Does Lionel Messi have too many failures to be considered the greatest footballer of all time?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by darek27, Apr 23, 2021.

  1. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    Messi at PSG can be considered a failure.

    He was signed with the highest salary in the world, had no injuries, PSG have a powerful attacking trio, at 34 he is not that old. And all he won were French titles, which PSG won without him. Messi has good individual numbers at PSG, but not superior to Mpabbe, for example.

    The 2022 World Cup title made the world of football not criticize Messi so much for his performance at PSG. He won't have his reputation tarnished. But it can be considered a failure yes. A small failure. The only player who never failed was Pelé, who even won at Cosmos FC.
     
  2. LaPulga22

    LaPulga22 Member

    Messi FC
    Argentina
    Mar 10, 2023
    Leo Messi for PSG
    71 Games
    31 Goals
    33 Assists
    (21G/A vs Top 10 Ligue 1 )
    UCL: 14 Games: 13 G/A
    192 Successful Dribbles
    50 Big Chances Created
    2 Free Kick Goals
    174 Key Passes
    8 Goals Outside the Box
    23x MOTM
    2x Ligue 1/1x Trophy de Champions
     
    Gregoire1 repped this.
  3. LaPulga22

    LaPulga22 Member

    Messi FC
    Argentina
    Mar 10, 2023
    it´s a failure based on expectations but individually Messi produced a lot of Great Football in less than two seasons for PSG with 65 G/A in 71 Games and won the WC as a PSG Player so the PSG stint is not a Failure from his perspective it´s a Failure from PSGs Perspective.
     
  4. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Thankfully your opinion doesnt matter much.

    Messi is the only player in 30s who in a casual pace can do what he has done in PSG. He clearly wasnt the main player around whom the team was built nor did he have fire within him to go at it and prove something yet he has done a lot of goods (evident by the contrast of his performances for Argentina at the same time).

    Also he was unwillingly kicked out of Barca. He didnt have an intention of leaving Barca and trying to prove himself elsewhere like Ronaldo joining Juve or Neymar joining PSG, which explains his attitude and the effort he has put in.

    It is quite remarkable how good he has been given the context and that is purely based on his talent and skills. He has obviously remained professional and taken care of himself, but has casually remained one of the best players in the world. I cant think of any example of such a dominant figure.

    Maybe Ronaldinho when he joined Milan, but he was 28 at the time.

    Some of the most promising young talents in the world, hungry to prove themselfs and reach the top of football (Saka, Vinicius, Rodrygo,...) put in numbers that Messi casually achieves in a secondary role in his team.

    Also that PSG team didnt win the league title prior to Messi joining despite Mbappe and Neymar in the squad so I dont get your point about the league. It is not given.
     
    LaPulga22 repped this.
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #1280 carlito86, May 10, 2023
    Last edited: May 10, 2023
    Ronaldinho in Milan is the weirdest example you could possibly conjure up

    Amazing you can’t even mention this guy

    2018/19
    A413BAFB-F174-4661-8AE3-8A13F0EF7AF5.png

    2019/20
    898BA099-9800-45D3-808B-32EC294C925D.png


    2020/21
    CD32B7ED-89B2-4031-8656-E397E50811E7.jpeg


    3 seasons
    3x player of the league between the ages of 34 and 36



    In Ronaldinhos highest rated season for Milan he was ranked 9th in the league and had the most dispossessions in Europe’s top 5 leagues

    https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/1...3277/PlayerStatistics/Italy-Serie-A-2009-2010
     
  6. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Read what Ive said.

    Ronaldo wanted to join Juve to prove himself in another league and win ucl with them. That is completely opposite to what I am talking about.

    Ronaldinho was, similarily to Messi, kicked out of Barca.

    I was looking for an example of a player who was casually playing at the top.
     
  7. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Come on man, I watched 90% of the games Laca played for us in his last season, and it was BAD.

    We're not talking about an early-20-something player here. Laca is 31 already it's not like he's still on some upward trajectory.

    Also, he loved life in London and Arsenal. That came through loud and clear multiple times. He just didn't fit the plan once Arteta came in.

    As I said, I don't know what to make of Ligue 1, but as far as Laca is concerned, he was definitely that bad for Arsenal.
     
  8. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I had this discussion with my brother who is a big arsenal fan.

    He is scoring every 143 minutes a non penalty goal this season.

    His last season was abysmal for arsenal, but seasons prior to those he was scoring a non penalty goal every 160-190 minutes for Arsenal even during Artetas early days.

    His best season is the last one prior to joining Arsenal scoring a npg every 133 minutes.

    So his scoring rate for some reason is higher in french league. He scores 30, 40 minutes more frequently with the last season for Arsenal being an obvious outlier.

    There are many reasons that could explain that including tactical demands by Arteta or mroe personal reasons.
     
  9. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Messi didn’t have injuries, but there were injuries to Mbappe and/or Neymar in both of the CL ties that they lost. Considering that the team is built around that attacking trio (and isn’t overly impressive outside of those players) and the perception that the team was a failure is entirely based on the CL, that seems to be a very significant fact. And it’s worth noting that you say “PSG won without him” regarding the Ligue 1 title, but factually speaking they did not win the Ligue 1 title the year before he got there. All that said, obviously the team did not find a particularly large amount of success in Messi’s couple of years there. While Messi played well (particularly this season), PSG did about how you’d generally expect PSG to do, rather than having some massive boost from having Messi. So in that sense, one could call it a failure, I suppose.

    But I most object to this idea that “at 34 he is not that old.” Messi has been 34-35 at PSG (and is about to turn 36 soon). That absolutely is old. I’d invite you to consider what various all-time greats were doing at ages 34-35. Maradona hadn’t been a relevant player for years by that age. Zidane was retired. Pele hadn’t been capped by Brazil for years at that point and went to the US during that time. Cruyff hadn’t played for the Netherlands in like half a decade and was making his brief comeback tour as a super-old player after having been in the US for years. R9 was playing for Corinthians and hadn’t been capped for Brazil in several years. Beckenbauer was in the US and hadn’t been capped for years. Platini had been retired for a while. Cristiano Ronaldo had amazing longevity and was actually playing well at Juventus at that age, but even that be called a failure for similar reasons (i.e. played well, won league titles his team likely would’ve won anyways, but went out early in the Champions League on a team that had legitimate aspirations to win the tournament). So if you survey all-time great players, I think you’ll find that Messi’s achievements at age 34-35 are near the very high end (and are actually almost certainly the highest of anyone if we take into account the World Cup). There’s very few players that were actually any good at ages 34-35, particularly attacking players.
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    LaPulga22 repped this.
  11. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    What kind of logic is this?

    PSG won Ligue 1 before Messi joined -> Messi joins PSG and puts up highly impressive number while also winning a World Cup, but hasn't won a UCL = Messi fail

    NY Cosmos won before Pele joined -> Pele joined and didn't put up highly impressive number against far inferior opponents winning one national title = Pele success
     
  12. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    From PSG's perspective it makes no difference that Messi won the World Cup. As I said before, the title in Qatar reduced the criticism of him in the world of football

    At PSG, there were two seasons in which the team didn't past round 16 (no goal or assist from Messi in the four clashes that resulted in PSG's elimination, against Real and Bayern). I think they expected more by signing the highest paid player in the world. Not that it's a huge failure, but it's a failure from PSG's point of view

    It's the reason they didn't renew with Messi and the protests from the fans. Disappointment
     
  13. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Being eliminated by Bayern and Real is hardly failure especially after seeing how far from the top teams PSG truly is.

    I dont know who has expected for PSG to win ucl after signing Messi but he needs to be checked.

    Messi costs that much because he brings a revenue. It has no merit on the expectations.

    I didnt expect that 3 attacking superstars who dont track back and have subpar midfield and defense could be truly competitive in ucl
     
  14. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Wether it's true or not, what I've seen reported is that it's Messi that decided not to renew and not PSG.
     
    Cosmin10 repped this.
  15. ThomasAvie

    ThomasAvie New Member

    Ajax
    Aug 4, 2021
    Weird that i have barely seen anybody talk about Messi winning the world cup in here, considering how much it effects the original question that started this thread. Here are some quotes from that particular question.

    ''His 4 finals lost with Argentina weigh a lot, even more so when he did playing regulate for bad. 0 goals + 0 assists weighs too much.''

    He has since won two major finals. One of them being a world cup final where he scored twice.

    ''The problem is not to lose, but to do it in important matches and without highlighting. Messi lowers his performance when situations are adverse. The statistics support this idea.''

    Since then Messi scored a crucial goal in a do or die match against Mexico with Argentina on the brink of elimination. Completely against the run of play might i add. More importantly he scored a clutch go ahead goal in the extra time of a world cup final while he and his team had just bottled a comfortable two nil lead in the final minutes of the game. If that's not enough to dust the ''his performance lowers when situations get adverse'' narrative then i don't know what does.

    ''What is more important, at any WC/CA he loois like the best player in the world. He Has ZERO great games vs big teams in this tournaments.
    9 attempts and zero effects.''

    Messi has since scored and assisted against a defensively strong Dutch side and scored twice against arguably the best and most stacked national side of the last 4 years: France. And that's without even considering his performances against teams like Croatia or Colombia.

    ''Great player but with so many failures and no leader type player who can't be the best when cards are against him''.

    Maybe we need to rethink this conclusion.
     
    Gregoire1 and lessthanjake repped this.
  16. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    #1291 Al Gabiru, May 16, 2023
    Last edited: May 16, 2023
    This world cup made Messi surpass Maradona, but Pelé is one step above.

    We still have Messi's title fresh in our memory. When a few years pass, perhaps Pelé's small advantage will become clearer.

    The two were great scorers and assistants for fifteen years.

    But Pelé was only more consistent, from 17 to 30 years old. Four finals lost with Argentina is no problem compared to other legends. But with Pelé it is below.
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    AB530F4F-48C5-4B63-A510-741D0E8EA294.jpeg



    2CB0A10B-AA5F-459A-BC5A-6EC6A8464883.jpeg



    AF9C48FF-768D-4E4C-A3AF-6AEE622CB3CD.jpeg



    https://www.ligue1.com/Articles/New...with-and-without-lionel-messi-since-he-signed
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  18. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I think you’ll find that the matches Messi misses tend to be easier matches—which would obviously make this sort of analysis pretty skewed and ultimately meaningless. The missed matches in the league tend to skew easier than average, but even if we just took early domestic cup matches against minnows out of the all-competitions equation, you’ll find that PSG has done better overall with Messi than without. That by itself completely invalidates your point.

    And if we delve a bit deeper into the league results with and without Messi, we’ll see your point there is also pretty meaningless. Messi typically sits in easier matches, but he has actually been out for some relatively tougher matches too (injuries, COVID, etc. all created some unavoidable missed games). So what happened in those? Well, in the last two seasons, Messi has missed 3 league matches against top 4 opponents. PSG has lost every single one of those matches. And these weren’t close matches either: They lost 3-0, 3-1, and 3-1. Meanwhile, Messi has played 9 league matches against top 4 opponents in those seasons. In those 9 matches, PSG has 6 wins, 2 draws, and 1 loss. Do PSG need Messi in order to win against lesser Ligue 1 teams? No, of course not. But it does seem like they need him in order to win against the other top Ligue 1 teams.

    Of course, that’s all not mentioning that he played in virtually every Champions League match, and they had pretty strong groups and difficult Round of 16 draws, so that also wildly skews the difference in difficulty of the with-Messi games vs. the without-Messi games.

    Messi definitely wasn’t at his best last season, and he hasn’t overall made a *massive* impact on the team, but PSG is definitely not better without him.
     
    Gregoire1 and ganapordiego repped this.
  19. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Isaías Silva Serafim and carlito86 repped this.
  20. Calculator

    Calculator Member

    Aug 6, 2021
    So Messi has officially ended his career in elite sport. Weird decision, seemed like he had a few more years of relevance left in the tank, but oh well.
     
  21. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    It’s not unexpected—I’ve made several posts here saying I thought this season was likely his last year playing in Europe. I also don’t think it’s a weird decision. He’ll be 36 when this move happens. In the history of football, there’s almost no one that has done much of anything at the age of 36+, and there’s even fewer attacking players who have done much at that late age. Indeed, most all-time great attacking players were done playing at a high level years earlier than this. So, leaving high-level football at age 36 is not weird—indeed, it’s only abnormal in the sense that he played to an older age than virtually any other comparable player.

    The only sense that it’s weird is that he’s actually still one of the world’s best players, even despite being so old, so he’s leaving European football at a time when he could still contribute a lot. But I don’t really think there’s anything else for him to play for. He’s already won everything, so there’s not a whole lot of reason to be motivated to run it back again. And his options for where to go were pretty limited I’d think. Barcelona probably would’ve taken him (at least they certainly were acting like they would), but they have huge financial issues. And, as good as Messi still is, I don’t really think other very top European teams were going to be willing to spend a ton on a 36 year old (especially one that doesn’t have much reason to be motivated anymore—having already achieved everything he could). You can’t really smartly build your team around a guy that old (since you’ll just have to pivot away from him soon), nor can you be remotely sure he won’t experience significant decline (or injury—more likely at an old age).

    Would a top European club have taken him if the price tag was low enough? Sure. But then the decision is between: (1) getting a ton of money and league profit-sharing rights to leave Europe; or (2) taking way less money to stay in Europe when you’ve already achieved everything in Europe anyways. To me, Option #1 seems pretty obviously better. And that’s especially true when we take into account that, at this point, staying in Europe has as good a chance of hurting his legacy as anything: Any failure to win (which is more likely than not, since “failure to win” in this case would mean not winning the Champions League—which only one team can win) and/or a declined quality of play would still be held against him despite his age, and leaving on top soon after winning the World Cup is a more poetic ending than staying in Europe until he’s totally declined.

    I think this decision would be very different if Messi hadn’t just won the World Cup. If he hadn’t won the World Cup, I think he’d want to try to stay at a top level to be in form to maybe desperately try to have another run at the next World Cup or at least at the next Copa America. But, having won the World Cup, there’s much less reason to want/need to stay at a top level.
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #1298 carlito86, Jun 7, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2023
    This era is officially over
    It’s done

    What an absolutely one in a lifetime experience it has been

    Watching Ribery,Robben,Messi,ibrahimovic,cristiano,benzema,Rooney,Suarez etc

    What an absolutely astonishing crop of talents to emerge in one era
     
    LaPulga22 and lessthanjake repped this.
  23. Calculator

    Calculator Member

    Aug 6, 2021
    I would have hoped he could at least match Ronaldo, or Ibrahimovic. I mean he is after all the one with a skill set most suited to excellence in old age. I know back in the day 35 was “old” but in these days of sports science and care 40 is the new 35. This feels disappointing.
     
  24. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yeah I get that, but think about what Ronaldo did after this point. Messi is about to turn 36, and by the time the next season starts he’d be 36 and 3 months. Ronaldo was that age from the very very end of his last year at Juventus onwards. So if Messi stayed in Europe after this season, the corresponding period of Ronaldo’s career would basically just encompass his Manchester United stint at the end. Did Ronaldo add to his legacy during that time? I’d say no. By normal standards, he was actually pretty good his first year at Manchester United, but not by his own standards, and he didn’t win anything. He then proceeded to be benched the next year, both by his club and by his country in the World Cup, and basically ended up having to leave elite-level football not on his own terms. This was all made worse by the fact that that non-graceful decline/departure occurred when coming back to his first big club, and therefore soured a fanbase that had loved him—something surely not lost on Messi as a possibility of how a Barcelona reunion could end up.

    So I’d actually say Ronaldo is an example of a bit of a cautionary tale that would counsel in favor of leaving Europe now. Ronaldo did not help his legacy after this age, and probably would’ve been better off both financially and legacy-wise if he’d left at this same age (i.e. after his last Juventus year). Of course, Messi isn’t Ronaldo, and Messi might well be capable of doing better at age 36+ than Ronaldo was, but that’d definitely be uncharted waters, since Ronaldo himself is one of the prime examples of massive longevity. So I guess I just wouldn’t call it disappointing for Messi to not see if he could achieve significant success at an age where essentially no one else has—especially when I just think the motivation is very likely not there anymore, after having won the World Cup. Honestly, if Ronaldo hadn’t wanted to stay around to be able to play in one last World Cup, he probably would’ve done something similar.

    As for Zlatan, he went to MLS at this same age. Zlatan did eventually come back to Europe a couple years later, but this is essentially the same decision Zlatan made at the same age.
     

Share This Page