Truer words were never spoken. But I have to tell you that in all the time I have been covering college sports I never cease to be amazed by the naivete of some prep athletes and their parents. They continue to believe what they want to believe and hear what they want to hear from the coaches; they continue to ignore very obvious, observable FACTS such as these huge 8-10 member recruiting classes that are down to 4-5 or less by graduation time. And don't think for a minute that I am talking only about soccer because there are variations of this kind of cynicism in every D1 college sport. Sorry, but the usual college life issues like homesickness, choice of different academic program, etc, does not account for all the athletes who fall by the wayside. But do you think the parents ever ask why it happens? Do they look over rosters that are two and three years old -- easy to locate on the Internet -- and ask why so-and-so left the program? Or more to the point, why 4-5 so-and-so's left the program after one or two years? However, it seems like prep athletes and their parents are willing to believe everything they are told; they think that somehow, things will be different for their son or daughter because, of course, he/she is so SPECIAL!!! After listening to a thousand butt-kissers at the prep level who had the kid thinking he/she is the next Freddie Adu (or Michael Jordan or Janet Evans or whatever) they just buy into all this stuff. So yes, you can blame the coaches if you want, but if the parents excercised a bit more vigilance, it wouldn't happen so much. In youth basketball, a lot of people have decried the rise of the AAU coach, those youth club coaches who seem to have an inordinate amount of control over young, black inner-city athletes. Well, it says here that that kind of power only can rest with a club coach when others abdicate their power. If the parents are clueless (or absent) and the prep high school coach doesn't have any input in the kids life, then there is a power vacuum that others can step into. Which brings me to the subject of the soccer club coaches. If a Div I coach is over-recruiting, why don't these bigtime club coaches warn their kids about it? Are they doing that? Or are the athletes tuning them out?
excellent post mike. i obviously don't have the exact answer to your questions but i do have some thoughts. the kids that decide to attend by big programs (acc, big east etc) usually are not being recruited on the club level. most of these athtletes are region team players (at least state team), play in nationwide odp tournaments and attend the esp camp. club coaches are usually only involved when a player needs his coach to do his recruiting, while the higher level players don't have to work as hard (or at all) to get their name out there. therefore i don't think the blame can really be placed on the club coaches. even if that coach happens to be bigtime and tries to convice a player otherwise, there are still the programs that lead a kid blindly into making a decision. unc being one of them. for a nc player to be told he could be on a unc roster regardless of what the outcome may be, he most likely will end up doing so because that's the dream of many nc youngsters. for a teen who grew up in the uva era to be told he could play at virginia, it will not matter (at that moment) about playing time. he cares about being a part of that dynasty he remembers. these are only two examples however i think these instances occur at many insitutions. like i said, i know this is not the exact answer, however i feel it may have a lot do with it.
Yes and I think Div. I soccer is oversold to high school players. They think they are failures if they don't 'sign" on to a Div I school. (and, sadly, their parents think they are failures!)....The end result is the same whether you go Div I, Div II, Div III or NAIA - you probably aren't going to make a career of soccer, so why don't you just go where you know you will play? Or, don't play at all or play intramurals or on a club team. Be a student first! .....Don't be duped by the coaches who say that even though you won't be on scholarship, you will still compete for playing time. Baloney. Only if injuries force the coach into playing you and you aren't three or four down on the depth charts already. It is great to be a part of a big time program but for all the time and effort you will put in and all the sacrifices you will make (no social life, hardly any dating, extra time in school due to lost hours for soccer, being exhausted all the time, under tremendous pressure, injuries from practice, etc) you had better REALLY love the program.
Run off...........Look you can use any word you like If you are a UNC supporter, how can you not know about the roster turn over ...give me a break Here is another little Bolowich secret. If you dont play you can stay as a practice player if you are 3.5 to 4.0 GPA. 2 seniors from a class of 11 7 juniors out of 13 8 soph out of 12 Bolowich brings in 8-10 recruits in the Fall and then in the Spring tells 4 players .....you are not going to play so you can either stay as a student at UNC or transfer......you will not have a roster spot.....that is running off It will not stop because these are mostly NC in state recruits who are not given scholarships so the new rules will not appy Dont forget in state tuition at UNC is one of the lowest in the US so the NC players get past admission with a below par GPA but a year or two later they are out of soccer. UNC gives it scholarships to the NATS or out of state studs.
of course i understand the turnover rate and yes it is high. you could look at it in two ways. one: elmar is an ass who promises the world to average players who don't have a chance at playing. or two: elmar gives average players a chance to be part of roster filled with all-americans and potentially get some pt and maybe even a ring. i know for a fact elmar doesn't promise ANYTHING to anyone and especially doesn't blow smoke up your ass. anybody who knows elmar knows this is true. yes, the second option is romanticized, yet this is how many in-state players and especially their parents view the situation. now, as i asked before. is there anyone you know first hand who has been run off? asked to give up a roster spot? not going to play so transfer? unless you have names you are merely spitting off garbage and trashing the name of a respected coach.
Bolowich has a meeting in the Spring and tell some of the players that did not play and has little chance of playing next year to either transfer or stay as a UNC student. It is not a secret to the CASL kids because it happens every year. And I agree that it is average players who should not have gone to UNC.
I can only speak from my experience and of those of kids that I know very well. We DID ask questions. We DID listen. The problem is if you have never been through this, you DON'T know all the questions to ask. Hell, at the time my son was being recruited I was trying to figure out what the hell FAFSA was. ALL of this was new. We were NEVER advised by our club coach that there was any over-recruiting going on. Our coach pointed out that there were two junior GKS, one of which was a standout. He said my son would probably not play for a couple of years. My son went in knowing this and as I said, has made his decison to continue based on MORE then just playing time. He also knew that they could bring in another younger keeper. However, that is just how it works. We understood that part. I do resent your comment that we parents feel our kids are "Special" and THAT is why we were caught off guard. There was NEVER any mention of pre-season cuts. There was NEVER any mention of a preseason roster of 40 players. NEVER. Understand that we were looking at this as the same as club. You try-out and once you are offered a spot, you are on the team for the next year. When a kid is flown up to a school and is told "We would like for you to play for us next year" in no way does that sound like "We would like for you to come TRY OUT to play for us this year". HUGE difference. My son was told "Show well this year and maybe there will be $$$ and playing time next year". That sounds like he will be definitely be given the year to prove himself.Yet, he was under the gun to make the team in preseason. And one keeper was let go. It is not presented to recruited walk ons that they are no different then a walk on that just shows up. It is presented that the only difference in the recruited WO and a scholarship player is that one has the $$$. Now, our coach did not officially cut anyone. But the roster was so big it was clear that the bottom of it, the ones without numbers, were never going to have a shot. One player we know at another school who left said, "If I had known that almost 40 were going to be here, I would have played at the D-2 school". That is just wrong. When my next kid goes throught this, we will be much better prepared. We NOW know the questions to ask. But we DID not know them the first time through. Yes, our club coach should have helped. But he didn't.
not only does he have meetings in the spring, he has them throughout the fall as well. i'm telling you right now, it is very rare that elmar give someone the option of tranfering or being cut. a majority of the turnover is from players quitting or another underlying issue. it is very rarely because of the players ability. there have been plenty of upperclassmen that played 4 years, never saw action, had average grades yet were never asked to transfer or be cut. anyone who tells you this happens often is flat out lying to you.
I guess the better scenario, in your mind, would be to do what other coaches do - continue to let the kids live in the "dream world" where they think they will play someday, have them devote another 1-2 years to the program, and then let them die off naturally due to being pissed about never getting to play and feeling lied to. I take Elmar's no nonsense, tell the hard facts and deal with it approach any day of the week. It's up to you to make your own decisions based on these facts.
This "bash Elmar" drumbeat from you is getting old. OK ... let's take a hypothetical situation and you give me your interpretation of what happened. Let's say it comes out soon that one of the back-up Wake Forest GK's decides to not be at Wake next year ... would you say the reason would be that he was a) run off by Jay, b) lied to by Jay, c) given an honest assessment of his potential PT by Jay, d) was in a TRYOUT situation conceived by Jay or e) any combination of a), b), c), or d)? Your answer is: ____ Someone earlier said "Look you can use any word you like" ... "give me a break" ... Oh, that was you ... just give it up, please.
It would just be better if the guys knew that up front, going in. Honesty from Day 1. Still, everybody thinks, "well that was the way it was for those guys, but not for me. I will work hard and earn the spot. You tell yourself that you are smarter, more dedicated, more determined, better than the guys who didn't make it in the program." Then, the next thing you know, you have spent one or two years as a practice dummy with little to show for it and, then, your coach levels with you. Only then, is he honest. You either quit the game or start over somewhere else. It would be nice if the NCAA would make teams list the numbers of guys leaving programs every year. Information like this should be in those college soccer recruiting books and should be told to guys in those soccer recruiting seminars. I did not go to UNC, so I have no opinion on the coach there but had a similar experience at another school. I have said it before : Recruits beware. Check this out carefully before making a commitment. The info is readily available and if you are interested in a school, make sure you look over the rosters from year to year. They are usually posted on the websites. It can save you a lot of grief and you can ask the coach some good questions. Hopefully, you will get some honest answers.
This is how it happens. Elmar tells everyone the truth from the beginning - he doesn't guarantee playing time. If you're good enough, you'll find the field. I don't think it's too much to ask players and their parents to do some research if they're really interested in playing at a program. I think the smart ones do. And the ones who don't are the same ones who end up complaining later on because they're still living in some fantasy world in which they see themselves as the star and can't understand why they're not playing.
The NCAA now has something called the APR which reports those players who transfer or are not eligible. That informationn is public.
I guess the better scenario, in your mind, would be to do what other coaches do - continue to let the kids live in the "dream world" where they think they will play someday, have them devote another 1-2 years to the program, and then let them die off naturally due to being pissed about never getting to play and feeling lied to. I take Elmar's no nonsense, tell the hard facts and deal with it approach any day of the week. It's up to you to make your own decisions based on these facts. =================================================== The better scenario in my mind is to NOT have 40 kids come to campus from your recruiting efforts. You get what? 9.9 scholarships, and the rosters are 18-20 usually. Recruit 18-20 kids, give them all money and be done with it. Walk-ons are great if you have one or two, if you have 15, there is no attempt to adhere to roster limits at all. I have written the NCAA on two seperate occassions asking that this practice be looked into. The response I received was that while it was not something they approved of, there was no rule against it. I am curious, do these kids sign LOI's? If they do, and they come as walkons then they should be counted towards players who leave the program, period. If not, there's no way to track this.
If I understand the NCAA rules, signing a LOI implies that you received some amount of scholarship money; therefore walk-ons and LOI's are mutually exclusive ... and walk-ons don't count in the APR numbers.
No, they do not sign a LOI. Only players receiving money do. My son did have to register with the NCAA clearinghouse but that was it. That has been my whole beef with this. Not parental pie in the sky dreams being trashed. Why do so many schools recruit so many walk ons and recruit them heavily? My son was chased all fall by two coaches at two different schools and yet shows up to find 6 goalkeepers (one didn't even bother with preseason after seeing the roster, one quit before the season starterd. both had options elsehwhere), three of which were walk ons that we knew nothing about at the time the decision was made. He was told he would be working toward a position in a couple of years because of the juniors ahead of him.The roster on my son's team still is at 30. However, only about 18 have actually gotten any playing time this year. I do understand that keeper position is somewhat different but come on. Those other players were good enough to have a D-1 coach at a school that is in the NCAA tournament recruit them. They had other options. I doubt that most would have gone to this school if they had known how many other walk ons would be there. And no, it did not occur to us to ask. We have never done this. It seems obvious now but only because we have been through it.
please allow me to play devils advocate. while smaller rosters would benefit the player individually (better chance of pt), i don't think it necessarily makes the team better. the larger number of players the more a coach is allowed to do (practice wise) with his team. for instance, a roster of 18 players would only be allowed to play 9v9 at the maximum. how are you supposed to work on the tactical aspects of the game if you can't have your starting 11 playing against another side of 11. i'm not sure about you, but i don't see how that helps the team prepare for an acc game. yes i know there are other things you can do, however i don't see it as beneficial as being able to play 11v11. also, during an acc season, players go down. every year there are numerous injuries because a season filled with acc rivalries will certainly take it's toll. if you add this to your desired 18 man roster, you drop down to at least 15 by the end of the season (hopefully not including any back up keepers). so...i looked at some numbers in the acc and it was just as i expected. Wake- 31 on roster UVA- 28 on roster UNC- 28 on roster Duke- 27 on roster Clemson- 26 on roster NC State- 26 on roster Boston College- 26 on roster Maryland- 25 on roster VA tech- 22 on roster with the exception of va tech, all are between 25 and 31. whether or not this means anything, i'll leave that for other conspiracy theorists.
No it doesn't. It only reports the APR scores for each athletic team in the school. And as I noted on an earlier post, UNC's APR of 957 is well ahead of the 925 they'd need to get before any discussion of penalties occurred. (FWIW, Indiana's is 926). The school ONLY gets penalized when their APR score is below 925, AND they have players leave (for whatever reason) who would not be academically eligible to attend the institution the following period (semester or quarter).
This thread is facscinating and filled with great info. An earlier poster commented on parents being idealistic and not understanding the real situation during the recruiting process. Can someone distill the commments above in a list of real questions to ask during the recruiting process? So that you know where I am coming from, my son is a 2007 grad, Region IV player, nationally recognized club, blah blah, blah. Since Sep 05, he is getting lots of flattering letters. In the next few months we will be visiting schools and probably speaking with the coaches. I would like to know the score before talking to them and go into this process with eyes open.
OK, let me see if I have got this right: it sounds like you depended almost entirely on one source of information, your son's club coach. Am I right about that? Did you talk to his high school coach? Did you talk to any of the parents of current and former UNC players? Did you talk to any of the former athletes themselves? You mean to tell me that there are no present or former UNC players and their parents from your area to whom you could have asked questions? How much would it take to call them up and say, "my son is being recruited by UNC. What can you tell me about the program? What will be required of him?" etc. I can tell you categorically that one of the very best sources of information is former athletes and their parents who no longer owe anything to the coach and can tell you the unvarnished truth. How about ODP coaches? Did you speak to any of them? Granted, a lot of the ODP coaches have a college affiliation and could have a clear bias, but if you read between the lines, there is much you could discern from them. What about other club coaches aside from the one you son played for? In my area, Washington, DC, there are a TON of qualified club level coaches, almost all of whom have had to deal with schmoozing college coaches who can give a real positivie spin about their Div I program. What about all of the people who work for your state Youth Soccer Association, some of whom have been around since dirt was invented? What about the people who run the summer soccer camps and the major youth tournaments where Div. I coaches always show up? Did you go through the archives of BigSoccer.com and view previous comments made about this college coach and his program? Did you check the archives of local newspapers? It says here that you had chances to get more than one opinion. If you didn't, then you just didn't do enough work and took what the college coach said to you on faith. Personally, I have nothing against Elmar Bolowich, even though I am a Maryland guy. I haven't heard anything bad about him. A few years ago I heard complaints that he was a good recruiter who couldn't teach up his players enough to accomplish much. Then, he won a national title and that all disappeared. I also never heard anything about him spin doctoring recruits. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, just means I never heard of it. So for the record, I really don't have a dog in this fight. I am just saying that if it is my kid going off to college and I am looking for information, I am going to be burning up the phonelines for months trying to find out as much information as I can from anyone who may have a valid opinion. And when you say "I was trying to figure out what the hell FAFSA was", I find that interesting because it took me less than 30 seconds to Google the word and here is what I found: http://www.fafsaonline.com/ I really don't care if you resent me, because if you want to waste your time with that, it is your problem. It sounds like you may have another son coming up and you have some research to do.
There is a big difference in a kid leaving the team when it is his idea. Versus Elmar telling them they no longer have a roster spot for the next year because of ability. I think if a kid wants to sit the bench for 4 years he should be able to do so if you recruited him. If you recruit the player you should keep him unless there are off field problems. A poster said UNC has upperclassmen that do not play.....BULLSH$t Not in the last 3 years 2 Senior out of 11 recruited and watch this year's roster with 28 and 3 leaving (2 seniors and McCarty MLS) makes 25 and Elmar will bring in 8 which makes 33........The roster will be around 28-30 again which means 3-5 will be asked to leave. UNC does this every year. Last year there were 4 seniors plus Watson MLS and Elmar brought in 10 recruits. Do the math You said you know the players are not asked to leave. Did you talk to the parents because I did. I know they are asked to become non soccer student or transfer because the parents have told me. It is common knowledge with the CASL family because too many CASL players have come and gone.
First of all, my son does not even play at UNC. I was commenting on the fact that that for parents and players new to this, there are many questions that need to be asked but WE DID NOT KNOW TO ASK THEM. THAT was my whole point. There was no mention of pre season cuts. There was no mention of 40 players showing up pre season. The years previous roster was 27 players. NO, I did not talk to his high school coach. The man never kicked a soccer ball in his life and was a warm body. My son's ODP coach called the college coach and gave him input on my son. He said about the program "Good school, coach has a good rep." He did not offer anything beyond that. Bigsoccer archives? I NEVER even heard of Bigsoccer until a couple of months ago. My son this year has had recruits stay with him. He was very careful of what he said to them. Keep it positive is what they were told. Who wants something getting back to the coach? And guess what. None of those recruits asked about pre season cuts, roster size and none of their parents have called me either. You obvisously do not have a kid. You certainly have not ever gone through a senior year with all that goes on with that and then add on college recruiting. Yeah. you googled FAFSA. You think that is all there is to it. As far as other club coaches goes, most of ours are from South America or Europe. They laugh at college soccer. I talked to one coach who was an alum of a school in the same conference. He had some insight into the coach but he gave NO info on the things I brought up. none. Sit on your high horse all you want. I know many parents that did their homework that were caught off guard. Do you REALLY think a coach is going to be upfront and say "Well, i typically bring in 40 players and you will have to make the pre season cut just to make the team but come play for me anyway and blow off that other school that is offering money." Do you really think the other players are going to tell you anything negative on a recruiting trip? Yes, we could have called former players no longer at the university. However, that too is grain of salt time. I know too many times in club the old sour grapes routine. My whole point is that if pre season cuts are involved the coach should be uprfront about it. If a huge group is coming in, tell the recruit up front and then let him decide. THAT was all I was saying.
Well, in this dad's defense, some former athletes who were cut from the team will never admit it. They say things like "it was too much work, I developed other interests, decided to transfer to get more time, etc" Too much pride to admit they made a mistake. If you ask the coach he will say "they weren't any good, couldn't cut it here, not a good student, had "issues" etc" You think you are different, you will work harder, you are better... It is really an ego thing. You have got to do the research yourself - regardless of what anyone tells you, if lots of guys have left and the roster has been turned over many times in recent years, THAT IS A RED FLAG. Ask your high school coach, ODPcoach, club coach, state association folks etc, why that is. Ask former players who no longer play but who might still be at school. Don't take the recruiter's word for it. Ask the coach how many scholarships he has. Ask how many on the team are on scholarship. Be VERY leery of accepting a walk on role, preferred or not. See how many players the team actually keeps for four or five years. Lots of five year guys (former red shirts)? That would be a good sign of loyalty to players. Be leery of teams with high numbers of foreign players that only seem to stick around a short time. Look over the game stat sheets and end of season stats for individuals and look for the guys that didn't get much time or no time. Ask about them. Just some advice to avoid trouble. Others could add more, I am sure.
I agree with this post. I am a Wake fan but this is not a UNC thing. The girls soccer team does not do this. The basketball team does not do this. My point has alway been that I do not like that Elmar gets recruits that Wake, UNCG and others would like to have and in a year or two Elmar has found a new recruit that might be better so you no longer have a roster spot.. At this point the player is usually discourged and quits soccer or does not want to start over with another college and friends. If you recruit the players use them and if you are not sure they can play at UNC let the player go to another program. If UNC was forced to keep all their recruits instead of asking them to leave. The bench players would get PT. The reason the bench do not get PT is because Elmar uses 3-4 subs and is allowed 8-10 recruits every year. If you bring in 10 regional ODP players some are better than others but the worst in the group is a good player. Instead of giving the worst of the class 2 years to get better, Elmar asked the bottom half to leave and brings in another 10. It is ideal for the coach and Elmar gets a top 10 recruiting every year because UNC is famous for playing freshman but where is the other half of the recruiting class. ....keep the great ones and throw away the average away.... The coaches are suppose to research the players and the committment should be for 4 years IMO.