Does Lionel Messi have too many failures to be considered the greatest footballer of all time?

Just to add Carlito, on Cruyff, this was against a Hungary starting 4th and ending 6th in 1966 ELO NT rankings too:
Johan Cruyff vs Hungary 1966 (1968 European Qualifiers) - YouTube
So yeah, I'm not saying it was deliberate, but your post did omit some significant stats vs top 10 club elo teams (from seasons surrounding those you selected), and there are also examples like that (considering that national teams were probably better in general than club teams, at the top level, back then too, and that Hungary had beaten Brazil impressively during the World Cup...albeit without a certain Pele playing of course).

 

I looked at what was in front of me without adding or subtracting any details to make one player look superior vs another


I compared Maradonas record vs top 10 ELO teams at Napoli
And also cruyffs record vs top 10 teams at Ajax
And it’s was abysmal
Bad
Shocking

Most of their goals and or/assists have limited to no value in discussions like this(goal involvement comparisons vs players who were routinely tested vs competitive teams)


That is an extreme opinion maybe but it is one I am inclined towards

To bring this point to home when I have the time I will compare Roberto baggios record vs periodic top 10 teams
And of course Serie A teams frequented the top 10 ELO WAY MORE during baggios peak than they did during the Serie A of platini/maradona 83-88

The only Serie A team represented in the top 10 ELO between 1984 and 1988 was juventus and they were never higher than 6th

 

Maradona vs juventus 1984/85 to 1987/88 in Serie A


1 non penalty goal+2 assists in 8 matches
10 team goals
0.38 goals/assists per match
30% direct involvement
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/bilanzdetails/spieler/8024/gegner/506


For the vast majority if not all of his physical prime he was unimpressive vs big teams
Actual big teams

Not fake big teams like early 1980s Real Madrid(that tracta talks a lot about here but thinks no one notices lol)

Maradonas big game legacy is literally 2 seasons
Namely
1988/89 and 1989/90

And of course the quality of some/many of those goal involvements is questionable(most of his assists in the 88/89 Uefa cup were not from open play and all his goals were penalties)

3:19 hilarious defending by Bayern Munich

Assists from set pieces should have an even lower value as penalties IMO
And penalties are totally discarded here..

 

At year end 1985 the clubelo rating does have Juventus 3rd and only 11 points behind Liverpool (who they won vs in the Super Cup earlier in the year and then of course the European Cup, albeit on a tragic day where the match was an irrelevance in the scheme of things). They had just become Club World Champions too of course. On the face of it the number of English teams high up seems a bit surprising compared to the number of Italian ones, but that might be a bit misleading in terms of ultimate level of the teams I'd tend to suspect (although it wasn't the height of Serie A's era of having top foreign players scattered through all the Serie A teams yet) - I've copied the top 26 at that date (26 to include Forest lol!)
1 1 Liverpool 1869 1985-12-28 Kenny Dalglish (since 1985-05-30)
2 2 Everton 1862 1985-12-28 Howard Kendall (since 1981-05-05)
3 3 Juventus 1858 1985-12-22 Giovanni Trapattoni (since 1976-07-01)
4 4 Bayern 1839 1985-12-14 Udo Lattek (since 1983-07-01)
5 5 Man United 1832 1985-12-26 Ron Atkinson (since 1981-06-01)
6 6 Barcelona 1822 1985-12-29 Terry Venables (since 1984-07-01)
7 7 Werder 1821 1985-12-14 Otto Rehhagel (since 1981-04-02)
8 8 Anderlecht 1815 1985-12-22 Paul Van Himst (since 1983-04-01)
9 9 Real Madrid 1813 1985-12-29 Molowny (since 1985-04-17)
10 10 Chelsea 1801 1985-12-28 John Hollins (since 1985-07-11)
11 11 Austria Wien 1793 1985-12-14 Hermann Stessl (since 1985-07-01)
12 12 Arsenal 1773 1985-12-28 Don Howe (since 1983-12-17)
13 13 Hamburg 1766 1985-12-14 Ernst Happel (since 1981-07-01)
14 14 Tottenham 1763 1985-12-28 Peter Shreeves (since 1984-07-01)
15 15 Gladbach 1761 1985-12-18 Jupp Heynckes (since 1979-07-01)
16 16 Porto 1761 1985-12-29 Artur Jorge (since 1984-07-01)
17 17 West Ham 1757 1985-12-26 John Lyall (since 1974-04-16)
18 18 Atlético 1756 1985-12-29 Luis Aragonés (since 1982-07-01)
19 19 Rapid Wien 1754 1985-12-14 Vlatko Marković (since 1985-07-01)
20 20 Inter 1750 1985-12-22 Mario Corso (since 1985-11-16)
21 21 Aberdeen 1748 1985-12-21 Alex Ferguson (since 1978-07-01)
22 22 Roma 1748 1985-12-22 Sven-Göran Eriksson (since 1984-07-01)
23 23 Спартак Москва 1745 1985-12-11 Konstantin Beskov (since 1977-01-01)
24 24 Brugge 1745 1985-12-22 Henk Houwaart (since 1984-07-01)
25 25 Sheffield Weds 1744 1985-12-28 Howard Wilkinson (since 1983-06-24)
26 26 Forest 1741 1985-12-28 Brian Clough (since 1975-01-06)
Don't get me wrong though, if someone suggested all/most English teams should generally be considered nowhere near to the best in reality at that time I'd not concur with that I don't think.

 

it´s pre retirement for Messi he is just vibing out now and earning Apple Money lmao.

 

¿?

"Not fake big teams like early 1980s Real Madrid(that tracta talks a lot about here but thinks no one notices lol)"

Quite literally, I never mentioned those matches more than once.

Once again, I will attempt to address the delusions of this individual.

Do you consider a league match against Juventus a 'big game' just because Juventus is in the top 10 of the ELO rankings, but a Clasico between Barcelona and Real Madrid, which decides a title for your team, (Copa del Rey or Copa de la Liga Final) and against your classic rival, when Real Madrid is also among the top 10 clubs with the highest ELO, is not considered a 'big game'? Did you forget to take your pills or do you want attention?



Barcelona scored 11 goals
Maradona 1.5 G/A per game

81.8% of goal contribution



These are "big games" by any possible criteria you are using.

Obviously, this doesn't represent Maradona's entire career, but it's completely dishonest not to consider these matches just because they contradict the narrative you've constructed in your head.

If you're going to argue that Maradona had poor performances in other important matches based on the number of goals/assists (as if that completely determines a player's performance), you'll surely find several examples. I'm not going to tell you that Maradona was extraordinary in everything he did, I'm not as biased as you.

Try to be a little more serious and honest. Don't be so fanatic about players and be a little more fanatic about the game.

 

You are deceiving people with this nonsense and half baked statistics

Real Madrid of those very early 1980s years were nothing







When Maradona was in Spain Real Madrid conceded two hat tricks by two different players in less than two months of 1983






This lopes guy equalled Diego Maradonas non penalty goal record vs Real Madrid in one single game(3 goals)

Who the f**k is López
Let’s take out his Wikipedia and look out his credentials

How many hattricks were scored against Real Madrid between 2009/10-2017/18


You are here shamelessly drawing equivalences between this distinctly mediorcre Real Madrid(just before the era they dominated la liga 1985-1990) and the Real Madrid/Barcelona in the 2010s
They are not in the same post code/zip code not even galaxy

López and Martin Scored their hattricks vs Real Madrid in la liga(the most important competition in Spain)

Diego Maradona Scored 2 non penalty goals vs Madrid in la liga in 2 seasons(his goalscoring peak)
Hardly earth shattering stuff


The other two goals he scored vs Real Madrid were in the Copa de liga?

The copa de liga was a cup of tertiary importance
So unimportant in fact that it’s been extinct over 30 years and before it was discontinued it only lasted 4 seasons LOL



I’m done with you for today
You can continue tallying Maradonas goals in garbage finals/competitions though

 

Hattrick scorers against Real Madrid in 1983








https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Orlando_López
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Martín_Goicoechea

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jorge-orlando-lopez/leistungsdaten/spieler/246739
https://www.transfermarkt.com/alberto-martin/leistungsdaten/spieler/155507/plus/0?saison=ges



Every single so called amazing statistical feat he achieved at club someone did it the same or sometimes even better

You could be arguing in favour of Maradonas non goalscoring/assisting attributes for example the technique for which I have no response(he is the most technically gifted player in the entire recorded history of football)

But goals/assists stats?
Just 2 seconds under the microscope/21st century lens it won’t even pass the test

 

I’ve seen that before (and it’s of course a really good match from him), and honestly I think I have seen just about everything that is reasonably possible to see in this regard (including long compilations of assists, videos of all the touches in specific matches, etc.). And I just haven’t seen the level of passing from Pele that we see from the very top passers of all time. And there’s no shame in that. I’m not arguing that Pele wasn’t a really good passer, but just that he wasn’t at the level of guys like Messi, Maradona, Laudrup, Platini, etc. That is a very high bar, and I don’t regard it as a criticism to say someone didn’t reach it.

You and @Tropeiro may not think the Thierry Henry comparison exactly fits, particularly as it relates to the later period of Pele’s career where he played much more like an attacking midfielder than Henry ever did. I’m not super invested in that specific comparison though. My point was mainly just to compare to someone who I regard as a very good passer and who got a lot of assists but who isn’t in the same tier of passing as the very top passers of all time. Henry seemed a good example to me, but I agree that that specific comparison isn’t perfect, particularly when we talk about Pele’s role in the 1970 WC for instance—a more withdrawn role than Henry ever really played (and Pele played a bit of a deeper role than Henry even before that). The overall point I’m making is more general than that, though. It’s that Pele was a really good passer who got lots of assists, but I do not see indication in the footage that he was one of the best passers of all time whereas I think it’s fairly clear that Messi is.

 

I don’t think it’s worth getting too in the weeds on this, but I’d note that I think it’s pretty wild to label Messi’s 2011, 2015, and 2016 Copa America performances as disappointing. He was legitimately great in those tournaments. @Sexy Beast

That said, the argument you provide here is, I think, one of the better arguments for Pele: The idea that he had fewer failures/disappointments and was more “dominant.” But I’m ultimately not that moved by that argument. For one thing, he had plenty of club failures—we just don’t remember them because the vast majority of us weren’t alive back then and because media coverage of the sport and social media and whatnot wasn’t what it is now. Santos definitely didn’t always win stuff, so there objectively were plenty of failures. Therefore, this argument about dominance and fewer failures mostly just comes down to the National Team. And that seems like a pretty limited point to me. Pele didn’t win the Copa America, but it wasn’t a huge thing back then and he did win some other minor competitions/events with Brazil, but none of that was anything major either way. Thus, as I see it, this argument is really only about the World Cup. Pele won 3 World Cups. That’s dominant in a sense, and is the crux of this argument. But we have to remember that he barely played in WC 1962. And, of course, he got injured in WC 1966. So the argument largely comes down to the fact that he was healthy for two World Cups and Brazil won both times. Is Pele the greatest of all time on the basis of winning his only two healthy World Cups? That seems like a stretch to me. And it seems even more a stretch to me when we consider that his team won one of the times he was not healthy, and in the two tournaments he was healthy he wasn’t actually necessarily his team’s best player (Didi was player of the tournament in 1958, and while Pele was super good in 1970, Jairzinho was very arguably better). Pele was certainly an incredible World Cup performer, but I think this “dominance” argument is fairly flimsy upon further scrutiny, such that I don’t see it as being something that would put him above Messi.

 

Messis 2015 and 16 Copa are literally All Timer Copa campaigns.

 

Pelé emerged as one of the best in the world in 1958 and won the title of best player in South America in 1973. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_American_Footballer_of_the_Year)

It's clear that he wasn't the best in all these 15 years. Just like Messi wasn't either. But both were around 15 years at the top.

Pelé, like Messi, has always been top scorer and assist leader in the tournaments they played. Pelé's passes may be less aesthetically pleasing, but opta's numbers and other sources are there.

I see similarities in longevity (+15) and characteristics (scorer and assist leader).

Pelé's advantage over Messi is that he could shoot with both legs, head very well, and he wasn't exposed to as many defeats as Messi in the Argentine national team. There was an aura of invincibility around Pelé. Messi's advantage is better ball control and playing in more competitive football where the talent pool is bigger.

 

See how Pelé was ambidextrous

In the same game, in 1973, two goals, one with each leg. A hard free kick with the right leg. And a powerful volley with the left leg.(both goals are in the same game)





And his famous head goal against Italy

6 - Pelé provided six assists for Brazil at the World Cup in 1970 – the most by a player in a single tournament since 1966:

6 - Pele in 1970
5 - Diego Maradona in 1986
5 - Thomas Häßler in 1994
5 - Pierre Littbarski in 1982
5 - Robert Gadocha in 1974

Catalyst. #OptaWCYears

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) April 30, 2020

 

I’ve never understood the argument that someone is better than someone else because they could score really well with both feet. Being more ambidextrous with your feet makes it easier to score goals, so it’s definitely a great attribute to have. But if a guy who is less ambidextrous still scores a ton, then he’s obviously just better in other aspects of scoring in ways that make up for being less ambidextrous. For instance, Messi may be less ambidextrous than some other players (though he actually does have a lot of goals with his right foot) and may not be dangerous in the air, but he nevertheless scored an outrageous amount of goals. How is that? Well, one reason is that the accuracy of his shots was utterly freakish (which, I’ll note, is what allowed him to massively outdo his xG in a way that no other player does). If two guys are both all-time scorers, and one is an all-time scorer because of an incredible combination of ambidextrousness and ability in the air while the other is an all-time scorer because of freakish shot accuracy, then how do we get to a conclusion from that that one is better? In the end, they’re both all-time scorers—just with different strengths that got them there!

 

btw guys where does Cristiano rank all time for u can we all agree he is atleast top 7-8 all time?

 

Cristiano is in the same tier as Messi. Not higher, nor lower. Personally, my top 3 is Pelé, Cristiano and Messi, in that order. I understand who put Messi ahead of Cristiano and it's ok for me. What I think is inadmissible is to put someone between these two. Cristiano ir right after or right before Messi and anything other than that is madness.

 

To me, Messi, Pele, Maradona, and Cruyff are above Cristiano. And then after that I’m not sure there’s anyone I’d have above him. Maybe Puskas and/or Di Stefano but that’s getting to players from so long ago that ranking them is really little more than speculation. So, I’d say Cristiano is probably between #5 and #7 all time, depending on what I’d do with Puskas and Di Stefano. I also think there’s a charitable reading of Cristiano’s career (or an uncharitable reading of Maradona’s and/or Cruyff’s) that could put him above Maradona and/or Cruyff. But in the end I think I’d put him behind those two.

 

I put Messi,Pele,Cruyff,Gerd Müller,Beckenbauer and Maradona over Cristiano.
Cristiano imo dosen´t have a single International Elite Campaign.He also has probably the worst World Cup Legacy out of all Player´s that i would put in my Top 10.

 

I respect your opinion but I disagree. I rank the names you mentioned as follows:
Pelé
Cristiano
Messi
DiStefano
Cruijff
Maradona
Puskás

 

This is madness imo. When everything is said and done, Messi scores at noticeably higher rate than Ronaldo all time. Even if you could make big games argument and that his goalscoring is more universally appliceable, you can bridge that gap or at the very most claim ronaldo is a sloghtly better goalscorer than Messi and this is where comparison stops because technically and playmaking-wise, Messi is lightyears ahead of Ronaldo making him class of his own in terms of actual impact on the pitch.

The only other player that can have an argument to be as dominant as Messi in those three major aspects of attacking (goalscoring, ball control, playmaking) is Pele who do seems to be ahead of everyone else in gis era in similar fashion.

So, It is definitely:

1. Pele, Messi

Then

3. Maradona, Cruyff and Cristiano

- they seem like a tier bellow with possibly Puskas joinning them as lessthanjake said.

Cristiano is very likely top 10 in history and has a good case to be top 5, which lets not take it lightly, is an insane achievment.

You have to be super special to be in such a small company of players

And i am not saying that as some Messi fan trying to make Cristiano fans feel good about it or as an act of being "fair", "objective", "neutral".. i mean that.

If cristiano was not even top 30 player i would have said so.

 

It's unfair of you to use that reason to put them above Cristiano. Pelé played for the best NT of all times that won 3 WC from 4 possibles. Cruijff played for a revolutionary NT that were the basis of an dominant Ajax that won 3 UCL. The same applies for Gerd Muller and Beckenbauer that in addition to being two GOATs playing on the same team, they played in the best Germany in history that also were the basis of a Bayern that won 3 UCL. Maradona played with an Argentina that won the WC in 78 playing with the likes of Kempes, Passarella, Fillol, etc... Messi's Argentina weren't comparable to Cristiano's Portugal. In fact, in 2022 were just the second time that Portugal past the R16. It's the same that say Griezmann is better than Cristiano because he had a better WC record than him. Ignoring the context of the NT they played

 

But quite honestly, i have my doubts about Cruyff belong in that category, but i dont know enough. He might be overrated

 

Portugal´s Team was always decent enough for Cristiano to have a single WC KO Goal Contribution his 2022 Portugal was literally one of the most if not the most talented team in that WC.Portugal´s Team was also Decent enough to win Euro 2016 where Cristiano only scored in 2 out of 7 games where Eder won that Title in the Final for him against France.Let´s not act like Portugal was a complete garbage Team over the last 15 Years.

 

Well, the teams Messi played for scored in a higher rate than Cristiano's. That explains the gpg ratio from Messi being higher than Cristiano's once his teams produced less than Messi's.

Technique is a huge range of different skills that each player has. Messi is better than Cristiano in some techniques and Cristiano is better than Messi in others. In that sense, they are equivalent. They have different strengths.

 

That is not true. It is Real that holds the record for the most goals scored in la liga camapaign in 2012 (121 goals)



Messi has 4 seasons in which he scored more non penalty goals than Ronaldos best tally. Messi also scored more than 1 non penalty goal per 90 in 3 different seasons one of those being 2018/19 for which there is no argument that Messi played for a superior team that Ronaldo has never played for.

Also out of top 12 best goalscoring campaigns since 1990, Messi has 7 of those, Ronaldo 3.

Just blatantly looking at their all time stats Messi has scored 698 non penalty goals in 1027 matches and Ronaldo 685 in 1116 matches.

That is a clear difference.

As i said, at very best you could argue they are equal or Ronaldo slightly better due to various reasons, but that doesnt close the gap in playmaking.



Technique is not just a technique. How they control the ball and dribble is irrelavant, it is what kind of impact they have and to suggest that in dribbling that Cristiano comes anywhere close to effectivness Messi has is ridiculous.