2023 USL/NWSL/USOC/MLS Next Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by gaolin, Mar 7, 2023.

  1. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Fotis “innings eater” bazakos
     
  2. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR


    Charleston Indianapolis 12 second DOGSO
     
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  3. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hmm. Presuming it's not for DR (which would be bad) or PO (which would need more context), I suspect there are some referees who simply believe an off-the-ball foul like that must be a caution because it is inherently more than careless. While I understand that reasoning, I just don't think it works in practice. Short of something else happening here with the larger context, I just don't see why this needs to be yellow.

    That's got to be red and, more importantly, a learning opportunity for the fourth. Hopefully he had a good assessor there who spent time on it.
     
  5. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    The first one I’m sure is being called an arm to the face so straight reckless on its own

    And yeah that second one is absolutely a violent conduct red card. And literally right in front of the fouled players bench. What a shame. I wonder if the match completely lost control after that, 3-0 in stoppage time of the first half. What a potential nightmare scenario
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What makes you sure?

    I concede it's possible this was deemed reckless use of the arm. But the one replay we have doesn't seem to support that from what I'm seeing. Certainly not to the face. It seems like any contact is to the shoulder. If there's something to the side/back of the head, I get it. But if there is, given the angle of vision, it would seem the referee is guessing.

    It's not the end of the world. Soft 2CTs get given. Given the score, time and result of the play if not called, I'm surprised to see this one so readily accepted (relatively speaking, to be honest). And if it's for reckless arm, fine--whether or not that is factually correct. I would just hope that this can be a reminder/lesson that not all off-the-ball fouls need to be yellow (regardless of whether or not that was the actual justification for the decision here).
     
  7. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    #132 StarTime, Jun 6, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2023
    Violent conduct? You’re saying conclusively that this isn’t a challenge for the ball? https://i.imgur.io/pTke0b3_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

    View attachment 238193

    I get he winds up being late, but the ball is right where he kicks through, only milliseconds before contact. We can speculate about what’s going through #5’s head all we want, but I don’t see how an argument that he wasn’t challenging for the ball holds water, given where the ball was.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's the age-old debate on plays similar to this, right?

    There are arguments in favor of VC. The ball is 5 yards away by the time he makes contact. It's actually out of play when contact is made. And also, where is he trying to blast that ball to? I get that's a subjective factor, but given the position on the field and where things were heading that is a very unusual "challenge" for the ball. We can say we don't know what he's trying to do but, in reality, we know what he's trying to do.

    Of course, you hit on the points of why SFP is the more correct decision from a literal LOTG reading. I would only quibble with your use of "conclusively." I don't think you default to SFP if VC isn't "conclusive"--I think you make the best decision and go with one category over the other on the preponderence of evidence.

    Luckily, in most elite competitions domestically, the distinction is irrelevant so you really can't go wrong here.
     
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  9. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Not sure at all. I just looked at the video and it seems like green player does almost what in the nfl is an illegal crack back block, where it appears he’s leading with his forearm as mode of contact into the point of contact above the shoulders. But again, just appears to. I give benefit of the doubt to refs at this level that he’s not falling victim to “anything off the ball is a yellow”.

    Maybe it could fall into the SFP category. But the location of that ball right on the sideline, the amount of force he is putting into that kick, even if he kicks the ball, is reminiscent of the force Paredes used blasting the ball into the Netherlands bench in the World Cup (even though that was a dead ball situation). And look at the foulers reaction afterwards, complete apathy, complete disregard, doesn’t apologize, nothing. We don’t judge intent or what was going through his head, but clearly he’s fine with doing this. To me this fits the bill of a play that is in the vicinity of the ball but is so egregious that it should be violent conduct, and not just men’s amateur “send him off for match control” type of VC
     
  10. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    first goal in the CIN-PIT QF. Long conversation between referee and AR (not visible on replay) - suspect they were discussing whether CIN #14 (Badji) touched the ball before Vazquez shot.

    Goal ultimately awarded.
     
  11. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  12. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I watched this live on YouTube and really interesting.

    From the available replays, it's possible that Badji is offside on the initial pass (he looks like he's leaning). However, there is no conclusive evidence one way or the other. Regardless, it is obvious that the AR had him on onside there in his opinion.

    What's definitely conclusive is that Vazquez is offside when Badji touched the ball after the initial pass.

    There is no debate on that.

    You can see the AR stand at attention after the goal. From the looks of it, he had Vazquez offside if Badji played the ball. What he wasn't sure of is if Badji touched the ball. If he didn't, then it would be a good goal.

    I'm guessing that is what the conversation was between the referee and the AR.

    So both of them didn't see the touch by Badji? They didn't think Badji played the ball?
     
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meanwhile...



    To borrow from the conversation in the MLS Week 17 thread:

    Also, it appears the awarded penalty was actually outside the penalty area.

    It's usually comical to say this in a 4-1 game, but given the timing and sequence of the relevant decisions, you might have had a different result in this match if VAR was involved.
     
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  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah this seems like it was offside 2(.5?) different ways.

    Badji is likely in an OSP himself. If he is, and touches it, then he's offside. And even if he doesn't touch it, his actions probably satisfy attempting to play the ball or maybe even action with obvious impact (though that one is more of a stretch).

    But yeah, once he touches it, even if he wasn't in an OSP then Vazquez is.

    The only way you can get onside here is if Badji was not in an OSP and you don't think he touched the ball. That has to be the conclusion.
     
  15. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    I’ll add that, based on body language, it looks like the AR was about to pop the flag on Badji, then left it down because he didn’t perceive a touch or some other offense.
     
  16. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    So tempting for refs to go red here.
     
  17. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  18. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Are the missed DOGSO PK and missed handball SPA PK refs PRO2 by the USOC QF stage? If so, PRO is in trouble.
     
  19. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    I'm at the game in Birmingham. Never heard so many loads boos. Now there's a small fracas.
     
  20. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  21. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Ref has a USSF patch so he's either a national or a high level regional. I wonder what a KMI failed assessment in a USOC match does to his potential future. It's over right? The dream would be the USOC assignor calling up the hottest free agent referee as a special guest to ref the USOC final
     
  22. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    How on Earth did the referee wind up in the left corner as his viewing angle? But even from that position he should see this handball... that's a rough one.
     
  23. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Sergii Demianchuk? He'll be ok.

    You just posted a clip of him giving an excellent Dogso after 11 seconds, right?
     
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  24. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Screenshot_20230607_235433_Twitter.jpg
    Bad luck? Might be screened.
     
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  25. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    #150 gaolin, Jun 8, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2023
    I was at that match and boy... howdy. Legion was upset after this call. Literally every foul thereafter was booed by all 18,000+ if Inter Miami were awarded it. Every. Single. Time. Loud, loud chants were heard of "Ref you..." and "*** you Ref". It was bad. Not a good time to be a referee in Birmingham.

    I'm surprised there were only 3 cards the entire game (4th yellow came at 90+7) and Inter Miami received a lot of leeway of delaying the game not to mention Legion got first-look at some MLS time-wasting. In the last ten minutes, the trainers were called three times for injured players. In fact, the 2nd time during that stretch, the trainers were helping another player off when another Inter player went down and the trainers literally left the 2nd player who then ran back to the bench while the trainers went to attend to the third player in that stretch.

    Only 1 yellow for DR for the Inter keeper. The 67' pair of yellows were for dissent after a perceived foul and 2 players and the head coach received yellows. Since then, anytime the referee did anything, he was absolutely boo'd with such vitriol I'd never seen in real life. Anytime Inter did anything perceived as a foul, especially time-wasting and especially by the keeper, it was met with a chorus of loud boos.

    The fourth official gave out a lot of shrugs and nods. Surprised either Legion coach didn't get thrown out. They eviscerated the whole crew. At one point, the Inter coach was 20 yards past the the Legion half and the crowd noticed with the referee crew taking action and pushing the coach back to his end.

    In the end, Inter Miami definitely played with a lot of attitude. Wouldn't you, if your club just signed Messi? As they left, the crowd boo'd even harder after a few players did "the shushing" gesture and smiled back at the crowd.

    It was definitely a lively atmosphere though!
     

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