Official DC United vs New England Revolution POST Match Thread [R]

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by jason1551, Apr 23, 2005.

  1. BigKris

    BigKris Member

    Jan 17, 2005
    Falls Church, VA
    OK, I think a lot of us are bitter about the loss -- I know I am -- but we gotta give the Rev's their due. They're a damn good soccer team. I knew they had a lot of skill, but the thing that impressed me seeing them live is that they're physically imposing, tall and big, and then on top of that they play with a very aggressive attitude. They've got what Joe Gibbs used to call "Athletic arrogance".
     
  2. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    It was wet and cold and slippery. A lot of players were going down. And who-ever mentioned it, yes--it did seem like the infield grass was lower and the ball played differently.

    I really hate to blame a result on an injury or foul (especially an early one in the match). But I thought the shove/elbow by Twellman on Stokes was the single key play in the match.

    1. Stokes turned out to be concussed--that's what the paper said and at the time, I watched him move after the play. He reacted slower, a couple of times went in a small circle like he'd just landed on a foreign planet, kept putting his hands to his head and it seemed (can't say for sure--combination of my eyesight and water on the binoculars) that he kept trying to open his eyes really wide like he was trying to clear them. I said at the time "hey, I bet he's got a concussion." Now some of you Stokes haters would say "what's the difference?" but the reality is that when Stokes got hurt our defense fell apart.

    Maybe Twellman still gets free on that first goal (which was a fine run by Dempsey by the way--and Carroll did a good job on him--Dempsey couldn't cut in but managed to get 1/2 a step--enough to get the cross in). But for my thinking, a concussed Stokes doesn't allow Twellman to get so free. If he stays with him, that's a non-play that is cleared out of the zone. So that's 1-0.

    And then everything falls in within 15 minutes. Maybe the Stokes injury has no impact. But I think it did. Our defense is too thin and without a proven organizer, too unable to deal with "shocks to the system" (which is what happens when a Petke goes out--ala Pumas, or a Stokes gets hurt or goes out--ala Saturday night).

    That was the game. No foul by Twellman and I don't see our defense caving in like they did. The Revs (to their credit), took advantage of the mistakes/gaps when they appeared there for about 12-15 minutes. In some ways, it reminds me of the LA match last year where they ripped off a bunch of goals in 15 minutes as well as we made Herzog look like Maradona.

    2. I thought none of the PK calls were especially legit. The first on Boswell was cheap, cheap, cheap. After Twellman had pushed Stokes into Rimando and he goes up for a high ball with your keeper, what defender doesn't stay with him and try to body him away from the play? That's a terrible call--unless there was something more to it than what I saw. The first PK for Moreno--that was a stupid call. If you make the call for the 2-footed tackle than the player also gets a card. So you either issue the card or you don't (and that determines if you call the PK or not as well). It's not give the PK and not the card (or vice-versa). The third PK was a cheap foul but stupid play and therefore callable.

    3. Gros was a huge factor in goals #3 and #4 for the Revs. No way Santino was put in to play right back. He gets subbed in for Stokes, then Santino and Gros switch positions (right mid, right back). Gros blew his mark and Riley was left wide open. Then Dempsey beat Gros on the cross for goal #4.

    4. On the "Guppy Controversy", I think the point about crosses and our height is too simplistic. Guppy is a limited player. When everyone is healthy, he doesn't start. He starts now b/c Dema is hurt, Van Sicklen is still a rookie and Simms hasn't laid claim to an outside mid spot yet. Guppy isn't doing stereotypical crosses high into the box. Additionally, he serves up a fine corner--remember how lame our corner service has been most of the past 3 years? What he is, is a guy who sees the field well, is unselfish and does a great job of playing the ball from a wide position into a position where attackers will have immediate chances. He showed that last night. He does short and long crosses, high balls and low or driven balls, balls to the top of the area. He's a good sub to have. But right now he's starting b/c we've got injuries. Though I suspect if he's got a hamstring injury, he's probably out as long as 6 weeks (I'm just guessing). So the Guppy-bashing may be temporary put to rest for the time being.

    5. The Simms sub was a smart move. Forget positions (ie: he's a D-mid so that must means he's a defensive sub while we're trailing by a couple). Simms is playing good ball, you can make a reasonable argument he's one of our best 11 players. He's got good pace, is versatile--in a match like this he is more than just fresh legs, he's a guy who will win you a ton of balls with his speed, ball-winning ability and decision-making. Plus, he can either allow Olsen to push up or Gros to play midfield. And in a game where you're running out of subs (b/c you've used 3 of them plus lack of experienced depth due to injuries), Simms is a guy you want to get on the field b/c if a body goes down he can shift everywhere (ie: A-mid in college, outside mid and D-mid in pro-ball, some backline in preseason).

    6. I thought Moreno had his best game to-date. Adu was unimpressive for me (but I think that was the Rev's strategy--they're big, they try hard to put the body on him). I thought Adu giving up his body to gain possession and put the ball off to Guppy on Santino's goal was a big-time play, exactly the sort of thing that the Revs full body contact approach to Adu was designed to prevent through some intimidate/hearing footsteps. So kudos to young Mr. Adu on that play.

    7. Well, Dempsey's swing/celebration was technically a terrible swing. But that said, it was a good celebration off of a well-taken goal and showed good creativity on his part. And as much as I hate to see anyone score on United, Dempsey had a strong game, earned both his goal and worked hard to get his assist. I have no complaints with Dempsey (while Twellman OTOH was a punk for his push that led to a head injury. In an earlier day when McKinley or Aunger was on this team, young Mr. Twellman would have found himself receiving an elbow to the jaw when the refs were looking the other way or maybe a sucker punch).

    8. For those who argue "just sign a center back"--you're assuming that Nowak, Kasper, Payne have been doing nothing this offseason. We've had a bunch of trialists, more than never panned out (see: Vanney, Greg) and have looked for opportunities to improve this team on the backline. Furthermore, I don't think we have the money to sign a good veteran now (ie: someone other than A-league or waiver fodder) AND add someone during August transfer period. Now the concussion to Stokes and hamstring to Guppy may force the team to make a desperation move (especially if Namoff and Prideaux are still out for more than 1 game and Kenny Arena isn't fit and "in-form"). And I hope that isn't the case. B/c there are really 3 decent scenarios here:
    (a) Boswell and Stokes develop and we don't need anyone else. Possible.
    (b) We trade for a proven MLS talent on defense. Unlikely. We're not going to trade Dema or Quintanilla for a defensive savior. LA is playing unevenly and is thin on defense so I doubt Marshall is an option. KC may feel they need to make a move--so maybe they've got someone. Dallas is on easy street right now and might feel like they can afford to make a move. Chicago has depth on defense. But otherwise, all of the other MLS teams either are struggling defensively or have injuries or lack of depth and I don't see them giving up a player who helps us alot without us having to give up someone like Eskandarian or Gros. A stopgap would be something like Orlando Perez or Duncan Oughton (yes, I know he's out for the year)--guys who are veterans, wno't be expensive (to acquire or on the cap) and can play right now. But they aren't "answers" just temporary fill-ins. Unlikely--this is so unlike Peter Nowak. It happens only if Prideaux, Stokes, Namoff and Guppy are all out for at least the next 2 weeks.
    (c) we save our cap, roster and allocation to use in August (frustrating but a good fallback). We then get someone from outside of MLS (ala Christian Gomez). Likely I think.

    NE is mostly in-form right now. We aren't. We aren't strong enough defensively to adjust quickly to a mishap (like an injury) and we're still not finishing our chances well (b/c for my money, we were the better team, create more and better chances). I'm proud of how the team came back. I'm angry at the let-down/sloppiness that put us in a 3-0 hole in such a short-time.
     
  3. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: DC vs. NE 4/23 Official Post-Match Thread {R}

    I don't know which Revs fans made the trip down, but I'd like to apologize if any of them were jerks. I'm really sorry to hear that he tried to stir up trouble. Apparently, he didn't hear what happened last year when we were down there. Whoever he is ... Idiot, is about all I can say.

    Anyway, great and fun game to watch on TV. As usual, you guys did a wonderful job with the atmosphere in that stadium.

    I did have one question that (and I haven't read this entire thread yet) I can't get answered by watching the Tivo again. Late in the game, when I think it was Twellman and Demps that came down on a 2 on 2, the announcers were blasting the ref for not calling anything when Demps was pulled down. Was he pulled down? What happened there?

    BTW, if any of you are coming up here for the 14th, please PM me and let me know! You're more than welcome down to the Riders tailgate.
     
  4. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: DC vs. NE 4/23 Official Post-Match Thread {R}

    If you can't see it from the televised coverage, we probably can't help, since the view from the stands at RFK is rarely better. After every match, I try to watch the game at home to see all the stuff I couldn't see from the stands.

    Congrats on the win. I may be pretty damned angry at Twellman right now; but he's just one guy. After the Eastern Conference Championship last year, I decided I liked your team, and I still do. I'd rather we kicked your ass; but I'd also rather lose to you than to the Scum or Cowlumbus.
     
  5. Sundevil9

    Sundevil9 Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Reston, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: DC vs. NE 4/23 Official Post-Match Thread {R}


    Yeah, Tino totally molested Dempsey. About 30 yards out it started as a jersey tug, escalated into a Dempsey pulling Tino along, and then Tino was pushing down on Dempsey's shoulders until they both started to tumble to the top of the area. I thought that Tino would've been shown a yellow at some point.
     
  6. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Re: DC vs. NE 4/23 Official Post-Match Thread {R}

    Dempsy looked like an older brother pulling his little brother along. It was a pretty blatant foul.

    Sachin
     
  7. rugman

    rugman Member

    Oct 13, 2003
    Annapolis
    I guess I am the only Gros apologist for goal #3. That was a textbook 3 on 2. Nobody was moving towards Riley, he drew both defenders and Riley punished Gros by passing to Leonard, who buried it. I'm pissed at Gros for letting Dempsey beat him to the ball but I can not find blame in him doing his best playing out of position in an ugly situation.
     
  8. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Re: DC vs. NE 4/23 Official Post-Match Thread {R}

    I'm pretty sure he's a local. What I don't get is that he sat there and cheered his team quite peacefully until the game winning goal. I saw him several times cheering. Then he got up and starting talking smack to the skinheads which he REALLY didn't need to do. And then he started complaining to security when a couple of the kids came and sat with him.

    He probably isn't on BigSoccer, but if he is, I hope he gets the message.

    Sachin
     
  9. wyastarr

    wyastarr New Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Takoma Park, MD
    Classy. We're so much better than those European fans.
     
  10. Soccer Doc

    Soccer Doc Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Keene, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: DC vs. NE 4/23 Official Post-Match Thread {R}

    I must admit I'm a bit perplexed at all the anger at TnT. This guy like most MLS forwards takes a huge mugging game in and game out. rarely gets the call and I've never seen him retaliate. Here we have a case where he's engaged in a positional battle and there looks like he may have inadvertently clocked Stokes. If this was The Fish or some of the other League Forwards known for their aggressive play I could understand peoples pith but Twellman is not that kind of player. If he hurt Stokes it was an accident--pure and simple. Soccer is a contact sport, esp between Forwards and Defenders.

    To suggest that this is a case where Auger of Ivan the Terrable would have gone after and hurt Twellman is at best wrong and CRIMINAL and I feel strongly that there is no place in soccer for that kind of thuggery.
     
  11. dcu n bntwn

    dcu n bntwn Member

    Jun 7, 2004
    Watertown, MA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just another DCU fan that's frustrated with the performance, but trying to look at the big picture.

    The offenses of other MLS teams should be able to torch a back line consisting of our rookie central defender and Stokes. If they can not create chances against us, they should be ashamed. If MLS is truly a professional league and if its teams have better than amateur offensive skills, we should continue to get burned for goals.

    That being said, these games will hopefully be invaluable experience for our young players. Maybe this will translate to better defensive depth late in the season. This is little solace to us now. I especially feel for those that made it to the game in the inclimate conditions to watch DCU give up four goals. No professional team can win giving up 3-4 goals per game. Period.

    We all agree a defensive signing will be necessary to make a run late in the season. I am sure Novak and Co. realize this.

    Hopefully, we improve each week, make the playoffs and play our best soccer at the end of the season.

    Go DC.
     
  12. RTM1

    RTM1 New Member

    Jan 7, 2003
    Great Mills MD
    Re: DC vs. NE 4/23 Official Post-Match Thread {R}

    I was amazed that Q1 did not see yellow. However, I thought the ref did make the right call on the rest of the play. As I recall, Twellman got off a nice shot that went just wide of the far post. I thought the ref had gone with advantage and then would show the yellow when play stopped. He did not. Just another example of the ref's inconsistency for both sides.
     
  13. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 New Member

    Jan 27, 2002
    Falls Church, VA
    Random thoughts on the game:

    -First of all, I hope for a speedy recovery for Stokes, Eski, Guppy, Namoff and Prideaux.

    -It was good to see us fight back and try to get back into the game, but we can't count on PK's to get us there.

    -It was good to see Quaranta get a goal, hopefully he can bag a few more.

    -Every time I see Guppy put in a great cross I wish we still had Thiago Martins. Guppy puts in some beautiful crosses, but who here on out team is going to get up and finish them off?

    - Is it me, or is our offense slow. Seems by the time we're ready to shoot or Guppy puts in a cross, the Rev's whole midfield and defense was sitting in the box.
     
  14. URwormfood

    URwormfood Member

    Mar 24, 2004
    6 feet under: LOT 8
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I looked that way to me due to the rain/wet field...and the fact that after the 2nd Rev goal...they pulled back a bit...

    ~~Worm~~
     
  15. Sajuan

    Sajuan New Member

    Jun 23, 2003
    Central, PA
    Made it down to my first DC game this season on Saturday and I have a few comments/observations:

    1. Boswell does have potential but he is simply not the answer for us at this time. Considering our roster, I guess we are forced to ride it out but something needs to be done now. Stokes in the middle is my 1st thought.

    2. Olson has not impressed me this year. Seems like his passes are not as accurate as they had been and he is once again starting to act like a "cheap" player.

    3. Simms needs to be on the field.

    4. Where is Q2?

    5. Alecko needs to come off the bench until his fortune turns. It is not happening for him right now but perhaps sitting on the bench and watching the game will rekindle the fire.

    I wouldn't mind seeing the following run out next weekend:

    Rimando
    Gros Stokes Prideaux
    Q1 Gomez Simms Q2 Adu
    Moreno Walker

    I know I will certainly hear it since I have Stokes playing centrally but I think this is his 'natural' position and I truly do not believe he will be worse than Boswell.

    Unless Q2 is hurt, I feel he needs a clear chance to prove that he belongs. I have always liked is ability but questioned his speed. Playing centrally, with Simms as cover, he may be able to work well with Gomez.

    Walker's speed up front may open up the midfield and keep the opposing defense back a little further. Bring is Eski at half time for a different feel.

    Olson, Petke and Carroll need to sit. Carroll has not been that bad but Simms just looks like he has more to offer.

    Just my $.02 since it is still early enough in the season to improve and if Nowak is true to his words that all players on the roster are expected to contribute, then the fringe players time may have come.
     
  16. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    Re: DC vs. NE 4/23 Official Post-Match Thread {R}

    SoccerDoc, we can only speculate on Twellman's "intent." Nor did I say that Aunger or McKinley would try to hurt (ie: injure) Twellman had they been on the field. But surely you recognize that players retaliate for what they perceive to be dangerous play against their teammates. That happens all the time and while I don't like thugs, I also respect teams where teammates look out for each other.

    But let me say two things here about that play by Twellman, intentional or not.
    1. The easiest most common way to get someone other than the player you face to go after you--is to hurt or attempt to hurt or go after their goalkeeper when he's exposed. Simply put, either through intentional play or clumsiness, Twellman pushed a big player into a GK when both were exposed and vulnerable. Doesn't matter who you are, if other players see that it is probably the single mostly likely stunt that will invite retaliation.

    You can argue that Twellman (like other forwards) gets abuse. I don't disagree--Jaime Moreno has probably been the brunt of more abuse in his career than any other forward in MLS. My upset was that Twellman, intentionally or unintentionally, fouled Stokes and hurt him and also almost hurt Rimando and that had a big impact on the game. Maybe the Revs would have won anyway, but very clearly Stokes was clueless and not on the planet after that play and our defense collapsed.

    2. I don't like fouls and dirty play. I have less regard when they result in injuries that force players to come off. I have even less respect when they result in head injuries. David Stokes will probably be fine in a week, its probably "minor." But injuries caused by fouls are serious things.
     
  17. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    Losanjealous
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Weird game. Reminded me of the LA game last year when we gave up four goals in like twelve minutes (the last time I'd seen DC lose in person at RFK). Not surprising, though, that a team that's clicking offensively like NE is would net four on a night when our D looked as amateurish as Chivas USA's did when we played them.

    One question I haven't seen asked: Could Nick have done better on the first goal? Stokes didn't mark TT tightly enough, but the shot wasn't scorched, and Nick didn't seem particularly well-placed or quick in his reaction. When Doug Warren let in a goal like that last year against the Metros, it basically punctuated the end of his DCU career.

    When you consider how bad our defense has been, and that last year's breakout forward and leading scorer has been utterly useless so far, it's really no surprise that we're sucking as badly as we are. Jaime is doing his part, but no one else really it. Still, I think that as Alecko showed last year, he has far too much talent for this slump to last very long. As for the D, well, I hope they shape up, and soon.

    As counterintuitive as it may seem, I see us getting a result next week in KC. They've not looked particularly formidable this year, and I have a sense that Esky might finally break out of his slump, or that we'll see something special from Freddy. Just a rose-colored hunch.
     
  18. Renegade

    Renegade New Member

    Oct 20, 2000
    VA
    Guppy was great, and I'm not just saying that because I'm old. His crosses are excellent, and our defenders will start making runs in the box and scoring soon a la Nelsen.

    Keep up the good work Guppy, and all of us old guys are cheering for you.
     
  19. Sundevil9

    Sundevil9 Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Reston, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know that I'm in the minority, but I agree that Guppy brings more to the team than some people percieve. And that the team will soon learn how to take advantage of the potential that they've got sitting on the left wing.

    From the Post Game Quote Sheet

     
  20. dcu n bntwn

    dcu n bntwn Member

    Jun 7, 2004
    Watertown, MA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  21. spidergoose

    spidergoose Member

    Nov 2, 2004
    Annapolis
    Club:
    DC United
    I'm with you. It's not Guppy's problem that the team isn't used to working with someone with his skill set. You don't cut Joe Montana from your team just because his receivers are dropping the balls, you find someone on your team who will make the play.

    Personally, I see that person as Quaranta.

    It kills me to say this as much as I love Esky, but it's time for him to take a seat for the time being.
     
  22. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 New Member

    Jan 27, 2002
    Falls Church, VA
    Not a knock on Guppy - but - It's not only a matter of adjusting to a single player's skillset, it's picking up a player with a great skill set that doesn't quite match our standard game plan.

    I think that DCU brought in someone with great crossing ability, but doesn't have anyone who will take advantage of the high curling crosses that Guppy puts in.

    That hard, low cross to Quaranta was class, but most of Guppy's crosses seem to be the high, curling type that you see some huge striker heading into goal. A Brian Ching, Eddie Johnson, Brian McBride, or even Twellman type would be very happy with Guppy on the wing and score tons of goals.

    With Eski or Jamie, I don't see them putting many of those away. Quaranta may get to a few and we can't depend on our defense coming up that far, that often with the problems we are having in the back.

    Guppy puts in the quality crosses, we just don't have anyone to finish them off.... or at least we haven't seen anyone finish them off regularly this season - IMHO.

    Also, I think that with players like Moreno, Gomez and Adu, you play the ball to thier feet where they can control the game. Eski will finish a few headers, but basically you want Gomez or Jamie to control the ball, score or make the pass to Eski for the finish.

    Anyway... I could be wrong - it wouldn't be the first and won't be the last.
     
  23. dcu n bntwn

    dcu n bntwn Member

    Jun 7, 2004
    Watertown, MA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Interesting line up.

    I would think that this back line would get shelled. Does Gros have any real experience playing in the back? I could possibly see him playing out wide in a four man back line. He could make overlap runs like a Cafu, Roberto Carlos type back. Hard for me to see him starting in a back three. Also, who would anchor/lead/communicate in this back line? Based on recent communication/collisions with Rimando, it surely couldn't be Stokes.

    If Stokes is unable to go and Prideaux is healthy, maybe we see Petke-Boswell- Prideaux. If both Stokes and Prideaux are out, maybe they'll look to start one of the Barra or SE faithful ;) .

    It's hard to imagine that Qunitanilla would go straight from the pine to starting 11. However, I agree it would be nice to see him or even Nana get at least a litttle PT. I guess that is what the reserve games are for.

    Given that the next game is on the road, I suspect that Poitr will not make too many changes. So far, our road form has been much better than the beginning of last season. Hopefully, this will continue.
     
  24. JoeSoccerFan

    JoeSoccerFan Member+

    Aug 11, 2000
    It was colder on Sunday than it was in the rain on Saturday night - though perhaps the observation may be clouded based upon Saturday's tailgate!
     
  25. spidergoose

    spidergoose Member

    Nov 2, 2004
    Annapolis
    Club:
    DC United
    I'll see if I can find my boots. I think I still remember a thing or two from my U-10 days...
     

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