National 3 vs National 4

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RushOnze, Jan 27, 2003.

  1. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    I am trying to move on with this and focus on the positive but I do wnat to respond from my experience and personal knowledge. Not as, someone else who posted, from hearsay.
    I have seen those that have been fast tracked, most have been women so far. I have seen one go from invitie at camp to getting the national badge last year to getting the FIFA Referee badge this year. No way can someone, even a fast, fit, fast tracker, be ready for international play. Woo did the same thing. There are some good young fast trackers, but, they do not have the experience and are at great risk. Some seem to have nine lives. I know one who has failed so many assessments you think he would be working forever just to make up games. But, he is now in that "red" group.
    Alberto, yes, many are P.O.ed at working hard and doing what is expected plus and getting ignored for a guy who can run 3500 yards. Or because USSF is tryng to build up the Womens side of Nationals and letting them slide on some things. Not very fair but that is how it is. And now we return to the original posting and why we have so many Nationals and now need to scale back.
    Now I move on from this stuff and focus on continuing at my level.
     
  2. mutinywxgirl

    mutinywxgirl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    St. Petersburg, FL
    Absolutely fascinating reading...thanks for all of the insights.
     
  3. nylaw5

    nylaw5 Member

    Jan 24, 2002
    West Coast
    Just a few thoughts,

    Fast Tracking - "It" is the only way to describe if a referee is capable of being fast tracked. Yes they look for young and fit, realistically if you were to recruit for a position would you not search for someone who has time and fitness on their side? Experience is a collective thing that is built from repetition and from those who have been there before you.
    That being said, those who are fast tracked seem to be stuck in a position where there is sometimes no respect from your colleagues, and where they might be in over their heads. If I were a national referee who has been going to camp for years, I would feel a bit "shafted" to see a kid come in and take a position I could have filled. Now, put yourself in their shoes......are you gonna say "No, I'm not ready" when Esse tells you to run a MLS line?

    Current National Refs - I have seen my state send people to camp who are not great referees. They have experience and desire. But the quality of their assignments has not changed with the addition of "national" to their badge. I think USSF is realizing this. With two-hundred-something national referees there is a need to trim the population so those on the upper end can grow.

    It was said earlier, but I'll say it again, people will fall through the cracks, they always do. But where there is a desire to succeed, people find ways to make themselves noticed. Even if it takes returning to a youth tournament or an amateur competition that someone has moved past already, just to be seen by USSF brass....then that’s what should be done.
     
  4. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Whistle, certainly I am not trying to dwell on the negatives or make you revisit unpleasant things you have no control over. However, being 44 and having once contemplated trying for national only to go through a divorce and then having to place my plans on a permanent holding pattern, I understand your frustration regarding the issue of experience versus youth. No offense to our younger colleagues, but being a good referee is as reflective of your life experience as is it is of game count, clinics and level of appointments. Looking back at things now, I dare say I would have handled some situations quite differently at age 25 or 30, versus age 35 or 40.

    I see this drive to push young referees into the national program as a double edged sword. On the one hand it is best for development to get people in early and to train and assign the maximum number of appointments and provide the needed assessments for their development. That said, I have seen a lot of young referees with a higher badge that quite honestly I could out referee any time any place.

    Refereeing isn't just about fitness and keeping up with play. The most important aspects have to do with the personality of the referee. Laugh if you will, but it has a lot more to do with how good a referee you are than any other aspect. Mechanics, fitness, training, all of that can be improved upon. Your personality, your joy for the game, your grace underfire, all of these components come to play and define who you are as a referee and as a person. The passion and composure, you cannot fake. When you have passion you also have a feel for the game and with experience and confidence, come the right temperment on how to diffuse and handle situations before they get out of hand. It's same as in my business, it took me a good ten years to master project management. I don't personally believe you can take someone who never played the game and turn them into a national in 3-5 years. You have to have a love of the game and a feel for football. That does not happen overnight or in several years. Also, even if you do play. You need to watch international soccer, to get a feel for how the game is played in Europe and South America. This I cannot stress enough. I am always stunned when I speak to some referees and they are clueless of what happened in this or that match or have no idea when I mention Durkin or Poll or Winters.

    It may be easy to compare quantitative measures, but like all things, greatness is difficult to measure, but you recognize it when you see.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    Alberto, I think we are in total agreement here and what you ahve stated is my point exactly. yes, ther are some great young officials out there, but, from what I have seen they are way too green. I went from my first ref course to a National badge in only 7 years and I wasn't fast tracked. I made it when I was being told it couldn't be done. Yet I did it because I knew I could and wanted it. I proved myself without being pushed.
    I have always kept this quote from Hellen Keller above my desk and I look at it every day and every time that brick wall shows up and now I am reading again.
    "Optimisim is the faith that leads to achievement. Nothing can be done without hope and confidence."
     
  6. RushOnze

    RushOnze New Member

    May 16, 2001
    Colorado
    Why are most of you making such a big deal of the "red" group? This group will be different next year as people move up and down. Where there people in the "blue" group who should have been in the "red", probably. There has to be some point where you make a cut-off. I dare say, some in the faboulous red group may not see a pro game unless they buy a ticket or it is because the pro game happens to be in their backyard.
    Several things seem to be forgotten already. Ilaqua stated that the National 3 vs. 4 debate and how they would set it up is still uncertain, but that it will happen. Or that it may be a "profesional league ref" camp and the national camps at regional locations, where you go to both if you qualify.
    Also, there has to be a change in what Nat 3 means, which is basically a candidate for the FIFA panel and you must meet those requirements (age, games, citizenship, etc.) So even if you do get invited to the National "3" camp and your are, say, over 40, you cant qualify for a "3" badge and will get a "4" badge. I hope this is clear.

    Does anyone deny that the present format is too large? With a lot of useless "nationals" present. By useless I mean that don't/wont get any national level games other than they ones they find for the badge recert.
    Many of you are putting too big of a deal on those that failed the written test. Whoop Dee Doo. Because certain refs failed to be able to remember what the 3 points for a proper throw in are, or what 3 things are necessary for a proper kick-off or penalty kick. or weren't able to decipher the question where the goalkeeper stoppping a ball from entering the goal is not a Deny goal scoring opportunity offense because it came from a teamates throw-in.
    Most of that stuff you know it when you see it! But maybe you cant pull it out of memory. All my life I happened to be a good test taker, so the test wasn't too much of a problem. Other than being a little embarrasing for the folks on that list, I dont make much of it. Let me see how they ref.

    BECAUSE OF "FINGERSPYGELHUTEN" (terrible spelling on my part)
     
  7. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    Rushonze since you won't let this die off I will comment. Purhaps it is that you are new at this game ( and I don't mean the game of soccer). Those that have ben around long enough understand what was said at camp. There was a lot of double talk. The timing of the announcement and other facts indicate that many are going to get burned, not only the guys who just want to recert every year and don't care. What you are missing is that there is and always has been a better way to control the number. Setting and keeping the standards (that's why the written test is mentioned, you fail you fail, everyone took the same test), not making it so easy to pass an assessment (many assessors are told to find a way not to fail some guys, I know this as fact a do others), and maybe even raising the standard and stop watering down the badge by allowing certain people to slide by because of some unwritten rule for fitness standards, and finally giving everyone a chance to perform and prove themselves by having MLS, USL and WUSA give funds to support Referee development (so Referees in areas with MLS or A-League or WUSA can travel and work and be given a chance to prove themselves).
    Yes, we all heard what Julie said ( I even stated posts ago that they have announced this without even working out how they will do it), but, the sneaky way in which it was done was another message being sent. After many big names failing the written and the fitness tests, after allowing some of those to leave the retesting and spotting them 5 points so that they now passed, allowing some to just retake the sprints Friday morning. We all saw it and know what happened. AND on top of that to state that selection will be performanced based alone and that the "good o' boy" thing is dead and gone. It's a real slap in the face to all that worked hard to get to camp made all the standards without any extra help and were told all week end that they are the best and that all they need to do is work hard, trust, and believe.
    Yeah, there are many in that "red" group that shouldn't be there and won't be there next year. So what? We deserve better.
    Julie even went on to use the excuse of a financial burden. That USSF spent $125,000 to pay for camp and that some of the expense was offset by fees collected to come to National Camp. She stated that about $30,000 was collected through fees and other. Ths can't be true. Between the $200 and regestration fees and application fees alone, I add it up to be about $69,000. OK that's half the amount said to pay for camp. Why can't the rest be offset by MLS, WUSA, USL and MISL? Surely they could see the value in that investment. Other pro sports get this kind of money.
    I could go on and on Rushonze. It's not only about the written test. That's is just part of the message sent. Most of us are nobodies ( about 120,000 of us) no matter what level you are at. That was made clear at camp. "good o' boy" stuff dead? The proof was at camp.
    So, let's move on and do what we need to do to change things. I know I am.
     
  8. deep-throat

    deep-throat New Member

    May 24, 2001
    I think we are all in agreement here - the National camp/Regional Camp issue could have been handled better, and certainly needs to be more clearly defined. Also, those who will be invited to the "real" camp next year will certainly be different from the "red" group this year.
    Couple of thoughts though - Regarding the "requirements" for Grade 3. Those have been "bent" for a number of years now. There are a bunch of current Nationals over 40 years old who are Grade 3 now, and will continue to be. The "old" (still on the books) definition of a Grade 3 being those guys eligible for FIFA consideration (and therefore below 40 years old) was informally dropped years ago. And, incidentally, FIFA is expected to drop all age restrictions this week or next, so that point may be moot. Also, the female Refs are a differnet thing entirely. For the past number of years, EVERY single woman who has made it to National Camp one yaer, has gone to the FIFA panel the next. EVERY one, from Sandra Hunt to Jennfier Bennet. That's just a fact. That's not a fault in their part, and they should not be penalised or criticised for that - it's a different standard, and the needs are different. No one suggests that Jennifer Bennet is a better referee than Terry Vaughn because she has a FIFA badge - we're comparing totally different things here. So, the woment shouldnt be picked on or punished because, for once, there is a system that actually favors them. Bottom line, as I said, is that we all have to work hard, and hope at the end of the day that we get recognized and get what we deserve - whatever that happens to be. Whistle is correct in saying that there are a number of good referees who feel that they have been duped, and cast aside/passed over. That is a feeling that is valid and should be a concern to our bosses. How they address this, and how they go about ensuring that they dont lose a lot of "good" ones through trying to discourage the not-so-good, will determine how strong this program really is.
     
  9. RushOnze

    RushOnze New Member

    May 16, 2001
    Colorado
    Deep and Whistle you both make valid points and I would certainly like to hear how you guys might try to re-shape the National Badge and not break any hearts. (Not talking about people failing but not getting what they consider a fair shot).
    We are a few years away from having the leagues sponsor refs, but MLS made some effort by showing up with the coaches at least this year. However, the best you got now is the academies that USSF uses. (and these hardly existed a few years ago). If anything today a young USSF referee has a better shot a getting seen than ever before. the key word is young.
    I think you both have got to admit that there has been a significant improvement in National camps from the times when it was held in the summers on the east coast. Where the physical test was extremely easy and mattered not in the least when it came to assignments. I can assure you that all those names on the physical "failing" list will not see a game until they pass. (unlike pre-Silva days) and those on the written test fail list will see their choice assignments given to others. They do not go unnoticed.
    You cant even compare the women to anything. The standard for womens refereeing around the world is so low that we could have 100 better females referees in a week than the world produces. Just like WUSA being on its third year and clearly is the Serie A of womens soccer. the easiest way to a FIFA badge in this country is to get a sex change. Now, whatever you do, I am not dissing our female refs. Some of our refs are equal in quality to the men. But when it comes to being named to the Panel there just isnt the competition yet, like on the men's sides. All the women on our Panel our Class A material and I doubt at this point if you could find any women out there who are complaining about not getting a fair look.
    Personally, I think they should leave national camp similar to the way it is, 3s and 4s. But have a separate camp and additional camp for refs working the pro leagues with higher standards.
     
  10. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    I think that I have already stated what would be fair. If you would like we can continue this in a private message, I can be reached there. There is still too much risk at revealing my identity by discussing anymore on the forum.
     
  11. YellowRedOFF

    YellowRedOFF New Member

    Jan 31, 2003
    Nat 4 v. Nat 3

    Interesting thoughts and comments all the way around. No doubt there are a few crushed egos but the bottom line is life will go on. Congrats to all the rookies who made it. The fact that you are now in the top .3% of referees says lots and you should be proud to wear the badge. This was my 5th camp and hopefully not my last even though I will be 45 next month. I love this sport and am proud of my accomplishments even though I have yet to work an MLS or WUSA match despite living in a soccer rich region. Que sera. The bottom line is there are no guarantees once you get the badge. But this is a fraternity. You simply must keep up the ethics and standards you practiced to get here and occassionally ask yourself just why am I here? Is it about me or the game? Disappointed at Julies message, you're damn right I was. But to keep that attitude is not a characteristic of leadership as was preached at camp. All along I could see this coming, the question was when. Even since I earned my badge at Fullerton in '99 the powers to be have been saying they only needed half of us to fulfill the professional requirements. In my work life, I always had to put up with old age and treachery beats out youth and skill. Now that in FIFA's eyes I am old aged, I'm getting nosed out by the kids. There are no guarantees. I just wish we had the progam we now have in place back when I started. My suggestion to all who are concerned, born to early, or even give a damn is to find a way to give back to the sport. Believe me it will be noticed and appreciated. Again congrats to everyone who passed their tests, particularly on the first go round. Good luck, keep well, and have a great season.
     

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