The "Do We Want Roy Back?" Thread

Discussion in 'Ireland' started by Don Homer, Nov 6, 2002.

  1. Don Homer

    Don Homer New Member

    Jun 2, 2002
    Dublin, Ireland
    Well, we've endured weeks of debating the pros and cons of Mick keeping his job, so lets now turn the spotlight onto the other party to this downturn in the performance of the Irish team.

    The question is should Roy come back into the team or not...


    Why he should...

    We need results and we're more likely to get them with him firing on all cylinders in the engine-room of the team. Everything else be damned!

    One of the best players we've ever had deserves a better exit than that tame defeat to Nigeria weeks before a WC he never got to play in.

    He's still hugely popular despite all thay went on.

    Anyway, we all are Man Utd crazy (right?) and Ireland succeeding without Roy in the team is no fun at all... ;)


    Why he shouldn't...

    He's hardly the innocent party in all that went on and many people feel badly let down by him and think he should not be welcomed back with open arms.

    He's hardly worked hard to keep sweet with the rest of the team. Fear and silence are not healthy things in a dressing-room.

    He's fallen out with the last two int. managers and will hardly fall over backwards to get on with a Johnny No-Name (relatively speaking), if thats who gets the job.

    He'll bring a media spotlight upon his return that will provide a big distraction ahead of crucial games. Is it perhaps time to remove all guilty parties to this affair from the scene and have a clean break from it all?

    Will he ever be 100% commited to Ireland again? If it came to protecting an increasingly sore body (two suss joint injuries now) for a CL q/final rather than risk travelling across Europe to play for a team unlikely to qualify for Portugal, what will he decide to do?

    Its his last campaign, in all probability. If the jig is up in terms of getting to Portugal, would we be better off blooding a team that will be used to playing without him by the time the 2006 qualifiers start? In rugby, the Aussies have no qualms dropping "names" who will not be around for the next World Cup, etc., in order to blood new players. Roy likes professionalism, he'd understand... :)



    Well, there are a few arguments for either side. Where does the general consensus lie?
     
  2. Nigel_Sausagepump

    Nigel_Sausagepump New Member

    Jul 22, 2002
    UK
    I think we need him back.

    I can't stand Man U, I think what he did in Saipain is and always will be inexcusable and I think that in the past he has shown less than 100% commitment to Ireland.

    However, Roy Keane giving it 75% is vastly preferable in my eyes to any of the other candidates we currently have in centre midfield. What disturbed me most in the Switzerland & Russia games match was the utter apathy displayed by Holland and Kinsella. Tackling was all but absent in midfield, save for Healy against the Swiss. Keane's game is built on ball winning and retention and that's where I think we miss him most. There were far too many gaping holes in front of our defence in both games - Keane's speciality is plugging those holes.

    Sure he might cry off for some games (ie the ones on a Saturday preceding a ManUre Champions League match), but he could be the difference between beating Russia at home and Switzerland away and us being eliminated.

    And I don't think Roy coming back prevents the new man blooding new talent. I think introducing Healy in centre mid alongside Keane is a viable prospect, as is starting O'Shea at the back. There are a number of players in the team who need a good kick up the arse and the combination of Keane's bollockings and healthy competition could be just what we need. Keane won't be around for the 2006 qualifiers, while Kinsella, Breen etc will be well past their best (if they aren't already). Its definitely a high risk strategy to blood new guys in competitive matches, but hey, we haven't got a whole lot to lose at this stage.
     
  3. e_k1

    e_k1 New Member

    Aug 12, 2002
    Germany
    Yes whether we want him back or not is one thing, but the fact is that we need him back. I would love it if he played onto the 2006 world cup, unlikely I know but perhaps with a new manager and setup he may change his mind.

    The argument for not bringing him back that it would allow younger players to develop does not make sense. Why would we want a younger player in there when we have the captain of Manchester Utd available? If there is one lesson to be learned from McCathy's reign it's that we must play our best players in their best positions.
     
  4. Football Ronin

    May 13, 2002
    Oregon, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Plus he is great to watch when he isn't blowing a gasket.
     
  5. Father Ted

    Father Ted BigSoccer Supporter

    Manchester United, Galway United, New York Red Bulls
    Nov 2, 2001
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    I think the new manager should get on the phone with Roy and ask him to come back but not half heartedly. None of this "no friendlies for me" crap. Tell him to be a leader on the team, help out with coaching, tactics etc.
    If he says no, stuff him.
     
  6. Motterman

    Motterman Member

    Jul 8, 2002
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Watch the Manchester United - Juventus match from their Treble season. You have a chance to get back Roy Keane on your team, you take it.
     
  7. Father Ted

    Father Ted BigSoccer Supporter

    Manchester United, Galway United, New York Red Bulls
    Nov 2, 2001
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
  8. Slash/ED

    Slash/ED New Member

    Apr 19, 2002
    Dublin
    I don't know if I want him or not, if the players want him then I want him. Given Holland and Kinsellas recent pathetic and all together complacent displays, we sure as hell need him.
     
  9. Leto

    Leto New Member

    Aug 23, 2001
    Donegal,Ireland
    We need him if he's ready to come back as part of the team - if he's gonna be screwing around and trying to dictate things to the manager again then we're better off without him. And this time it would be firmly his fault, he's had enough chances already. I have massive respect for him, both as a player and a person, but I'm losing patience with his "I'm not budging" attitude when he's supposedly so proud to play for us - if he is, then he should.
     
  10. WishyWashy

    WishyWashy New Member

    Aug 8, 2002
    The best thing about McCarthy's departure is that Keane HAS TO come back now, or else he'll lose most of the supporters that have backed him through all the mess of the last few months. McCarthy would not have been under as much pressure if Keane had not said that he'd love to play for Ireland again, but only if McCarthy goes. That comment was as responsible for McCarthy leaving as his poor handling of the Saipan incident or either of the lost Euro qualifers. It galvanised the Pro-Keane ranks into continuing the debate and ultimately the chant we heard at Landsdowne. If he doesn't come back now he will have let down all those who fanatically backed him despite his outburst and walkout.
    The ironic thing is, I believe, that Keane doesn't actually want to play for Ireland anymore and had been looking forward to his international retirement after the World Cup for some time. Let's not forget that he did inform the other players that he was quiting after Japorea BEFORE the infamous bust up. Now however, he will HAVE TO hook up with a squad of players he still hates - as poor Mark Kinsella found out on his family holiday in Portugal - and he'll have to play under a manager he will undoubted not rate or respect - which of the candidates will satisfy his high standards? - and all of this will be conducted under the full glare of the media.
    Poor old Roy may as well stick a fork up his arse for all the satisfaction he'll get out of his return to the fold!
     
  11. Pat Mustard

    Pat Mustard New Member

    Aug 12, 2002
    Ireland
    Spot on Washy

    McCarthy's departure this week has put Keane in a corner. He presumed McCarthy would stick it out until 2004 thereby avoiding the need for him to have to come back and face the rest of the squad most of whom he knows now despise him. How he could face Mark Kinsella after the abuse he handed out to Kinsella and his family in Portugal is beyond me.

    Washy is right about the fact that the post Japorea remarks by Keane on MUTV made McCarthy's position untenable as soon as we hit a bad patch (as most sides do after a major tournament).

    The problem for Keane now is that if he comes back he will have to be seen to toe the line with the new manager otherwise his specific criticisms about McCarthy will seem very hollow. If he comes back the new manager will, in order to ensure he has the respect of the other players, have to treat Keane no differently to all other squad members and Keane will have to accept it or else he'll be found out to be prima donna that he is. That means that Keane will have to:

    1. Arrive in Dublin on the Sunday before every game like all other players.
    2. Be available, when fit, for all friendlies except in exceptional circumstances.
    3. Share a room with another squad member, as all other players do.
    4. Eat his meals with the rest of the squad and not on his own in his room.

    Does anyone think that Keane will agree to do even one of the above, let alone all four? I don't. In fact Keane may just realise how easy life was for him under McCarthy who indulged him and this ultimately was the mistake McCarthy made and some thanks he got for it this great patriot.

    Don Givens was right when said tonite that we'll come to regret this week for a long time to come and he's right especially as it seems that Kinneer will get the job. Speaking on Eurosport during the summer he was critical of Ireland's tactics in the World Cup saying that we passed the ball too much and should have got it forward earlier. If he's appointed, we'll be the Wimbledon of international football again and the fine work of McCarthy and Brian Kerr will be down the drain.
     
  12. Don Homer

    Don Homer New Member

    Jun 2, 2002
    Dublin, Ireland
    General consensus is unsurprisingly in favour of his return. Unsurprising, as soccer is, after all, a "results business"...

    I do think expectations ought to be dampened a little though. We're on a tightrope now in terms of qualification and perhaps we are putting a man with a dodgey hip and knee up as our great salvation, while he is still out recuperating. He came back better than ever after the knee injury, but he's older now and the body can only take so much.

    Anyway, he got a great reception today in Cork and there are only moderate signs, in general, of any hostility towards his resoration to the international fold. I could live with it, but I'd wish he'd be man enough to say he regretted the way things happened in Saipan. Not because he necessarily believes it, but because its the decent thing to do and allows a line to be drawn under it.
     
  13. PaulGascoigne

    PaulGascoigne Member+

    Feb 5, 2001
    Aotearoa/NZ
    Wow, I thought this threat was going to be about Roy LASSITER. :/
     
  14. Don Homer

    Don Homer New Member

    Jun 2, 2002
    Dublin, Ireland

    The point I was suggesting was that if the rest of qualification does become a series of glorified friendlies, then future squads ought to be based on those likely to be playing in the 2006 qualifiers in order to get a headstart in terms of readiness. Will Roy Keane be one of those players? Probably not, but who knows...

    Plus, its not just the direct replacement I am talking about. Its ultimately getting used to performing without his huge presence in the side. That affects all the players on the team and will require new leaders to come forth.
     
  15. Cokane

    Cokane New Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    Derry, Ireland (Resi
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    What did Keane say about Kinsella and his family in Portugal??? I have never heard anything about this.

    We need Roy back and I hope that he is given a more important place in the team. He IS the captain of the biggest club in the world, he IS a tremendous leader and he IS Ireland's greatest ever player. I hope he is given more influence by the new man because every player can learn from Roy Keane.

    Hopefully the new manager will have the good sense to completely clear the air in the dressing room and consign what has gone on to the past. This is essential.

    He should then re-appoint Keane as captain and do his own job as manager of the team with constant consultation with his senior players (Keane, Holland, Cunningham et al)... if he does this properly then there will NOT be any problems and there will be no fudging of the major issues that directly affect the football team. If the new manager is a joker then I want Keane to tell us about it *again* - so that we know! and not just shut up and go with the flow. Let's not forget the reasons why the whole mess in Saipan kicked off - poor preperations - no one doubts this.

    Frankly, the FAI are the ones who must now come up trumps and appoint the right man for this job... if they appoint another fool who can't do this job I would prefer to know about it - being a paying supporter and all. No more amateurs taking care of professionals - get a professional man who will do the business, not just on the pitch but also behind the scenes. Then everyone will be happy and we won't have to argue about anything at all.
     
  16. e_k1

    e_k1 New Member

    Aug 12, 2002
    Germany
    If the rest of our euro qualifiers were meaningless then you are correct as Roy is highly unlikely to be around for 2006. However I believe we still have every chance of finishing in second spot. If we can win our next 2 games we will be on 6 points and ringht back in the running.
     
  17. e_k1

    e_k1 New Member

    Aug 12, 2002
    Germany
    Peter Reid? He's won league, cup and european medals at Everton and played for England. He was also regarded as one of the best midfielders of his generation and his style was similiar to Roy's. So Roy could not go round calling him a two bit player anyway!

    Having said that if Roy does come beck whoever the new man is will have to lay down the law upfront i.e. my way or stay away. As others have said having him back causing more disruption would be the worst case scenario.
     
  18. el hefe

    el hefe New Member

    Jul 30, 2000
    Not to oversimplify,but Keane's return would spell serious bench time for Kinsella anyway,I would think.Maybe not a huge problem.The larger issue may be the "English c**t" comment.

    In Saipan,when I was behind Mick,I admit,that was an unneeded kick in the balls.Roy may have brought up the grandfather clause that dare not speak its name,to his own international demise.Aside from some hacks and obnoxious--not to mention hypocritical-- posters like you know who,English- or wherever-born players have never felt as outsiders in the Ireland setup,to my knowledge.But this one insult could change all that,as someone else has posted.With that,Roy expanded the fight from Roy v Mick to Roy v Mick and half a dozen other players.

    Mick is gone,but the players remain.Assuming the famous "team spirit" has not withered,with his divisive comments,not only has Roy pissed off the English contingent,but the entire team.If McAteer's conciliatory noises are a barometer,then all may well be forgiven,if not forgotten.But even if not,it wouldnt be the first time players who hate each other off the pitch work together on the pitch for success and even glory(cue "Bridge Over the River Kwai" music--Alec Guiness!A great English actor with that name!Its fate!)

    C'mon.Its like a lover youve left but havent forgotten about.She calls,youre skeptical and stubborn.But by the time you hang up,the old juices are flowing and you somehow cant wait to see her again.It may end up sublime or ridiculous,but youve just got to do it.

    Dont kid yourself.Ireland have just got to do it.Forget about "building".With Keane in the middle,Duff out left,Morrison up front and dead wood like Kilbane and (hopefully)Breen gone,there is no reason Ireland couldnt take the Euros,with some luck.

    But first is the matter of qualifying.Ireland will not do it without him,does anyone doubt this?Keane is a prick,but hes Ireland's prick.So shove him up Europe's ass.
     
  19. Nigel_Sausagepump

    Nigel_Sausagepump New Member

    Jul 22, 2002
    UK
    The problem with Reid (if you see it as a problem) is that he's a big mate of McCarthy so Keane may see him as more of the same. Also, he laid into Keane as a BBC analyst over the Saipan saga, which may make Keane bitter towards him.

    Oh yeah, and he signed Kevin Kilbane!
     
  20. frankk

    frankk New Member

    Aug 29, 2002
    Dublin/Donegal
    keane never said that;
    mcCarthy said keane never said that;
    the Irish players present during the argument all say that keane never said that.

    the issue of nationality was never raised. irresponsible journalism to be blamed for publishing unfounded comments. unfortunately is was still being peddled in yesterdays daily telegraph (right wing tory rag)
     
  21. Cokane

    Cokane New Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    Derry, Ireland (Resi
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    I agree. This shouldn't even be brought up anymore.
     
  22. Nigel_Sausagepump

    Nigel_Sausagepump New Member

    Jul 22, 2002
    UK
    True,
    But unfortunately a fair number of British journalists are using it as a stick with which to beat the FAI, Keane and the Ireland setup.

    If anti-English sentiment was as pervasive as the crypto-racist likes of the Torygraph and the Daily Wail would like their readers to believe, I think we'd be a complete footballing backwater.
     
  23. Leto

    Leto New Member

    Aug 23, 2001
    Donegal,Ireland
    What happened between him and Kinsella?
     
  24. WishyWashy

    WishyWashy New Member

    Aug 8, 2002
    Keane to Kinsella

    On family holidays they happened to bump into each other. Keane spotted Kinsella and made a move away, Kinsella noticing this took it upon himself to go over to him, saying something along the lines of 'look Roy a lot has happened but I hope there is no bad feeling between us' and offered the hand of friendship. Roy of course, even in front of his own kids (at least one) launched into a diatribe of foul and abusive language, the type than he has become accustomed to using when someone disagrees with him, his manager asks about an interview he gave to The Times, a referee books him for a late foul or he meets a young lady outside a 'chipper' in Cork. Kinsella would be one of the most mild mannered of the squad and I cannot remember a single anti-Roy quote from him during or after the Saipan affair. If this is what Keane thinks of him, what chance have we of getting him to 'muck in' with the rest of them?
     
  25. Cokane

    Cokane New Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    Derry, Ireland (Resi
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    I didn't hear anything about this and as a result I would question the integrity of it...
     

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