The training center is a fundamental component of a competent club. The status quo has been a competitive and psychological shortcoming of the organization. As solid as the new center will be, it will put the Fire on equal footing with other teams in the league, not ahead of the pack. A very good thing that should be a given. It points to how low expectations have been for years that there is excitement that the Fire are now gonna be in a similar position as most of the rest of the league.
Good point. We should recognize that many of these actions are only going to bring the Fire up to “league normal”. They do not correct the player acquisition and coaching shortcomings.
Well, the premise of this thread is that nothing's changed since Joe took over from Andrew. And while that’s unfortunately true of the results on the field, I don’t believe it’s true overall. Getting up to “league normal” is a monumental step. If any of these improvements are better than “league normal” then all the better. Assessing 450 academy youth might sound high but be low. Of course, the opposite might be true as well.
Not that anyone would disagree with this, but being able to get to "league normal" with a training center and also sign/coach/play to an MLS average level (aka playoff caliber) are not mutually exclusive activities. If any of us went for our annual reviews and made the argument that we did 50% of our job really well, none of us would still work there. At some point, Mansueto will have to reconcile his affinity for Heitz with the results on the field. Until then, the Fire will lose games, fans and interest.
Not if you work in a multi-year project and every year you have to defend your progress. Saying we did 50% of the job really well is probably sufficient. I suspect Heitz could defend his progress on this multiple year project. I (and most of us) may not agree, but that is my suspicion. All of us agree the results are not there, most of us agree that the on field progress is not there. However, some of us (Bunge in particular) are taking a larger perspective. My perspective is that I suspect Heitz is doing some good work. I just cannot see Joe M putting up with the failure on the field without a "master plan." The thing is, we haven't been told what the plan is going forward. I think if Joe and Heitz held a press conference unveiling a, say, three-year plan to compete at the top level, it would probably placate a bunch of us.
From a "metrics" point of view, the results on the field might actually be improving. I don't see all the numbers but if we were to plot out a team's performance it's very possible we're on the way up. If we were to view things as a bell curve, when Joe took over ~4 years ago we were probably still trending downward. We were already not a playoff contending team but still getting worse. Two years later we bottom out, not as a playoff contending team. Two years since then perhaps we're trending upwards but still not as a playoff contending team. The metrics might very well show this (I have no idea) and this is what Joe would perceive and act on. The Won/Loss is all we get to see and that sucks across that entire spectrum. My theory is probably meant for the Hopium thread though....
Lots of good thoughts. Would not placate me. Improved results needed. Let me add 1) a three-year plan could have been announced three years ago and be complete by now. No progress at all in crucial areas. 2) a business that fails completely in it’s most crucial area is likely to fail despite competency in auxiliary sectors. Even if the Fire improve in some of the areas mentioned, they will continue to grossly underperform unless they fix the player acquisition and coaching problems.
@schroncar 1) Yes, that was part of my comment. My largest frustration, besides the suckitude on the field, is the lack of information about what they are trying to do. Thanks for clarifying. 2) I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this statement.
I gotta ask: Why do you do that? We can all see who is posting, and last I checked, it ain't 1997 any more. That said, I agree that their plan was: Step 1. Move to NSF, Step 2. ??? Step 3. Profit!
it is, and perhaps Heitz is good at doing it (I don’t know the org structure) but it seems ludicrous to me that his (supposed) success here merits any continued responsibilities in roster decisions they are so entirely different that it’s truly boggling if Heitz’s continued employment as head roster guy is at all being justified by his work on a training center what other teams think this way??
‘Crucial areas’ is in the eye of the beholder…attendance and revenue are up, sister club acquired and integrated, significant money made via sell-ons (not just Gaga and Duran), roles added to the organization, rancid culture ousted, etc. Lots of meaningful progress… First team ‘Results’ is the single most visible and passionate metric, but it is also nuanced. For example, we started the season on the road against ‘the top of the east’ and played better than everyone expected…but lost points to goals scored in the 99th and 112th minutes. We have only lost two games ‘badly’, every other game has been close…close enough that it has come down to 1 or 2 stupid things. And it’s so easy to hindsight assess the poor performance of Shaq, Jairo and Kacper…Acosta?…all were cheered by most when signed. Injuries have hurt us too (Jairo, Kacper, Gimenez, Fede, Mueller, Gutman, Salquist…luckily? Not Shaq). The XI rotation has been significant! These are not ‘excuses’ to justify keeping this group together, but it is pragmatically descriptive of what could also be considered a decent amount of ‘bad luck’. It’s easy to play the ‘angry Alf’ game…spewing and calling for heads… It’s reasonable for supporters to expect Joe and Georg will not sit on their hands…they haven’t yet…changes (intended to improve the club) will very likely come in the summer window. P.S. curious why there is no vitriol pointed at the separatist leaders of certain supporters groups…the mess there is as (or maybe even more) disappointing.
Crucial is in the eye of the beholder…and an overwhelming majority view poor results for years as a crucial failing. “Nuanced” does not excuse year after year of poor results. Speaking of excuses, neither does bad luck. Fans cheering PR announcements about players does not signify anything other than relief that something happened, not that it was a smart move! I did not know that supporter group leaders did player acquisition function for the Fire!
There's a big difference between Fans and Supporters... Beyond "having to overpay to get players to come here", which player acquisitions do you think were obviously "wrong" at the time we signed them?
Are you talking to me? I do not believe I said anything about overpriced players in my last post. Go pick a fight with someone else.
126 different clubs. 956 prospective players. 1 @CHIFireAcademy. 🤯Read the story of the @ChicagoFire Discovery Centers, and how they are shaping the future of soccer in Chicago.Had a lot of fun with this one. ✍️ #cf97https://t.co/yt88WfZQVG— Rudy Hodgson (@rudyhodgson33) May 23, 2024
“They will be recognized in an official signing ceremony on Saturday, May 18 at Soldier Field ahead of the First Team’s match against the Columbus Crew.”
If you have not already done this, you should look at the MLS Team Spending spreadsheet posted May 16 w/ recent update at @MLS_Box2Box. Not really expecting it will change your mind but it is a good information source for those on the other side of the discussion.
But that does not answer the question. Here is the quote that prompted my response: "Beyond "having to overpay to get players to come here", which player acquisitions do you think were obviously "wrong" at the time we signed them?" Months ago, I showed what we paid for some of our more expensive players and what their estimated values were. There is no evidence that we have had to "overpay to get players to come here." That does not mean we have spent money wisely, but it does refute the narrative about "overpaying." Once again, if there is evidence of it, somebody should show it. That was my inquiry. There are so many problems with this team, from top to bottom, that we do not need to invent more.
I believe you used Transfermarkt to justify a group of acquisitions you selected. As I said earlier, Transfermarkt records actual data quite accurately but it’s record relating to market value estimates is not too good. The referenced spreadsheet and other data clearly show that team performance greatly lags player expenditures. The gap is so severe that it is very likely several factors are responsible. Inability to judge player soccer skills leads to overpaying for players, Overpaying leads to inadequate depth and increases pressure to buy players that do not fit. Coaching has not been good enough to overcome these problems. Overpaying is part of the problem in my opinion. I agree there is no reason to invent problems but there is also no reason to deny an existing problem. We just disagree on this issue.
FWIW, I didn’t invent the topic (needing to pay more to come here vs LA, NY, winning teams)…it makes general sense. Not that ‘Heitz is ignorantly paying too much’, but the players requiring ‘more’ to come to a depressed club.