Bad stories

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Law5, Oct 27, 2021.

  1. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    Not soccer, but I an co-crew chief for long jump/triple jump at a major D1 college. That means that I assign the roughly two dozen crew members who are available to which job they are doing for each event. Thursday, Friday and Saturday were the state high school championships. Twenty four state championship events in three days. My wife, younger daughter and son are also on the crew, so I am assigning them and myself. Naturally, there are some assignments that are more popular than others. I'm getting flak from both my wife and daughter about why they didn't get more of the more popular assignments. :( To be honest, both are in the higher ranks of officials. Roughly parallel to the old USSF referee ranks, my daughter and I would be Nationals and my wife a State, so, yes, they are fully capable of handling any assignment, but we used this meet to try to give some of our newer officials experience with the bigger assignments. Sheesh. You can't win.
     
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  2. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    From the soccer side, you would report it up the ladder, assuming this was a sanctioned event. Given that is is 2 man, I'm guessing it is not.

    On the legal side, I think it comes down to who is going to put in the complaint/press charges. Ideally, that would be the ref as the victim. I guess you can report it to the authorities, but you know the first person they are going to talk to is the victim, so he really needs to be on board. And who knows, maybe he has reasons he does not want to deal with the law.
     
  3. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Yeah this was the typical unsanctioned adult tournament where all the BS happens

    I had another bad incident today. Two teams had their final round robin style game and were going to be the two teams in the final anyway so they decided to make their round robin game the final. Whenever this happens in youth tournaments, the referees always get paid for both games. However, these tournament directors said they were not going to pay for the replaced final game because "why would we pay for a game that didn't happen". I began to get into an argument with them, but if I want the opportunity to be involved with this event in the future, I did not want to fully engage. This put out a very experienced and good referee who went from 5 scheduled games to only three because he was going to have a huge break and then one final AR and he decided to go home.

    I didn't know what to do. I wanted to be steadfast in requiring them to pay everyone for both games, obviously the teams paid their full entry fee and the money was set aside already, but it was going to go nowhere. They even said that if the refs wouldn't work unless they got paid for all of them, then they would just put in their few staff who have referee experience instead. And I knew that if that happened, they would surely never invite me back. So I may just give the ref a game fee of $40-50 out of my pay for the tournament and tell him that I got them to pay it.
     
  4. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Ask them if they are planning on refunding the prorated entry fee to the teams.

    If the people running the thing won’t pay you should. And I would let the refs know you took it out of your pocket. Why make them think the tourney people did the right thing? It’s good will with the refs and you want them coming back next year. Assuming you want to do it next year.

    These are the kinds of things that happen in unsanctioned events. And these are the kinds of things you ultimately learn from and put into a contract next year. Assuming you want to do it next year.
     
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  5. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    That's exactly what I was going to bring up because I discussed it with the ref, like I said an older experienced guy who knows all the ins and outs. But I figured if I brought that up, that would basically be the point of no return to ever being able to associate with this tournament again. And I didn't want to burn that bridge after one weekend, because I did enjoy the weekend. And I figure that now that I have some credibility that I managed the tournament well, I actually have something to reference to say why they should want me back, and then I can make a few demands like that and possibly get somewhere with them.
     
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  6. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    I know my experience is quite different than yours, but here is how I handle my clubs that pay refs with a check in the mail. If you pay at the field, I can see how this might not work out as well.

    I send in a payroll that lists the refs and the amount owed. No mention of how many games or when they were. And the clubs pay it no questions asked. They have no visibility into how many or what games were worked. And there are always so many changes and cancellations (some before cutoff and some after) that it would be impossible for them to reconcile what the payments were specifically for unless they ask me. And they never do.

    I guess I am "lucky" that any club I work for was in an assignor crisis before they hired me and they know I get their games covered and they don't want to lose me, or piss me off. So they pay up. I assume they have a ref budget which is based on total POSSIBLE games and due to cancellations, we are always playing a bit less, so we don't exceed the budget.

    It would be very tough to work for a club that did not value refs and assignor work. If they treat you as a commodity, you have no leverage. We are rare and special and need to be treated as such (and ideally, paid accordingly).
     
  7. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I do a decent sized (260 games) affiliated tourney each January that pays cash. I tell them the ref costs assuming I max out every field plus I add cushion for standbys or who knows what. There are always weird deals where someone looses a middle at the last minute and I pay them for it by adding on a standby spot here and there.

    At the end of the day I send them a total for CR and AR spots worked, travel fees (they pay a modest stipend each day for refs traveling out of town) and how much $$ I spent out of the total which always magically works out. They could care less who worked what. It’s roughly $18k. They could care less if it’s $18350 or $18335.

    Later I send them an invoice for my assigning fees, on site field mentoring fees and any costs for food.
     
  8. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Yes, I think it is much easier to get away with a couple hundred bucks in "accounting errors" here and there when you're talking about a massive tournament with $10k+ in referee fees put on by faceless large youth clubs. My tournament ended up with a total of 61 games and basically three individuals were in charge of all the scheduling, setup, etc. I understand their perspective that running it as a few individuals, pay cash on site, they will be more conscious of every dollar. But I am so used to youth tournaments "of course" paying for those games if two teams decide to play their last group game as a final that I never even considered it as an option so it felt bad when one ref got screwed over.

    Anyway I'll see what happens this week. Like I said I'll probably end up sending him $45 or something which is what we were paying for every dual game.
     
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  9. Chaik

    Chaik Member

    Oct 18, 2001
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    If you do that, I'd let the tournament know and tell them "because we didn't have a policy about this this year, I took care of him, but we need to have an official policy on this moving forward."
     
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  10. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    Tournament game between two U-14 teams that are also in the same league, ranked roughly in the top 25 in the state, and don't like each other. One team plays a direct, physical game. I'm the AR2 listening to the parents (see the funny story about Venmo in the "things we hear" thread), who aren't directly confronting each other but are certainly talking loudly enough for their rivals to hear.

    The center, whom I hadn't met before, is a nice guy and is doing a pretty good job with a chippy game.

    Things finally boil over, though, and two players start shoving each other after a foul. Players from both teams come in, and it's what the TV commentators sometimes call "handbags."

    The center simply backs away and watches it unfold.

    Is this how you'd approach this sort of situation? Things did calm down a bit later, and he issued a couple of cards. In fact, there was a good "things we hear" comment out of that:

    Team B parent: "Where's the card for THEIR team?"

    Team B kid: "He already showed it to them, Dad!!"

    My instinct tells me I should be more active here, though. As AR2, I started to run partway out onto the field, but I had a long way to go (AR1's side of the field and AR1's half of the field), and things were already calming by the time I got close enough to have any impact.

    Due to the idiosyncrasies of this tournament, the same two teams faced each other again in the final the next day. I alerted our assignor that some extra care might be needed. She went to the game herself and got there a few minutes after kickoff. Said the parents stopped chirping soon after her arrival. I wish I had THAT on video.
     
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  11. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do think that when people know SOMEONE with some authority is watching these games - or at least that there is a threat of someone watching - people are on better behavior. In addition to our high school state tournament, our US Club State Cup semis and finals for U13 and U14 are going on this weekend in Des Moines (Side note - I REALLY wish we would spread these events out more, as it's an exhausting couple of weeks for many of us. We also have two different State Cups for USYS and US Club organizations - just don't ask about that). The Club State Cup sent out a communication to clubs and parents basically saying referee mentors/coaches would be onsite to coach officials and deal with any inappropriate crowd behavior. When I was on site yesterday, there was very little chatter from parents. I was wearing one of my USSF referee program shirts, so it was clear I was there in an official capacity.

    I do believe that parents will do more parent things if they feel like they can get away with it. When they know people are around with real authority to deal with matters, they settle down so they don't run the risk of the "walk of shame" back to the parking lot. We'll see how today goes with the finals . . .
     
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  12. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What did your CR tell you to do about mass confrontation? I always include it in my pre-game even if I know that there will be no trouble.
     
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  13. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    Nothing. I've never heard it in a pregame -- which we rarely have, anyway, unless you count, "Hi, glad you were able to make it 10 minutes before kickoff. Let's do the coin toss." Or "well, that last game was fun -- now we have five minutes before the next one."
     
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  14. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I was doing the men's O-60 championship game at Veterans' Cup. (The name has been changed since then.) For some reason, the assignor decided that some kid, about 19, should be the referee. Another older guy and I were the AR's. Both teams had players who had played against each other in the original NASL and paybacks were definitely on the menu.

    The kid begins his pre-game droning on, "Please stay with the second last defender or the ball......." At the end, the other AR quietly explodes. "Do you know what grade I am?" "Ah, yeah." The badge said National Emeritus. "Do you know what grade he is?" pointing to my State Referee badge. "THAT'S NOT what you say in your pre-game!" He then gave the kid what he should have started with for a pre-game in a game like this. "If there's a fight....." The kid was practically peeing his pants. He's five time zones from home, he's got the center for a championship game and his AR his chewing him out before the game starts. :) IIRC, we didn't have anything significantly go wrong in the game, certainly no fights.
     
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  15. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    In the old Grade 7 class, this is exactly how its taught. "Triangle of Control" where the CR and AR's take different angles observing and "jotting down numbers" as to what is going on.

    Older players, if I'm CR, I may make an initial attempt to end anything before it becomes multiple players, but I'm getting my adult ass away from any situation where I can be accused of 'assaulting' a youth. Get out your notepad, write stuff down, dish out the penalties. Let the coaches break it up.
     
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  16. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Same - I had U19 players start swinging off ball and before I could even get to it it had expanded to both benches. As I arrived so did coaches and about 200 fans. All the players had taken off their shirts so we had no idea who was who. At that point we backed away and waited for police.
     
  17. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    That's the easy way out. Once you have benches and parents coming in, we can all go home not knowning how this game may have ended at full-time.
     
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  18. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The one time early in my career that I got between two players who were fighting, I ended up getting punched in the jaw. They were aiming for each other, not me. Now I let them beat each other up and then card them.

    As for my pregame, I usually say something like, "I know we have a clear sky, but if I don't say something, there will be a downpour. If you see lightning or hear thunder, let me know. Along the same lines, if there is mass confrontation, AR2 comes to help me control the situation while AR1 handles the benches unless the confrontation happens right in front of AR1. We will watch and take down numbers. Now that I've said it, nothing should happen."
     
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  19. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Yup once you have spectators flowing in, just run away and call the police

    Also I really liked an analogy people here told me when it comes to postgame dust ups like when teams start fighting at the benches. You’re an airplane pilot, you navigated a landing through bumpy turbulence, then after you land, passengers start fighting in the aisles when disembarking. It’s not your problem
     
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  20. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    Eh, but you said that last line. That negates the whole premise of "it's not gonna happen".
     
  21. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Oh hell, I'm sure one of the spectators already called the police. And the first thing they will tell the police when they get there is that the referee lost control of the game.
     
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  22. Soccer Dad & Ref

    Oct 19, 2017
    San Diego
    100% repping this. Context is so important, for those of us doing youth tournaments all summer, this is funny.
     
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  23. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    "The Things We Hear: Pregames"
     
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  24. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    The minimum pregame, even if you're doing it as you walk onto the field should be. "DO NOT let me restart the game if I need to change a goal/no goal decision or send someone off." And yes, I've given that pregame way more than I would have liked.
     
  25. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    Waaay early in my career, I was doing a relatively important youth tournament locally. The big thing was that a FIFA Referee (not an American) was going to be doing games there. I had never even seen a FIFA Referee. There was some buzz amongst the referees about "I wonder what his pregame is going to be like." Someone who actually worked with him that day later reported that it was "Okay, let's go."
     
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