The Best Player In Scandinavia?

Discussion in 'Scandinavia' started by nirvaanfc, Apr 23, 2005.

  1. Herou

    Herou New Member

    May 23, 2004
    Sweden
    Mellberg has matured alot since then and is captain for Aston Villa, and he did play well in La Liga even if his team did get relegated. You also claimed Laursen would do better, why is that? This discussion is rediculous because you are danish and I'm swedish and you will always say the danish players are better regardless of what I say.
     
  2. mellon

    mellon New Member

    Jul 26, 2004
    Liverpool
    Well Zlatan was one of the top scorers in the Champions League for Ajax, so its not like he hasn't performed on this Level. In the british papers lately Gravensen said himself that the best attacker he has ever played against was Zlatan. He said and I qoute; Zlatan is the most difficult attacker I have ever encountered, he is not only very strong, but he has a technique which is world class.

    So Koldrup, since I reckon you are a Dane, like I am a Swede, you are bound to have opinions in favour for Gravesen.

    But let me ask you this, which player in the Real Attack would Zlatan not be able to compete against? Owen (he is overrated anyway)?, Raul (he is the best one they have according to me), Ronaldo (honestly he is not the player he was a few years back)?

    None of those strikers are of better quality than Zlatan, if they were I think its strange that Real is not dominating any more than they are.

    Do you regard that Gravesen would go into the Juventus midfield? Maybe? what players would he compete against? lets check

    In Real:

    5 Zinédine Zidane 23.06.1972 FRA
    6 Iván Helguera 28.03.1975 ESP
    10 Luís Figo 04.11.1972 POR
    20 Albert Celades 29.09.1975 ESP
    21 Santiago Solari 07.10.1976 ARG
    23 David Beckham 02.05.1975 ENG

    In Juve:

    3 Alessio Tacchinardi 23.07.1975 ITA
    8 Emerson 04.04.1976 BRA
    11 Pavel Nedved 30.08.1972 CZE
    16 Mauro Camoranesi 04.10.1976 ITA
    19 Gianluca Zambrotta 19.02.1977 ITA
    20 Manuele Blasi 17.08.1980 ITA
    24 Ruben Olivera 04.05.1983 URU
    36 Paolo De Ceglie 17.09.1986 ITA

    I reckon that Gravesen would have it difficult to play in the Juve team, as a defensive midfielder they have Emerson, which I still regard is better than Gravesen, if Gravesen would try to play on a different position who would he take the place from, Nedved, Camoranesi, Zambrotta???

    So in all fairness, Being in the Juventus team seems to be pretty more difficult than the Real team. And do not mention anything about Figo or Zizo or Beckham, honestly, those three are not what they used to be either, Zizo is still okay, but Beckham?? (not even the english regard him as one of their best players, I know I live in the UK), Figo, amazing player, a few years back! Not the same anymore.
     
  3. Herou

    Herou New Member

    May 23, 2004
    Sweden
    He could compete with Blasi or Tacchinardi on the second defensive midfield spot.
     
  4. mellon

    mellon New Member

    Jul 26, 2004
    Liverpool
    Point taken, but what I am trying to portray is that as a defensive midfielder Real do not really have top quality players, hence the arguement saying that Gravesen is the best since he has so quickly achieved a first team place at Real Madrid doesn't really work IRL.

    Secondly I saw someone taking out three top keepers from Scandinavia, Sorensen, Jaskalainen and Hedman??? Niemi and Isaksson are both better than the three mentioned.
     
  5. mellon

    mellon New Member

    Jul 26, 2004
    Liverpool
    I reckon we would do pretty well, but its difficult to say what the team would be, I think I am too bias meaning I would probably pick too many Swedes but this is my team (4-4-2):

    Keeper - Antti Niemi

    RB - Thomas Helveg
    LB - Jon Arne Riise or Erik Edman
    DC - Olof Mellberg
    DC - Sami Hyppia

    LW - Fredrik Ljungberg
    RW - Dennis Rommedahl
    DMC - Tommy Gravesen
    AMC - Morten Gamst-Pedersen

    AC - Zlatan Ibrahimovic
    AC - Henke Larsson or John Dahl Tomasson
     
  6. sl7vk

    sl7vk Member

    Mar 3, 2005
    Salt Lake City
    Club:
    AS Nancy Lorraine
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Clearly it's Kim Kallstrom. :)
     
  7. Kroldrup

    Kroldrup Member

    Jan 16, 2005
    Mexico, but Danish
    So? JDT was one of the top scorers in Feyenoord when he played there. Your point is? We're talking about football now, not back then.

    And about Gravesen's quote, does he say that Zlatan is better than himself? No. It doesn't prove that one is better than another. And how do I know you didn't make that up? Post a link. I might as well say that "Gravesen is the best defensive midfielder I've played against"----Zlatan Ibrahimovic

    Face the fact. If Zlatan would get injured, it wouldn't be a great loss. Trezegol/Alex Del Piero would replace him and there would be no problem. But if we would lose Gravesen, who would there be to replace? Guti (hell of a player indeed), but the Dane took his place. Gravesen without a doubt has a more of a key role for Real Madrid, thus making him better.

    I'm not biased. I really do think Gravesen is better than Zlatan. Want me to prove it?

    Sweden is atm one of the best sides in europe and surely have a better squad/reputation. Denmark is utter shite lately. Tomasson can't play as a regular for Milan, thus making Zlatan much better. And Erik edman is better than Niclas Jensen as well. He just recently scored, while N. Jensen is just warming the bench.

    Owen has the highest scoring rate in La Liga. He isn't the top scorer, but he scores in almost every match he comes in as a substitute. Zlatan couldn't even score in the CL with all that time that he played as a starter.

    Ronaldo?? Your kidding. Ronaldo is one of the top scorers in La Liga, the best league in Europe. Not as he used to? What?? Are you reading 1 year old news? Ronaldo is back! Scoring continous goals for Brazil and Real Madrid. Just look at the last matches for Real Madrid.

    Who the hell couldn't replace Raul? I'm sure that Peter Graulund could replace him.


    They are 6 points behind in La Liga. Not doing any better..!! Hahaha. Woodgate injured, Raul in bad shape, Samuel in bad shape, Figo in bad shape, etc. We're doing better than what it should be, thanks to Thomas Gravesen. and Tommy Smyth (one of the best sporting commentators in the world) claimed that Real Madrid indeed missed Gravesen in the match against Villareal. He not only protects the defensive side of the field, but he also shoots well and is a great playmaker.

    If Zlatan could replace Alex Del Piero and David Trezegol, why the hell wouldn't Gravesen be able to replace any Juve player? Nedved undoubtedly stays in, but Emerson leaves. Gravesen was considered the best midfielder in the EPL before he left towards Spain. Yes, above Gerrard and Lampard, believe it or not. It was also said that he would win the EFA Best player of the year award, who Terry obtained recently. I would post links if I could, but since the rating as best midfielder was 4 months ago, the site has already been updated and Gravesen is out of trace because of his move during the winter break.

    True. I agree with you on that one. It indeed is more difficult to enter Juventus lineup. But what makes you think Gravesen couldn't? If Zlatan could kick aside Trezegol/Alex Del Piero, why wouldn't Gravesen be able to kick out any Juventus player?
     
  8. Kroldrup

    Kroldrup Member

    Jan 16, 2005
    Mexico, but Danish
    I. Martin Laursen has played three seasons for Milan (if I'm not mistaken). Last season he only played two matches, but in the other two he was in the strating lineup. Ever since Nesta came by, he lost his place. So FYI, he did play a lot for Milan. He also scored two goals in his very first two matches with AC Milan, which made him considerably one of the best defenders in Italy.

    II. He already has experience in top clubs ---> AC Milan. Mellberg has no idea what it feels like to play in a big club. He has only been playing in ************ areas (except with Aston Villa from their past season form ;) ) Laursen would make it there in an easier manner. Don't come up and say "But Aston Villa have won a Champions League." That was then, this is now.

    III. And Laursen hasn't matured from his time in Milan? Laursen has done nothing but mature in all the time warming benches last season. Take a look. He gave up on one of the world's best Italian clubs to join an alright nowaday Aston Villa side.

    IV. Laursen has terrible pain from his knee injury, and he's Aston Villa's best defender now. Even you have to accept that. He scored a goal in his comeback and two weekends ago was considered in the best eleven Premiership players of the week:

    http://www.goal.com/NewsDetail.aspx?idNews=56349&idSez=12

    Last weekend's (yesterday :D ) selection has yet to come up.

    V. I'm not biased. Check yourself. I've claimed that Zlatan is better than Tomasson and in the other thread (which was swapped into this one due to the creator forgetting about Norway) I claimed to retrieve Peter Lovenkrands out of the list because he's sucked so far.

    True. sorensen has been nothing but **************** this season.
     
  9. Herou

    Herou New Member

    May 23, 2004
    Sweden
    No, Mellberg has not played in a huge club like Milan but that doesnt automaticly mean that Laursen is a better player because he has been warming the bench at Milan.

    He realized he wasnt good enough for Milan. It´s not like Milan wanted to keep him. When I watched a Milan-game I got nervous whenever he got the ball. You knew he could screw it up any second. Costacurta is a better option.

    Yes I admit Laursen is Villa´s best central defender at the moment. Mellberg is out injured.
     
  10. mellon

    mellon New Member

    Jul 26, 2004
    Liverpool
    Owen is not what I call top quality and if managers could choose between Owen or Ibrahimovic, I reckon they would choose Ibra, he brings more quality to the game while Owen is a one way player....

    I am not saying Ronaldo is bad, he just not as good as he was, I am not impressed that he scores for Brazil, he has always done that, Brazil and Argentina usually score a lot of goals during wc qualifiers.

    Yeah exactly, with all their "world class" stars they should be leading, thats what their fans and board is expecting. Woodgate, sorry he is just a very very overrated player, even my geordie mates agrees with me and he was regarded to be one of their better players! Of Course Real Misses Gravesen, I am not saying Gravesen is bad I am saying that its not such a big deal to go into the Real Madrid team especially not as a defensive midfielder because they do not have any sort of quality on that "department". Sure you have to be a very good player, but not worldclass.




    Because the difference is that in Europe the most managers regard Zlatan to be one of the top talents in the game, while many would not say the same for Gravesen ( I like Gravesen, i think he is a top player, but if Italian sides are good in producing something it is defensive midfielders!), and how can you ever say that Gravesen is going to replace Emerson, who is regarded to be one of the best if not the best on a defensive midfield position.

    And if you thinking about putting Gravesen in a creative role think again, while it might have worked in the EPL, it will not work in leagues such as Spain or Italy.

    Says who, I live in Liverpool, in the UK, I follow the EPL very closely every day, and when was it said that he would win the Best player of the year???? That is truly only bull..., I agree that his season with Everton was great, but it wasn't only Gravesen that made them great, the whole Everton team has this year overachieved. During the whole season the favourites for the award has always been Lampard and Terry... I don't know where you get your information from, but since I read daily newspapers here everyday, I follow the EPL shows everyday, I kinda now what's what.
     
  11. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    Gravesen was actually in 1st place as the best midfielder on the official EPL Actim Player Rankings when he signed with Real Madrid. He was also ranked as the 4th best of all players in EPL on the EPL Actim top 100 ranking... It's also interesting that Real Madrid signed Gravesen as the new Makelele, while also Chelsea had hoped to sign Gravesen...

    Perhaps I should also add that Gravesen has been selected by Spain's biggest sports newspaper, Marca, as the "best buy" in La Liga this winter break
    .
     
  12. mellon

    mellon New Member

    Jul 26, 2004
    Liverpool
    Actim Player Rankings has nothing to do with the PFA Players' player Award does it? So it does not really show anything about the point of saying that Gravesen was better then the Likes of Lampard, who I regard as much better.

    Lampard has proven to be an excellent two way player equal to Gravesen's ability, the only difference is that Frank Lampard is probably one of the best attacking midfielders in Europe at the moment, while Gravesen still has to prove on that level.

    Ceres sometimes (not often) you actually provide us with the wrong facts. The players' player of the year award has of course nothing to do with the Actim Player Rankings.

    Some facts during the season Gravesen had a ratio of 0.19 Goals/Game and 0.33 Assists/Game, Lampard had a ratio of 0.29 Goals/Game and 0.39 Assists/Game. A Question what is his "ratio" in Real?

    Yeah I know someone might argue that Gravesen played in a "********" team like Everton, but heck the whole question was, Has Gravesen during the season infact been ranked before the likes of Lampard and Terry and Gerrard in the PFA Players' Player of the season award??? (which is what Koldrup was referring to if he mention the "award" that Terry recently won)

    No he has not, because the players award is nothing that is decided opon the middle of the season, the players are asked about it by the end of the season... So in what stats can one prove that Gravesen was ahead??? No where...
     
  13. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    I do not provide you with the wrong facts, but the only facts !... As you say, only the players know who will win the players award at the end of the season. Kroldrup claim it would be Gravesen, you claim e.g. Lampard is much better, that's your opinion. However, like it or not, Gravesen was actually rated the best midfielder and 4th best player in EPL by the official EPL Actim ranking, that by the way also produce the official team, player and match statistics for the EPL... No offence, mellon, but though you live in England, I trust Actim to better at rating EPL players than you ;) ...

    .
     
  14. Kroldrup

    Kroldrup Member

    Jan 16, 2005
    Mexico, but Danish
    So what? Who do you think I'll believe? An accurate rating in the internet or a person that no one really knows showing his biasity?

    Hahahaha. Something that really proves that you don't know anything about Gravesen. Lampard and Gravesen play two whole different positions. By your comments, I see that your still thinking of the Gravesen that played for Everton (that's when he played as an attacking midfielder), but Gravesen indeed is much better as a defensive midfielder (his original position).

    You can't compare an attacking midifielders scoring ratio to a defensive midfielders ratio. Have you ever seen him play for Real? By your info, I apparently see that you haven't. ;)

    Ahh, you just proved my point. You haven't seen Gravesen play for Real. As I previously said, Gravesen's especiallity isn't attacking, but defending. That's why his scoring ratio wasn't as high. But, heck, he wasn't too far away, was he? I'd like to see Lampard as a defensive midfield. He wouldn't stay in the starting lineup, surely, if he would play Gravesen's position.

    I'm searching for the exact same link I read about now :)

    This might take some time...

    It doesn't take more than 6 months to say that one player plays well for a club, you know..

    It's actually the right amount of time to consider the player being in the list. And I wasn't climing that he wasn't on the list. It was ***rumored***

    When the hell did I ever say he was ahead?



    Oh, and just because you live in England, does it mean that you are the all knowing Premiership fan? Nope, and it shows.

    I also get to see England football players, and I have millions of pages that give me the best updated football information than just newspapers.

    www.playerwatch.co.uk

    No page better than that one.
     
  15. Kroldrup

    Kroldrup Member

    Jan 16, 2005
    Mexico, but Danish
    Who gives a ******** if the player wants to "pose in front in cameras" like Zlatan does when he plays football. That's what makes a player overrated. C. Ronaldo and Ronaldinho are overrated by those spins and magic tricks they do during a match. We're here to see football, not comercials. Gravesen does his job seriously, and played better than Zlatan in the CL, despite the difference in time playing. Gravesen was out there doing his job, while Zlatan was just doing his useless tricks that didn't bring any goals from him in the CL.

    Look at Tomasson. He was sent out in the field to do his job and to score a goal to give Milan a comfortable lead. He came in for the last 20 minutes and did his job, SCORE. A feat Zlatan couldn't do this season in the CL. Tomasson used his time wisely instead of doing tricks.

    And if you come up with his goals in Italy, let me tell you that the Serie A is a million times easier than the CL. Which sides are good in the Serie A? Umm....AC Milan.....Inter......oh, and nobody else. Maybe other clubs (like Udinese and Sampdoria) are good, but they are definetely not CL material. It's a lot easier to play, especially scoring, in the Serie A than in the La Liga.

    And now you may be asking what all this has to do with Owen? Owens scoring ratio is higher than Zlatan's this season. He's played less games and almost equalled his scoring tally in La Liga.

    Ok. Point taken. But Zltan in no way would replace Ronaldo. It's common sense. Ask any Real Madrid fan if they would replace Ronaldo with Zlatan.

    How the hell can Woodgate be rated as one of the best players if he hasn't even played? your confusing fact with opinion, mate.

    You are just being biased now, saying that they have no sort of quality in Real Madrid. If they have no quality, then how the hell can they be in second place? Real Madrid can't win always. And Real is playing better than Barca at the moment. Even you have to admit that.

    You have no idea that he isn't worldclass. you're referring to the Gravesen in Everton, not the Gravesen in Spain..

    Find me a single link that says that Zlatan is referred by most managers as one of the top talents in the game. You can't say all that without no proof, my friend.

    Emerson isn't Italian, so don't say that Italians make the best defensive midifielders. Italians make good players from every position, and Danes in Italy have taken all those positions:

    Jorgensen is one of the best Fiorentina players nowadays, in his very first season.

    Per Kroldrup has returned to the starting lineup after a long groin injury that has affected his play.

    And JDT may become a starter again after his goals vs. PSV and Parma.

    If it worked in EPL, it will definetely work in the other two. There's not much difference from the three league's, you know. You may as well say that England's is the best, for they have TWO teams left in the CL, while Italy has one and Spain has none.
     
  16. Suss

    Suss Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 11, 2003
    New York
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Its a bad argument, because Gravesen just happens to play the one position where Madrid desperetley needed a player. Using your logic...there is no way Graveson would start for Juventus, yet Zlatan does.

    I voted for Zlatan. He is the most talented player in Scandanavia imo.
     
  17. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    Do you belive Makelele would be a starter then ??... since I'm sure many Real Madrid fans would agree that Gravesen is a more complete player than Makelele...

    I'm pretty tired of ppl who really dont know much about Gravesen, but still rate him as a fairly average "tough guy", because he used to play for rather small Everton and is not as well known as e.g. Makelele... Gravesen has surely been the most important Danish NT player for years and a big reason why Denmark have managed to qualify for the past 5 Euro and WC finals in a row... I had this very same discussion just before the Euro-04 with a Dutch guy, Galvatron, that clamed Gravesen was pretty average and non of the real big clubs would be interested in signing him... Now Gravesen is a regular at Real Madrid and plenty other top clubs have shown interest for him as well....

    It seem to be a big surprise for many ppl in this forum, that Gravesen actually was voted the best foreigner in the Bundesliga before moving to Everton and as written also officially ranked as the 4th best player in EPL before moving to Real Madrid.... and now he has been selected as the "best buy" in La Liga by Spain's biggest sports newspaper, Marca... So it's a bit difficult to understand why some ppl seem to keep underrating him ?..

    Gravesen is, belive it or not, actually every top managers dream. A midfield "pitbull terrier", that intimidate the opponent and fight for every inch in every minute of a game, but at the same time also got the anticipation and the technique to make some brilliant passing and create huge opportunities... Truely a unique midfielder in Scandinavian football and surely a more important player for Real Madrid and the Danish NT, than Zlatan is for Juventus and the Swedish NT ... However, forwards always seem to be more highly rated than midfielders by soccer fans ...

    .
     
  18. mellon

    mellon New Member

    Jul 26, 2004
    Liverpool
    First of all, great to have a proper discussion, but now to the point, Zlatan might not have scored any goals in the CL this year, but its more to his game than just goals, in many games for Juve his has been regarded one of their best players even thou he has been goalless, he brings quality to his team and open up opportunities for his team-mates.


    I reckon you totally missing the point, there is no league in the world where the league is so difficult to win, because there is no where in the world where you have so many big big teams (Inter, Milan, Juve, Roma, Lazio), many sides are definitely not as good offensively as Spanish sides (whom I regard to have the best attacking league in the world) but the Italian league has and still is known for its tactical superiority to other leagues, you will often see much more goals scored in the Spanish, German, French and English league because the teams are not as defensively strong.

    So for you to say that its a million times easier to score in the Italian league just shows me that you don't really know anything about Italian football and Italian football culture.


    If you read my posting correctly I said and I quote: 'Woodgate, sorry he is just a very very overrated player, even my geordie mates agrees with me and he was regarded to be one of their better players!': Meaning the Geordies (Newcastle-born people) opinion on him while playing in Newcastle

    I am not saying that Real has no quality, they do have Quality in players such as Gravesen, Figo, Zizo, Raul, Ronaldo, Helguera etc., its more that I don't think they have top world class players anymore (Zizo is still pretty damn good, but not as good as before) and Gravesen is a very good player, and a very sympathic human being when you meet him in person.

    I hope you are right, that he is as good as you say, but I would like to see him play a full season in Real's shirt before deciding myself. He has definitely improved since his "average" previous seasons with Everton.



    I am not claiming that Emerson is Italian; I was just referring to him because of the Real vs. Juve issue. Italian footballers are some of the best defensive players in the world, I reckon if you started to look into players from different nations you will see that Italians have a huge selections of very good defensive midfielder, so here is my point, in Spain you have a better chance of playing in the defensive position than you would have in Italy because the competition is much harder in Italy.


    Well that argument doesn't work does it; the overall quality of the leagues is not about the top 3-4 team’s right? I am a big Premier league fan, but I regard the Spanish and Italian league to be one step ahead of the EPL, purely because of the attacking superiority of Spain and the tactical superiority of Italy.


    By the way what are you doing in Mexico?:)
     
  19. mellon

    mellon New Member

    Jul 26, 2004
    Liverpool
    So you mean if Gravesen was a attacking midfielder in Everton, than the ratio actually can be compared (Gravesens ratio is from when he played in Everton), since its two players in two similar roles right????
     
  20. Vfbstuttgartfan

    Aug 3, 2004
    Stuttgart
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    I voted for Gravesen to be the best.
    Close behind imo are:
    Ibrahimovic
    Riise
    Gudjohnsen
    Tomasson.

    I was surprised by the inclusion of Forsell, who doesn't seem up to it anymore in comparison to the other players, besides that, a well-selected poll.

    I think Litmanen would despite his age, still have fit in. He has very strong for Rostock since joining them this winter and if they survive in the 1. Bundesliga, he will be the one to thank. Gronkjaer would also have deserved a spot.
     
  21. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    There is no way in hell that he would start over Wilhelmson.
     
  22. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    In my humble opinion:

    Ibrahimovic/Gudjohnsen/Larsson should and could all start over Raul. Of course, the idiotic management would probably disagree, but if they prefer to regularly play with a 10 man disadvantage...

    Riise would probably start in a left-midfield position.

    Kroldrup and possibly Hyppia would have a good shout at a central defensive position.
     
  23. mellon

    mellon New Member

    Jul 26, 2004
    Liverpool
    Are you considering a scandinavian best eleven?? In that case, there is noo way Riise will take the left midfield position from Ljungberg! In central defense it would be one of these three blokes; Hyppiä, Mellberg or Laursen

    or are you talking about which players who would be able to get into the Real Madrid? In that case Ljungberg would do far better then Riise. And the same goes with the defense, Hyppiä, Mellberg or Laursen are all of good enough quality to compete for a place in the Real defense.
     
  24. Bruiser

    Bruiser New Member

    Jun 1, 2004
    Sykkylven, Norway
    Club:
    SK Brann Bergen
    Nat'l Team:
    Norway
    Riise would OWN Ljungberg in ANY position!!!!!!!


    !!!!!

    ..
     
  25. Kroldrup

    Kroldrup Member

    Jan 16, 2005
    Mexico, but Danish
    You're biasity is extreme, Bruiser...
     

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