I can't comment on that. I only know the FA Cup for such mismatches and nothing else. And the FA Cup always brings crazy games with it against lower league teams. Why did Chelsea not hammer their opposition...considering they are one of the strongest teams in the world right now?

    He doesn't. But to be fair to him he is growing a spine of late.

    You know exactly what I mean. You're being awkward or naive to not acknowledge that the average EPL is a pole apart from the average CL game for both refereeing and style of play.


    You had your best side out there. Yet you're making excuses instead of just giving Luton credit. So be it.

    I couldn't care less which lower league division Burton are from, they played well. One could even say they played above the standard of a Conference side as teams are want to do in the game of their lives...

    I have no idea if these other ties were with the EPL side at home or away. If they're home ties then i'd be inclined to agree.. If they are away, then anything can and happen.
     
  12. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    :confused: He was talking about the CL and European ties, not the Burton game.

    Besides which, I never once said Burton are a dirty side, I said they played their game to the best of their abilities and credit to them for that.
     
  13. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    You have to be kidding. Teams who finish 8th in the top division are good sides. You can't fluke your way to that sort of position. Wimbledon's players were not journeymen. You make it sound like they were 4th division plays who muscled their way to the top. The "shock" was because pundits creamed their jeans at everything Liverpool did at the time and refused to give "little wimbledon" any credit. Smaller sides never get the credit any success they achieve deserves - there's always some caveat where the pundit will imply they didn't deserve to do that well.

    Like I said, the odds of a Wimbledon win that day would have been at most 3-1. The odds of a Burton win (which they clearly didn't but...) would have been more like 20-1. A top division side going out to a non-league team is far more of a shock result, and far far more embarrassing.


    You were making out that the game was played under a different interpretation of the rules, which favoured Burton by letting a lot of things go which a premiership ref wouldn't allow.

    You may well get more physical challenges lower down the leagues, but that doesn't mean they are allowed any more than they are in the premiership.
     
  14. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    this thread is depressing... we drew a game when we started one player who could stake a claim in our best 11. so what???

    the defense was ok and the wingers weren't fantastic but I've said it once and I'll say it again. You will win nothing if you don't have a creative force in midfield. Richie Jones did ok, but he was inconsistent and while he did ok when he had the ball he didn't scream for it like a true playmaker would. O'Shea wasn't good enough either. Our hero Silvestre hit the ball long every single touch he got and the ones that Saha wasn't offside for, were won by the other team.

    When no one in your front 6 has a particularly good game you aren't going to score. We'll put about 6 past them on the return I should think, credit to them for sticking to their game plan.
     
  15. MtP07

    MtP07 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jan 3, 2005
    :eek: :eek:

    A scouser from G-Vegas???
     
  16. Soccerholic

    Soccerholic New Member

    Mar 6, 2001
    Mile High
    As far as the difficulties of playing a team like Burton away, here's another example that American fans might be able to understand. The USA's victory over the Soviet Union in the 1980 Olympics is one of the greatest upsets in the history of sport. Team USA were comprised of a bunch of college kids, while the Soviets were widely regarded as the best team in the world. USA played the game of their lives, were playing at home, did a good job of not giving the Soviets room to skate, and their goalie, Jim Craig, had a great tournament. Yet the Soviets were used to playing under international rules, the refs called the game fairly, and the ice was in good shape. How much would the playing field have been levelled if the ice were a crappy surface that the USA played on every day and the refs allowed more clutching and grabbing than the Soveits were used to. All of a sudden, it wouldn't be nearly as great of an upset if an unskilled team like the USA beats the Soviets.

    So, while United should find a way to score a goal and beat a team like Burton, it's not terribly surprising and far from the end of the world to draw with them when they played as well as they did. In two weeks, when United win easily, yesterday will be a mere footnote...

    As far as strategy in such conditions, it's clear that United had a huge amount of possession, yet were unable to get many good attempts at goal. In the second half, why not cede possession to Burton and pack it in the box? Burton are unlikely to get a goal, and United can look for a quick counter. With burners like Saha and the fresh legs Ronaldo and Rooney, United should be able to play balls into space for them and get decent chances on goal, especially against a tired Burton defense.
     
  17. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    good points Soccerholic, but Burton played a bit more enterprising football in thefirst half... I think once they saw that we were having trouble breaking them down they packed it in and hoped for a draw. We could have given them all the possesion in the world I doubt they'd have made much use of it after the 55th minute or so, all their attacking came off 3 man counter attacks or set pieces.
     
  18. Vermont Red

    Vermont Red Member

    Jun 10, 2003
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was obvious that we missed our midfield general, the man who can control the game, dictate the pace and rally the team. It will be a different game with Fletcher back in the lineup for the replay.
     
  19. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    it was somewhat amusing at first... now its starting to get on my nerves... the fletcher worship is what i speak of. lol, still good for a laugh though VR
     
  20. Soccerholic

    Soccerholic New Member

    Mar 6, 2001
    Mile High
    How about our former midfield general, the man whose new team got booted out of the Scottish Cup in his first game yesterday? Ouch!
     
  21. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Now I have to go back to Vocabulary skrool. I have never heard "G-Vegas":confused: before. You will have to enlighten me via PMs.
     
  22. Vermont Red

    Vermont Red Member

    Jun 10, 2003
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No offense, Johno, but you've been over the top with your Fletcher bashing. :) I'd be willing to concede that Fletcher's real worth to the team falls somewhere between our two extremes (closer to mine). While I freely admit that Fletcher is not the "next Roy Keane", I can say with complete confidence, even without seeing the game against Burton, that Fletcher is better than R. Jones.
     
  23. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    well, he might be better than R. Jones, but I've seen more than enough Fletcher performances closer to R. Jones than to Roy Keane and I'm sure I've seen worse performances, I never said Fletch was on the same level as Jones, just that he's had games like that. Jones was poor, just like Fletch is... sometimes. I agree, he's somewhere between inadequate and passable. When he's good he's passable, most times he's inadequate and every once in a while you'll see a performance outside of those parameters but its not very often.
     
  24. listen_up_fergie

    listen_up_fergie New Member

    Mar 3, 2005
    Montreal
    He's often "inadequate" when played out on the right of midfield. He started off the season pretty quietly even in the centre of midfield when he played there, but I've noticed over the last two seasons that Fletcher begins to come into form in the latter half of the season. His last few games for us has proved to me at least that he is amongst the best central midfielders in his age group in England.
     
  25. Vermont Red

    Vermont Red Member

    Jun 10, 2003
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey Johno, as long as this thread is winding down, how about this? In your opinion, who is the Fletcher among the regular posters on this board?
     

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