One of the main advantages of Europe over MLS is environment. The environment there is still significantly better than it is here. Likewise, the proximity is better there too. It’s why we are still struggling to catch up with many of the top nations even though we have more youth soccer players playing the sport than the entire population of some of these countries (or close to it). That said, MLS has an advantage in regards to potential, money, and exposure. Apple TV and other media channels really gives MLS a lifeline and ability to eventually exceed its European competitors. Likewise, we have the ownership groups that could spend competitively with the best clubs in the world. But we need to invest more in youth development, scouting, and coaching. That’s where we seem to be investing. Unfortunately it just seems like a SLOW process.
It's a slow process but our youth teams, even at U17s are comprised of players at professional clubs, as opposed to schools or pay to play academies. We're still really in the first decade for most MLS clubs but the infrastructure is in place and we're really seeing the benefits at least in MLS. If you look at Seattle's squad yesterday they had 7 players from Washington, 3 from California, 2 from Nevada, 1 from Alaska and 1 from Hawaii. That's real progress. NYC's second team got to the last 16 of the Open Cup with a bunch of teenagers and were holding their own against New Mexico until they got a red card. But wherever you look around MLS there are teens getting regular starts, which didn't happen when I started watching MLS in 2014. It still hasn't translated on the international stage, other than regularly beating up Mexico and qualifying for the Olympics but I'm confident it will.
What exactly do we mean by "environment?" Is this just a general statement or is it more referring to the big clubs? Not every club has great coaching, nor great support structures in place. It takes time to develop players. What age group do you start at? How does a club build out its' academy? What are the goals of said academy? Both short and long term? This isn't a stadium. Simply spending a boatload of money isn't going to suddenly pop out a world class development pipeline. That's just not how this works. There are other factors as well. For starters there's the cultural idea here in the US of College being the end goal for parents for their kids. That's a competing interest. Then there are all of the pay to play clubs across this nation of ours. Like them or not, they still have a very large influence over the game here. It's only going to continue as well considering that more and more European, Mexican, South American, etc. Clubs are opening pay to play academies here in the US too. What does the pathway look like? How do we get promising Academy players to develop into professional players? After USL and MLS couldn't agree on a mutually beneficial path forward together, MLS went and created NeXT Pro in order to get its' academy and young players more meaningful games. How does USL approach the pathway for its' academy players (for those handful of teams that have academies)? What's their in between step from academy to USL-C? Currently MLS doesn't have a step between NeXT Pro and MLS. All of these steps take time, money, and buy in from the stakeholders. This isn't something that can be put into a microwave and then 2 minutes later it's hot and ready. It's also something that can't be forced upon teams either. Some teams just aren't going to be as dedicated or interested in spending millions of dollars a year on youth development and that's okay. Look around the world. Not every club runs a youth academy, hell not every club that does is highly successful at it. Ajax, La Masia, Benfica, Sporting Lisbon, Red Bull Salzburg, etc. didn't just happen over night. Those academies took decades to build, and show consistent, repeatable results. MLS has made a lot of mistakes since its' founding (and that's understating it). The league faced an uphill battle for its' first 10-15 years of existence (a good portion of that was self inflicted). That first 10ish years of the league was about survival. The league's best academies have really only been at this for the past 10-15 years, of which the first 5 years there wasn't a clear pro-pathway with incremental steps (pro teams at lower levels). At the end of the day, this is a long process. It takes time, dedication, commitment, resources, etc. IMO, if a team doesn't isn't willing to do the above, they shouldn't be forced to run a youth academy. This isn't something that can be half assed.
European academies at the top clubs are more competitive but the attrition rate is massive. It's a thousand in - one or two out scenario. And they don't really care about the 999 that fail. Most don't go on to professional careers at other levels. Kids spend most of their childhood, from 7 to 16 years-old, being groomed (excuse the word) to become a pro footballer, then at 15, 16, 17 or 18 years-old they're cut. It's devastating. Those that survive are the best of the best, the dropouts tend to drift away from the game. In the US we're always going to have a much smaller pipeline because most kids are steered towards other sports. On the other hand, if you are cut at some point it doesn't feel like the end of your life because there's college. You get a second chance and an education to boot. So they're different. But we definitely have a pipeline in the US at least for the chosen few. Junior affiliates -> MLS Next -> MLS Next Pro (or college) -> MLS. Just week we saw NYC II and a bunch of MLS teams starting teenage home-grown players against experienced USL Championship rosters. Then we saw Seattle put out a MLS roster with 14 west coast natives at St Louis and win. Saul Goodman.
Wright's journey is a real weird one. He was hyped as the best US prospect around on that U17 team that was so damn good in '14-'15 w/Pulisic, he was initially the star of it. He was the one people were scouting. He didn't want to get stuck in MLS, he definitely wanted to get to Europe as soon as possible which is why he left for the Cosmos. What happened at Schalke? Someone, maybe Morocco, or shredder knows best, someone with inside stuff. Superficially he looked very good with Schalke coming up. The production was there, what bothers me is why the team wasn't sold, and why Tab wasn't interested for the U20 WC. WHY? He scored 3 goals in 300 minutes in '15-'16. He had 24 goal contributions in 2250 minutes in '16-'17....Why was no one at the US interested and why was Schalke skeptical? We know things went sideways after that great '16-'17 season, '17-'18 was a total debacle after being sent to Sandhausen (why?), then demoted he produced 20 goal contributions in '18-'19 in 1650 minutes but again it didn't matter, they sent him over to VVV for '19-'20 and that was another trip to the toilet. What the hell happened those three seasons? '17-'18, '18-'19, '19-'20? Was it an age thing, was it a him thing, was it just the growing pains that afflict striker prospects before they typically break out (often between 21 and 24? He was only 18/19, 19/20, and 20/21 in those 3 disappointing seasons. Then in the middle of covid he finds his way to Denmark and it all clicks, and its been clicking ever since, August 2020. Why? I don't know what the hell happened, I don't think there's an MLS vs Europe lesson in it though, I think there's a story about a person, and a story about the difficulties that come with being a person and playing striker. But now I'm just getting sentimental, so I'll stop.
Because you guys don't even read what I write. I provided data all last cycle and it was ignored. I talked about process of building a team and the importance of caps and the big thinkers on here will say "name a player who should have made a roster" which isn't even close to my point. What is vague and broad about the Americans in MLS shouldn't be on the national team? It has yet to prove it is actually good at developing players (a few franchises have created a track record up to a point, but even the Dallas and philly's haven't progressed players as they move into early 20s). There are many factors embedded in it related to structure of rosters and how they are created, roles players get to play, style of play, etc.
Nice coming from guy who never really engages in real discussion. I view MLS track record as Pope and Donovan and the rest are mostly losses or irrelevant. Based on how you guys claim guys for MLS, not sure why Donovan isn't attributed to Yurp. He spent more time in academies before coming to MLS than many passing through MLS academies and went back for a few months throughout his career. So while folks like you act like you, and Ross guy who clearly doesn't know anything about this and probably other sports, act like MLS is some safe option and going abroad is some irrational decision that is based on fantasizing about some mythical place which you call Yurp, MLS has actually destroyed careers while Croatia is known and respected around the world for developing players and Split specifically. Based on all those losses MLS has taken with their 2 wins, a win at any other place would give it a better track record than MLS. Why did you go after me and not Ross? Are you as ignorant as him to not realize we have a young American doing very well there right now? Not some obscure kid but a a youth national team player that isn't unreasonable to think someone posting in a USMNT forum might be familiar. In addition to Pukstas and the kid looking to go there, pretty sure there is an another American kid that has been there and likely to be signing. Of the 2004 field players on the last u20 team, it looks like the one that has progressed the best did so at Split and MLS quite the mixed bag. 20 MF Rokas Pukštas 25 August 2004 (aged 18) Hajduk Split 1 GK Gabriel Slonina 15 May 2004 (aged 19) Chelsea 12 GK Antonio Carrera 15 March 2004 (aged 19) FC Dallas 7 FW Quinn Sullivan 27 March 2004 (aged 19) Philadelphia Union 5 DF Brandan Craig 7 April 2004 (aged 19) Philadelphia Union 19 FW Darren Yapi 19 November 2004 (aged 18) Colorado Rapids 3 DF Caleb Wiley 22 December 2004 (aged 18) Atlanta United FC 16 MF Owen Wolff 30 December 2004 (aged 18) Austin FC
I've never seen you use data in any way that was convincing. Can you point us to some of your data supported analysis? I also don't think that is what Adam thinks.
Do you form opinions about things you know nothing about in real life or is that just your internet MO? In this situation, it isnt just your lack of awareness of the specific club in Croatia, but how you define step down. What ever you are considering in this comparison, id bet it areas you believe MLS is excelling. MLS desperately needs more fans like you.
My views on MLS for GKs is very different than field players. It has shown it can be a decent spot for American GKs, but it is all about specific situation and some very important pros and cons. The structural make up of the league actually is conducive to them having opportunities to play (this looks to be changing as some franchises are starting to pay more and more for GKs) and face the stars the league has thrown massive money at to paper over the quality issues of play. It isnt MLS though, it is the franchises that aren't willing to pay for the likes of Burki or Jamaican guy. So that means there might be a way to get minutes and face some individual talents. The cons are many that any kid should think through carefully. The biggest problem is there is no pressure. Fans don't care if you make a mistake and weaknesses can be hidden. I am sure the poor defending has some impact but have no idea whether positive, negative or both (not something I have spent any time thinking about). I tried pointing out Turners weaknesses when every MLS was trying convince everyone he was the best in the world. I had Revs fans tell me I was wrong when pointing out specific plays where his weaknesses led to goals. The expectation are very different and much lower in MLS. Turner is poor with his feet and coming off his line. He has made improvements on both but will never improve to the level he needs to be a top GK with his feet. The psychological aspect of GK is huge and not sure waiting to start dealing with the fan and coaching pressures until down the road is a good choice. I can see an argument where reducing those pressures at a young age to allow him to focus on his game without the pressure and ups/downs might be beneficial, but not sure how long.
Nah, interesting fact in passing but ultimately I’ll never care about Croatian clubs enough to spend time directing validation or invalidation their way.
I dont think it is that complicated. I have no idea what happened with each club, but understanding how US soccer works, his abilities as a player, and how some clubs act, I am not surprised by the path he took the path he did. The starting place is a need to understand that american players are nothing like the hype that surrounds them. There is rarely any depth to it and doesn't tell anything about the player. What I recall, is everyone was saying Haji was THE star and what I saw was a bug athletic kid (should be a warning sign) who had decent technical ability. He ran past smaller less physical players but didn't show a good tactical understanding of the game. He has a fairly quiet personality and it shows up in his body language. From a distance, I can't hold it against him, but I could see someone dealing with him to see it as off putting or there is actually something else there. So some very good tools but far from a complete player. Dortmund was the first signal that he wasnt what people were making him out to be. They watched him and completely passed. They decided he wasn't even worth working with. My guess is that over time Shalke and other clubs in Germany just thought his weaknesses weren't worth the effort. Denmark is very much under rated by the MLS crowd. They play a very tactical style and have a great track record of developing players. I would guess they worked with on some key areas where those weaknesses didn't hurt his game so much. The best spot for Haji probably had nothing to do with how people on here discuss it. It was about him finding a place that understood his strengths and weaknesses and wanted to work with him. For a player like him, I think style of play is extremely important for him to excel and/or develop. My guess is the Germans just didn't rate the player, Denmark was a challenge at a lower level to work on his game, and the Champioship is the perfect style for him to succeed.
Are they any better? Which one is it? Is MLS great at development and kids are crazy for leaving or are they really just getting started and have a ways to go? I hear both on here regularly. Why should it translate to the international side? Thise players have nothing to do with the national team. MLS players aren't good enough for the USMNT. It is pretty obvious that MLS aren't good at developing players.
First off, if you guys don't like the generalization that European soccer is a homogenous place then stop doing it with MLS. You guys talk in general terms about MLS and then someone talks about Europe in the same way as response and you guys freak out. No idea what Adam was getting at but can easily guess. No idea why you respond like you have no clue what he is talking about. I am going to just focus on one key point. Soccer is a sport around the world, but MLS is entertainment to small group of people. Sports grab peoples attention and how their team does matters greatly to them. MLS is all about trying to create a spectacle for families to go to. If you listen to MLS fans , they will say things like "it is just a game". Where famous footballers would say something like... "Some people believe football is a matter of life and death. I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that.” I'd say the attitude surrounding these two are very different and create very different environments. Anyone who has player any kind of sports should recognize differences and impacts.
According to this, MLS is #7 in the world for attendance, and one of those is BL 2, so I think that yeah, a lot of people care about it. Unless only 5 nations in the world aren’t also followed by small groups.
According to what? The stat you just wrote? Thats your conclusion? Seems like you found the one stat that supports whatever silly point you are trying to make. No clue who you are responding to or what your argument even is. Having been in MLS stadiums a number of times, I wouldn't take MLS attendance numbers to mean anything. A large percentage of the people in the stadium could care less about the game. A majority of the supporters are there to tailgate, hang out with friends, and sing and dance with little regard for the actual game. Everyone knows the published attendance isn't the number of people who show up, but the number of tickets sold, which is probably manipulated a bit as well. The number of people who have tickets and don't show up isn't negligible and probably the largest in all sports and entertainment. The TV numbers are pathetic. I guess there isnt interest without the tailgate and making believe they are ultras.
Who changed their mind and why? I see no reason whatsoever to not have the stance that as a generalization, getting to Europe as soon as possible would be the best for an American soccer players career. How many Americans have waited to the point and succeeded? How many have failed? For the few that have succeeded, how do we know they wouldn't be better off if they had gone earlier. I suspect these are MLS fans that made this type of claim after adams and aaronson were the rare case of a team doing a good job with a kid. How can anybody make that statement when the majority of the teams in the league have any success developing a player for that level.
As far as association football leagues go MLS is: 5th - total attendance 7th - average attendance 6th - revenue 6th - revenue per team 9th - revenue per match 6th - domestic TV contract revenue 6th - average and median team payrolls 2nd - number teams in Forbes top 30 The Saudi Pro isn't included in those numbers.
Beyond the obvious over-achievers who attracted European attention in their early teens, thanks to raw talent, what examples do you have that going to Europe at an early age is better for players than staying in MLS? Give 5 or 6 solid examples. I promise I won't mention Freddy Adu as anything before let's say 2015, is pretty irrelevant, as MLS didn't have the infrastructure or focus on youth development it has today.
Did you guys put these out because it made feel better about the league you worship? It seems like you don't want to talk about how poor the Americans in MLS really are. BTW, don't trust any of those numbers.
So MLS starts acting like they want to develop soccer players and you think it is the job of someone else to prove they aren't good at it? It is usually the new entity that needs to prove they are as good as or better than established ones, instead of the other way around. First off, you shouldn't be talking about anything MLS prior to that time. Secondly, don't blame me or wave your hands that MLS didn't focus on developing players for a long, long time. Not sure itmis accurate to even say MLS is focused on it now. I may end up responding to your ridiculous request, but don't intend to at this point. Now back to the first paragraph. So you want me to explain how an unathletic, fat kid and no skill would be better off in Europe? Why would I care? If all our top teenagers went abroad and the national team didn't force poor MLS players into the national team, id probably not think about nor have the angst toward the league I do. I finally saw the part about "raw talent". Yeah, that is why they made it.