Benzema, two seasons before joining Real Madrid had scored 39% of the goals he didn't create at Lyon. So he arrived at Real Madrid along with Kaká and Ronaldo and guess what happened? His % dropped to 20%. Why? Because Ronaldo put himself in better conditions to finish. Although in theory this was Benzema's role since Ronaldo was a winger and Benzema was a Center forward. Probably the same would happen to the "goal scorer" Maradona if he joined at Real Madrid in the same season.
It's the same, the level of teams wouldn't drastically change from one year to another. And I suppose you understand that this is an approximate way to gauge how good the teams were. It's likely that Brazilian teams were equally or even better than Argentine in the 1960s-1980s, even though Argentine teams won more Libertadores. The "level" of Argentine teams was just as good during the time Maradona played compared to 10 years prior.
Argentine teams do amazingly well in the period before maradona Between 1978-1983 they win the copa Libertadores once in 6 seasons Maradona was present in all but two of those seasons Between 1984 and 1986 they win 3 consecutive Copas including one for maradonas ex team If anything that shows the Argentine division was at its lowest point during Maradonas scoring prime
I agree but, when I say it's overrated, I don't mean to say it is non-existent, I mean to say it's overrated. If two players have the same xG, they will both end up with almost the same number of goals. Although, if well, it is possible that Lewandowski knows how to create opportunities for himself, I do not see it as something so decisive. Are we sure that De Bruyne would be so bad at doing that job? I believe that the majority of top-level players would generate very similar results.
Yes, probably. Maradona, being a more complete player who can assume other roles, would allow Cristiano to be the main goal scorer of the team. However, that does not mean that both Maradona or Benzema lack the ability to generate goals like Cristiano does. Perhaps Cristiano is better, but only by a small margin. Maradona: "Defensor absoluto de Benzema" pic.twitter.com/3pYZRZrwDc— Luciano Cracogna (@Cracogna_L) August 1, 2021
I think "create opportunities for himself" were what R9 did. Maybe you didn't understand what I said. You said "if two players have the same xG". But that's the point. Having a high xG number means that the finisher has put himself in an excellent position to receive the pass and finish. And yes, this is very difficult. Only the best finishers have such a good sense of positioning. Why do you think Mandzukič or Mario Gomez didn't score as many goals as Lewandowski despite playing for an equally dominant Bayern? The fact that Lewandowski has a high xG is not just because the team produced more chances for him. But also because he put himself in better conditions to finish. There is a debate in american football about whether it is the wide receiver who improves the quarterback or the quarterback who improves the wide receiver. He puts himself in a more favorable position to receive the pass so that the pass looks easy. Again, this is a result of his excellent reading of the game, movement off the ball, timing, positioning, passing control and finishing ability.
I do believe what you're saying is correct, but I also think you're exaggerating it. While it's true that Lewandowski can increase his xG by positioning himself correctly, etc., he is still heavily dependent on having a good team that generates that number of opportunities for him. Lewandowski playing for a different team would not generate the same number of goals, he is not "independent"; he depends on the team. For example, if you exchange players and have the forward from Elche play for Bayern Munich, and Lewandowski play for Elche, I have no doubt that Lewandowski would have fewer goals than that player. Essentially, a mediocre goalscorer playing in a super team will have more goals than an excellent goalscorer playing in a mediocre team. Another point is that there are players who "focus" on a particular task. For example, it is no coincidence that Haaland is the player with the most goals per 90 minutes and also has the lowest numbers in all other statistics. Is Haaland truly a better scorer than the rest, or is he simply the one who focuses the most on that aspect? For instance, Agüero has more passes, key passes, dribbles, and defensive actions. It's not that one is a better scorer than the other, but rather that the difference largely stems from the fact that they are players with different characteristics and contribute to the team in other ways.
Of course, he isn't independent of the team. But my point was to counter yours that any player who took Haaland's role at City would score just as many goals as he did. (De Bruyne for example). City can create the same number of chances but Haaland knows how to be in the right place at the right moment in a way that KDB simply wouldn't. KDB's specialty is creating plays through passes. Haaland's specialty is tactical awareness, positioning, etc... What we cannot do is overvalue the game reading to make the pass and undervalue the game reading to receive the pass. The two skills are equivalent
left foot Cristiano Ronaldo left goals for Real Madrid 80 https://www.messivsronaldo.app/club-stats/messi-vs-ronaldo-in-spain/ Diego maradona non penalty goals for Napoli 74 Goals from outside the box since 2009/10 Cristiano Ronaldo 73 https://www.whoscored.com/Players/5583/Show/Cristiano-Ronaldo Karim Benzema 16 https://www.whoscored.com/Players/14296/History/Karim-Benzema
Peak goal scoring maradona at Barcelona Season prior to his arrival Barcelona in La liga 1981/82 Scored 75 goals Finished 2nd https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981–82_La_Liga Barcelona with Maradona Barcelona in La Liga 1982/83 Scored 60 goals Finished 4th https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982–83_La_Liga Barcelona in la liga 1983/84 Scored 62 goals Finished 3rd https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983–84_La_Liga Season after he leaves Barcelona in La Liga 1984/85 69 goals Finished 1st https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_La_Liga
Great, I think my difference with you is that you give it a 50/50 merit and consider them equivalent, whereas for me the relationship is more of a 90/10, where the player has his influence, but in reality, it's mostly the team. Although it actually depends on each specific play, there are goals where the scorer clearly deserves 90% of the credit, while in other plays, their contribution may be just 1%. I'm not only talking about the final pass before the goal, but the entire preceding play determines the goal. A pre-assist can hold more value than the assist itself or even the goal. I believe that in the vast majority of goals, the overall credit goes to the team for about 90%.
I've said it before here and I'll say it again. The scorer making a run is using his vision to read the game, timing to create the opportunity and skills to control the pass. Why is the passer automatically doing more? Without creative and skillful off the ball movement there would be no pass to begin with. The average football spectator tends to overvalue the player who makes the pass and undervalues the player who receives the pass
Contribution towards major team titles Champions league/European Cup UEFA Cup Domestic league Cristiano Ronaldo at Real Madrid Champions league 2013/14 17 goals+5 assists 2 penalties 41 team goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cri...sdaten/spieler/8198/saison/2013/wettbewerb/CL Champions league 2015/16 16 goals+4 assists 2 penalties 28 team goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler/8198/plus/0?saison=2015 Champions league 2016/17 12 goals+6 assists 0 penalties 36 team goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler/8198/plus/0?saison=2016 Champions league 2017/18 15 goals+3 assists 4 penalties 33 team goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler/8198/plus/0?saison=2017 La Liga 2011/12 46 goals+12 assists 12 penalties 121 team goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler/8198/plus/0?saison=2011 La Liga 2016/17 25 goals+6 assists 6 penalties 106 team goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler/8198/plus/0?saison=2016 Cristiano Ronaldo in Major trophy winning campaigns for Real Madrid 131 goals+36 assists 26 penalties 365 team goals 46% direct goal contribution with penalties 39% direct goal contribution without penalties Diego Maradona at Napoli UEFA Cup 1988/89 3 goals+8 assists 3 penalties 18 team goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego- maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1988 Serie A 1986/87 10 goals+4 assists 3 penalties 41 team goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/die...daten/spieler/8024/saison/1986/wettbewerb/IT1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986–87_Serie_A Serie A 1989/90 16 goals+10 assists 7 penalties 57 team goals https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989–90_Serie_A https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1989 Diego Maradona in major trophy winning campaigns for Napoli 29 goals+22 assists 13 penalties 116 team goals 44% direct goal contribution with penalties 33% direct goal contribution without penalties Facts 1.)Ronaldo at Madrid won 2x the amount of major titles as Diego Maradona at Napoli(6 vs 3) 2.)Ronaldos madrid scored over 3x as many goals as Maradonas Napoli in those major trophy winning campaigns(365 vs 116) 3.)Ronaldo was more important to Real Madrid’s success than Diego Maradona was to Napoli’s(39% non penalty contribution for Ronaldo vs 32% non penalty goal contribution for Maradona) 4.)In major trophy winning campaigns Diego Maradona for Napoli Scored 45% of his goals from penalties(13 out of 29) In major trophy winning campaigns for Real Madrid cristiano Ronaldo Scored 20% of his goals from penalties(26 out of 131) Who really was reliant on penalties? When it counts at club level there is no contest
Because it's not just about the pass. A player can dribble past five opponents and make a short pass to the striker, who then scores in front of the goal. In that case, the merit is 90% to the player who provided the assist, not solely for the pass itself, but for everything he did before it. Moreover, it's not just a matter of reducing everything to the assist alone. The entire sequence of play leading up to the goal is what generates it. If the main reason players score goals is because they receive the ball in favorable positions to attempt shots, the reason the ball reached that position in the first place is due to collective teamwork behind it.
In most cases the reason why the top tier goalscorers have a high number of xG and total shots is consequence of his positioning. I gave many examples. Why Lewandowski gets so many more shots at Bayern than Mandzukič and Mario Gomez even playing for a equally dominant Bayern? Why Haaland gets so many more shots than Aguero playing for a equally dominant City? Why Ronaldo got so many more shots than Bale and Benzema at the time they played together (even being always the best from the three in key passes)? I think in that kind of scorers (Ronaldo, Puskás, Gerd Muller, Lewandowski, etc...), It's 50/50. The average scorers, yes, it could be 80/20 maybe even 90/10. But I'm talking about the highest tier of scorers. The feeling of them to positioning, game reading, timing, etc... Are out of this world
But I believe that role can be filled by a lot of players who fulfills that specific role. It's not the same playing style that Agüero may have compared to Haaland, even if they theoretically play the same position. They have different characteristics and contribute to the team in different ways. Look at how Haaland has the highest goal per game average, but also has the lowest average in all other statistics. It's not a coincidence. It's because he is specifically focusing on that function, not because he is inherently "superior" as a goalscorer compared to the rest. Haaland may have more expected goals (xG), but he also has fewer passes, fewer dribbles, fewer defensive actions, etc. Why? Because it's clear that as a player, he contributes specifically in that way. Goals are generated through collective plays where the credit is distributed among everyone. For example, Benzema, Agüero, or Mandzukič may have fewer goals than Haaland or Lewandowski, but that doesn't mean they are not contributing in the same way to the team's goal generation.
I think your example applies mainly (or only) to Haaland. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, for example, contribute a lot in aspects other than scoring goals and manage to have an even higher goal average (at their peak) than Haaland. Lewandowski, Suarez and Ibra are also others who at their peak had a goal average very close to Haaland but contributing much more in other aspects of the game. Now, in the case of Benzema, Aguero, Mandzukič they contributed as much or less than Lewandowski and Suarez but with an extremely lower goal average
Yes, my point is that it's easier to score many goals for a player who specifically focuses on that. Positioning, game reading, and timing are relevant and these are determining factors that differentiate a great scorer from an average one, but when we talk about top world class players, that don't explain the difference in the quantity of goals. For example, let's consider Benzema and Lewandowski. The reason why Lewandowski scores more goals is not due to his superior positioning, game reading, or timing. Both players could be equally good in these aspects. The reason is that Benzema fulfills other functions within his team. At that level, the real determining factor is mainly the role of each player and how good the team they play on is.
I agree with almost everything you said. My main disagreement is what you said about KDB scoring as many goals as Lewandowski. Even if he focuses only on finishing and stop to do the other things, he couldn't reach the level of Lewandowski as a goalscorer
True, it might be an exaggeration. The example would be better if we swapped Lewandowski and Benzema.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/jun/25/sampdoria-1991-rob-smyth Roberto Mancini 1990/91 Serie A Trequartista 12 goals 19 assists Sampdoria 1990/91 Scored 57 goals in Serie A Roberto Mancini directly contributed towards 54% of the total goals Sampdoria Scored in their scudetto win https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rob...68204/plus/0?saison_id=1990&wettbewerb_id=IT1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990–91_Serie_A Marco Van basten 1991/92 Serie A Forward 25 goals 11 assists 74 team goals Marco Van Basten directly contributed to 49% of the goals Milan Scored in their scudetto win https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/marco-van-basten/leistungsdaten/spieler/74471/saison/1991/plus/1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991–92_Serie_A Diego Maradona Serie A 1989/90 Playmaker(with free role) 16 goals 10 assists Napoli 1989/80 Scored 57 goals in Serie A Diego Maradona directly contributed to 46% of the goals Napoli Scored in their scudetto win https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/die...daten/spieler/8024/saison/1989/wettbewerb/IT1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989–90_Serie_A Michel Platini Serie A 1983/84 Playmaker(with free role) 20 goals 3 assists Juventus 1983/84 Scored 57 goals in Serie A Michel Platini was directly involved in 40% of the total goals juventus Scored in their scudetto win https://www.transfermarkt.my/michel-platini/leistungsdaten/spieler/88994/saison/1983/wettbewerb/EM https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983–84_Serie_A Diego Maradona Serie A 1986/87 Playmaker(with free role) 10 goals+4 assists Napoli Scored 41 goals in their scudetto win Diego Maradona contributed to 34% of the total goals Napoli Scored in Serie A 1986/87 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1986 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986–87_Serie_A Roberto Mancini 1990/91 probably produced the greatest (and simultaneously) most underrated season in Serie A history Mancini dragged Sampdoria to their first and only scudetto in their history with some virtuoso level goals and performances And he did it when Serie A was literally at it’s zenith I should also mention that he took less penalties than every single player on this list Considerably less penalties than certain players on this list
DBS calcio rated Roberto Mancini the best player in Serie A 1990/91 by far He was also the Serie A player of the season according to Guerin d'Oro http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-risultatiMediaVoto.ph https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerin_d'Oro The gap between 1st and second highest rated players according to dbs calcio is literally bigger than the gap between 2nd and 40th highest rated player That is a ridiculous margin of superiority This gives further credence to my claim that Roberto Mancini in Serie A 1990/91 was as dominant as probably any player has ever been in Serie A He doesn’t get the credit he deserves because he never had a season that remotely resembled this level of production and consistency again in his career But in 1990/91 he was that guy Will have to probably reevaluate my picks for the 1991 ballon dor podium because there’s no way Mancini doesn’t make the podium based on his credentials