All time top 5 players for each nation/region

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Sexy Beast, Apr 1, 2023.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    1924, sorry.
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    In general, for England International players, this piece is quite informative (though slightly out of date)
    How many England internationals have been born in your area? | Football News | Sky Sports

    "The data shows the North West has produced 275 England internationals, making it the most successful region.

    • The other northern regions are West Midlands (159), the North East (144), Yorkshire and the Humber (118) and East Midlands (107).
    In the south, London has provided 189 internationals, followed by the South East (93), East of England (48) and the South West (37), which has produced one fewer England international than those born outside England."

    "Sky Sports pundit Matt Le Tissier (Guernsey) and Graeme Le Saux (Jersey) were born in the Channel Islands, which are not part of England.

    One Scottish-born player has represented England - John Bain made his sole appearance against his native country in 1877.

    Two Wrexham-born Welshmen have also pulled on the England shirt, most recently Liverpool defender Rob Jones, who made six appearances for England between 1992 and 1996, while Fred Green made his only appearance against Scotland in 1876. (PDG1978: NOTE - Jones grew up in Ellesmere Port, Cheshire in the North West of England).

    Jamaica-born Manchester City winger Raheem Sterling is the only member of England's provisional Euro 2016 squad to have been born outside the UK.

    The only other capped England player born outside the UK and still playing is Ivory Coast-born Crystal Palace winger Wilfried Zaha, who earned his first cap for England in 2012.

    Other England players born outside the UK include Sky Sports pundit John Salako (Nigeria), Owen Hargreaves (Canada), John Barnes (Jamaica), Cyrille Regis (French Guiana), Brian Stein (South Africa), Tony Dorigo (Australia), Luther Blissett (Jamaica) and Terry Butcher (Singapore)."
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    An interesting fact maybe: Geoff Hurst and Italian International Simone Perrotta were both born in Ashton-under-Lyme (North West England).

    Jude Bellingham would add another to the West Midlands numbers (both compared to the data in the above post actually, and on top of the 50 I named originally). He is of mixed race with his Mum being African, but grew up in the West Midlands (going to school in Birmingham, spending many years as a youth player with Birmingham City of course).
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #104 PuckVanHeel, Jun 6, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2023
    This is a good aspect to mention. In general for 'Holland' it is the case that Friesland (the even further located Groningen less so) and Limburg are most attached to their regional identity (this is also true for Belgian Limburg, as one might expect). So say players as Huntelaar (a certain specific area Gelderland), Zenden or Van Bommel were/are truly attached to their region (beyond or maybe above national allegiance). This is also reflected in what people speak at home or at work. In Japan (..... o_O) there is a whole Dutch themed theme park ("Japan's Largest Theme Park"), but what you see there is a hotchpotch of all areas.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    One year ago or so I read an excellent book, which is too long (and not interesting for you/others) to summarize. But I think one section of an interview in a podcast might be (roughly a few minutes; it has also other interesting sections with one as general theme the 'protestant european countries' all created similar myths and narratives for themselves in a time when they didn't truly compare and looked across the border - more or less independent from each other they created similar stories). It starts with a citation (and before this an expose about 'subjective' and 'objective' elements):

    Show Spoiler
    The 'traditional Dutch cosiness' is a story about history that has been invented to bind us. But national history is not there to bind us, says historian Remieg Aerts. Struggle is an essential part of history. And when you deny struggle, you deny diversity and renewal. History doesn't exist for our purpose.
    --------------
    "The lack of a regal and courtship culture - as well as a martial culture without press gangs - works through in cultural standardization/normation and public style. All proportions are small, in a land of shopkeepers within a centuries long practice of small city life. The reducing, toning down and softening in daily speak, 'a little bit', sits deep in daily language. The Dutch culture, if such thing exists, is more receptive than original." That's pretty deadly, right?

    - Well I don't know if it is 'deadly' . The Dutch 'culture' and people felt well by it for centuries. It is also a small area of course. It had geographically few opportunities to show itself. I also have to say the country and predecessor entities never made an effort to spread the language abroad. Also in the time of the colonies it didn't try and invest into it. And it is very much directed towards earthly, the material matter. The dozen authors to have been nominated for the literature Nobel prize are all historians!
    [....]
    You also describe the Hollandocentrism. The historiography is very much centred on Holland. Not only because of how we have created it but also the example of Friedrich Schiller and...

    - Yes, that runs very deep. In the image we have created of national history there is a dominance by the West and Amsterdam in particular. That is also understandable for the role Amsterdam had in the past, though the status of capital and focal point of centralization was denied to them. But already in the 17th century there is the realization those 'edge lands' around the West... well, that is not the true Netherlands. That is a preliminary Holland or it is an overflow area. Defensively Gelderland counted as a so called 'pro pugna column'. Sort of an outpost. The system of the water line reveals what concerns you. It's about protecting West-Netherlands as good as possible, and the rest you can put under water. That's how the country when invaded could, eventually, help to survive and not disappear. It happened again in the Second World War, until the Germans decided 'this takes too long' and they bombed Rotterdam to the ground. [...]
    You can almost trace that back to the way the country came into existence. Like I tried to show in previous work, it is not directly a logical consequence of the Revolt. The Revolt was centred around Antwerp, and more broadly the connected Holland and Flanders. The boundary provinces, which were for a part more oriented towards what is now Germany, had for a long time a different position and the creation of the Netherlands as we know it has become reified, but is not entirely a logical flow of history. Other shapes and outcomes are theoretically conceivable, though expansion beyond the original seventeen provinces is geographically unlikely.
    [...]
    No, none of this is a problem when you know it is an illusion. As we discussed before, 'stories' know certain elements like a plot, rhythm andsoforth. History doesn't exist for us, it is there for itself. If you can recognize certain stories you can work with it and also show what are the weak elements, where corners are taken. That's what we have conversed about.
    [...]
    My own humble belief is certain underplayed aspects of society, which are not all that explicit, that this is much more admirable when put to the test... if you want to give something to newcomers... The Netherlands is a reasonable successful society. That for centuries has been successful in managing conflict and difference. Make diversity manageable. That has the Dutch society learned relatively well in the centuries of small town life. Where almost always... Netherlands has always been a multi-religious society, continuously. It didn't go without pulls and pushes. It is difficult. But the adaptive quality of this spot in the world, the receptive ability, has always been pretty considerable. The whole overplayed 'tolerance' phrase shouldn't be made nicer than it is. It is a form of organized and disorganized indifference. You have to wonder whether it can and should be anything more. But having said... you say all nice elements are smashed and demolished by me... sure... but if you zoom out it can be objectively seen this has been a more peaceful and less deadly piece of land as all the surrounding places, let alone Eastern Europe. Already in the late Middle Ages there is proof for this; lower levels of violence, lethal incidents despite the density. This amidst all the myths and less pleasant aspects, episodes, that we have mentioned and will mention in the remainder of the conversation."


    In a certain way it is a 'forced' thing to divide it into areas. Many of the provinces listed by me don't have much of an identity (e.g. Utrecht). But for seeing how the geographical distribution appears it is nevertheless interesting (and as I said above, contrary to what I felt, Luxemburg doesn't score poor).

    I'll think about my own categorization later but that's of course highly subjective (which player to include and which not; ESM was a more 'objective' - as in independent from my own opinion - guideline).
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is fascinating. One sudden 'explosion' and then before a whole spell where 12 million people (and one of the 'key cities' in Europe, for lack of a better word) doesn't do a lot.
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Will do this for the other country later. Highly subjective of course which ones to include (I can explain it possibly). I've deleted some current players (like Gakpo) and retained others. I also said before I've wondered whether the 70s generation is overrated, but my conclusion is that by and large it does add up. There are a number of logical reasons behind their (demographic) overrepresentation. Some players (for ex. Rijsbergen, De Harder) I doubted (maybe could have included Drost instead).

    North Holland (1.6 - 1.7 million)

    F. de Boer
    Reiziger
    Van der Vaart
    R. de Boer
    Kluivert
    Davids
    Bergkamp
    Jonk
    Botman
    Geels
    Arnold Mühren
    Swart (possibly Utrecht)
    Van der Hart
    Rep
    Israel
    Van Beveren
    Krol
    Neeskens
    Keizer
    Rensenbrink
    Rijkaard
    Gullit
    Cruijff
    Graafland
    Hasselbaink
    Kieft

    South Holland (3.3 - 3.7 million)

    Van der Sar
    Van Persie
    Van Bronckhorst
    F. de Jong
    Depay
    De Vrij
    Dumfries
    Ake
    Huug de Groot
    Moulijn
    Harry Denis
    Wim Jansen
    Wilkes
    Dirk Kuijt
    Van Heel
    De Harder
    Rijsbergen
    Bok de Korver
    Appel

    Zealand (0.37 - 0.38 million)

    Danny Blind
    De Munck

    North Brabant (2.3 - 2.6 million)

    Van Dijk
    Van Nistelrooij
    Cocu
    Van Hooijdonk
    Rijvers
    Van der Kuijlen
    Suurbier
    Rene van de Kerkhof
    Willy van de Kerkhof

    Utrecht (1.1 - 1.3 million)

    Sneijder
    De Ligt
    Vanenburg
    Van Breukelen
    Van Hanegem
    Van Basten
    Wouters
    Van der Linden

    Flevoland (0.26 - 0.42 million)

    Seedorf
    Winter

    Gelderland (1.9 - 2.1 million)

    Makaay
    Overmars
    Huntelaar
    Frans Thijssen

    Overijssel (1.1 - 1.2 million)

    Stam
    Hulshoff

    Limburg (1.1 - 1.1 million)

    Van Bommel
    Zenden

    Friesland (0.61 - 0.66 million)

    Lenstra

    Drenthe (0.45 - 0.49 million)

    N/A - none

    Groningen (0.56 - 0.58 million)

    Robben
    Arie Haan
    Ronald Koeman

    Overseas

    Bakhuys (born and largely raised overseas)
    Van 't Schip

    ------------------------

    Solid attempt (in that link there are other links to click through) - with different choices as mine:
    https://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-rest-of-holland.html


    The other country I'll try next.
     
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    What I thought could be interesting too is to get an idea by playing positions, so I've reverted to selecting an All-Time line-up (according to my own ideas rather than consensus of course though), with 3 back-up choices for each position, and using a 4-3-3 template (switching to 4-1-3-2 with Greaves in the XI rather than Hoddle for example wouldn't change the numbers of players from London in the line-up obviously, but I guess there'd be knock-on effects with the back-up choices, and in effect I'd be selecting/mentioning more forward players anyway, even if some midfield wingers might get in too)

    Goalkeepers
    Gordon Banks - Yorkshire
    (Peter Shilton - East Midlands, David Seaman - Yorkshire, Ray Clemence - East Midlands (Skegness));
    Defenders
    Rob Jones - Wales but grew up in North West (Ellesmere Port)
    (Viv Anderson - East Midlands (Nottingham), Phil Neal - East Midlands (Irchester), Trent Alexander-Arnold - North West (Liverpool))
    Des Walker - London
    (Billy Wright - West Midlands, Rio Ferdinand - London, Colin Todd - North East (Chester-le-Street))
    Bobby Moore - London
    (Sol Campbell - London, Gary Pallister - South (Ramsgate) but grew up in North East (Norton), Emlyn Hughes - North West (Barrow-in-Furness)
    Stuart Pearce - London)
    (Kenny Sansom - London, Ray Wilson - East Midlands (Shirebrook), Terry Cooper - Yorkshire (Brotherton))
    Midfielders
    Glenn Hoddle - London
    (David Beckham - London, Colin Bell - North East, Alan Ball - North West)
    Duncan Edwards - West Midlands
    (Bryan Robson - North East, Steven Gerrard - North West, Ray Wilkins - London)
    Bobby Charlton - North East
    (Paul Gascoigne - North East, Trevor Brooking - London, Kevin Keegan - Yorkshire
    Forwards
    Stanley Matthews - North West
    (Trevor Francis - West Country, Chris Waddle - North East, Matt Le Tissier - Guernsey)
    Gary Lineker - East Midlands
    (Jimmy Greaves - London, Alan Shearer - North East, Tommy Lawton - North West)
    Tom Finney - North West
    (John Barnes - Jamaica, Cliff Bastin - West Country, Paul Merson - London)


    Also, thinking about English star players from the early days of football:
    Tinsley Lindley - East Midlands (Nottingham)
    G.O Smith - London
    Ernest Needham - East Midlands (Chesterfield)
    William Nevill Cobbold - East Anglia (Long Melford)
    Vivian Woodward - London
    Sam Hardy - East Midlands (Chesterfield)
    Steve Bloomer - West Midlands (Cradley)
    Bob Crompton - North West (Blackburn)
    * Somewhat later Blackburn Rovers stars and England Internationals Ronnie Clayton and Bryan Douglas were like Crompton also from the North West, though Clayton was born in Preston (Douglas also in Blackburn itself though)
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Jimmy Crabtree was born in the North West (Burnley), and John Goodall in London although being of a Scottish background. Billy Walker (purely a 20th century player anyway) was born in the West Midlands (Wednesbury).
     
  9. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Wiki says that the Koeman brothers were born in Zandaam, North Holland?
    It seems true that their father was not a Groningen player yet when Ronald was born (in March '63), nor Erwin (born in '61).
    Martin Koeman was born in North Holland and died in Friesland, in Leeuwarden. His last club was Heerenveen, Friesland.
     
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  10. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Yes, even pre-war, it's not that much (many players coming from a bit everywhere to fill the ranks of the numerous Parisian clubs, even from the south and a bit from abroad too and not so much local players) although a bit more than during the 1950's/1990's period of time, I suppose (in proportion at least ofc) but that's not even sure.

    Also, although my complementary lists were not meant to be exhaustive, I had to name Baratte for Lille and its area.
    While at it, Giroud for the Rhône-Alpes too (Savoie).
    I think of Giroud since the discussion about how the players can be representative of a region : well, he is tall, strong... he's easily imaginable as a ski instructor... he started his career at Grenoble (while studying to be a sports teacher). By playing for Milan and most probably by finishing his career there, he moved closer to the Alpes and the region of his origins (... I don't think he will be signed in Saudi Arabia aha).
     
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  11. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    We can see that Lineker is from the area which is more about defenders and keepers and that Crompton is from an area which is more about the attacking talents (Matthews-Finney). Emlyn Hughes too.
    Not to draw any conclusions about the aforementioned players but it's funny.
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It's potentially tricky; per my idea Koeman was less than a half year old when he moved to Groningen and stayed there until his (very) early twenties. His first three (amateur) football clubs are all in/near the city Groningen. He started to play organized football when he was four years old (this was before a limit of 6 or 8 years was installed, I think).

    https://www.oogtv.nl/2021/12/de-stadswandeling-hier-zijn-erwin-en-ronald-koeman-opgegroeid/
    https://www.vvhelpman.nl/het-laatste-shirtje-ruilen-met-ronald-koeman/

    This standardwork explicitly mentions him as 'Groninger' and so does this one. The famous commentary when he scored the 1992 final goal went like: "Koeman... hit... Grown up in Groningen, mature in Eindhoven and Amsterdam, man of the world in Barcelona." (final seen by over 5 million viewers :eek:).

    Now, is there possibly a residu of Zaandam (and Purmerend, via his father - that town/polder is also Holland) within him? Possibly, since football was and is clearly more popular in Holland than it was in Groningen (the overall country average is not so high). Had his father been born and raised in Groningen, then maybe he didn't start playing at the age of four (or not at all). Who knows.

    For that reason (between ages 0.5 and 20 living in Groningen; played football in Groningen) I list him there. Similar cases are for ex. Winter, Van Hanegem and Seedorf. Van Hanegem was born in Zealand (1944) but moved 1946 to Utrecht. Lived and played in Utrecht until the age of 22. So therefore he's Utrecht for me.
     
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  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, it seems like Crompton (full-back from North West) and Lindley (striker from East Midlands), early stars of the game, didn't set a pattern for other top players from their regions. Although if I added a 5th selection of names, especially if focusing on including players who might apparently have good claims but with it being harder to directly verify, it could start to look a bit different (with some other notable defenders from the North West - not such big stars as the likes of Matthews and Finney though anyway):
    Frank Swift - North West (Blackpool);
    Jimmy Armfield - North West (Denton),
    Jack Charlton - North East (Ashington),
    Neil Franklin - North West (Stoke-on-Trent),
    Roger Byrne - North West (Manchester);
    Johnny Haynes - London,
    Paul Ince - London,
    Martin Peters - London;
    Bryan Douglas - North West (Blackburn),
    Jackie Milburn - North East (Ashington),
    Ian Storey-Moore - East Anglia (Ipswich).
    That said, potentially Eddie Hapgood (from even further back in time, and from the West Country - Bristol) could go in Byrne's place I guess, and if in reality I'd select Mark Wright ahead of Franklin for example that'd switch out a North West defender for one from what I classified 'Home Counties North of London'. Maybe Peters could go on the left of attack, but I feel like midfield is better even though I haven't yet used up Lampard or Scholes from the original 50 players I named, who could be options for that slot (or Mannion likewise perhaps, or Raich Carter who some people definitely seem/seemed to hold in high enough regard as a player to make him an option and who was from the North East too, Sunderland).

    I guess going below the top stars the trends can be a bit different. Taking Nottingham as a specific example I think more of midfielders (Steve Hodge, Jermaine Jenas, I think Mark Draper grew up in Nottingham probably too and was born not far away, within the East Midlands). But yeah, Lineker is a bit of an East Midlands outlier in terms of the positions of the more likely historical top options, that's true.
     
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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Sorry, I should have classified Stoke-on-Trent (for both Matthews and Franklin) as West Midlands! I originally did in the first post about the regions of the players but then wrote North West in the next posts. It is not really much further North than Nottingham is either, but somehow I was associating it with being part of the North West (although I had originally been clear on West Midlands anyway).
     
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  15. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    * Lucien Laurent is mistakenly placed in the North East quarter (on blog too) : he was born near Paris, in 1907.
    He played at CA Paris as a junior and in 1927/30, Sochaux (Franche-Compté, in the East) 1930/32, Club Français (Paris) 1932/33, Mulhouse (Alsace, East) 1934/35, Sochaux 1935/36, Rennes (Bretagne) 1936/37, Strasbourg 1937/39 (Alsace), then coached Besançon (Franche-Compté) 1943/50, playing one game according to his wiki page.
    He died in Besançon in 2005.
     
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  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #116 carlito86, Jun 8, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2023

    Best Asian player of all time and it’s not even close


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yousuf_Al-Thunayan

    There isn’t a single player in world football playing in 2023 doing this in any so called cowboy league today(China,America,Arabia etc)
    Even Hulk was not this good in china(and he was REALLY good there)

    Wilfred Zaha(stilll in or close to his prime) wouldn’t even look 50% as good as this guy if he goes to Saudi Arabia

    This is next level football
    Ronaldinho on steroids(in the desert ok)


    It is possible that some all time great level players(even top 50 level)played out their entire careers in obscure leagues far removed from the spot light but it needs some looking into
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #117 PuckVanHeel, Jun 10, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2023
    I think Berlin is also a capital city that hasn't produced many players but of course that has a special history in the 20th century. The population share is however lower as London or Paris (those are in population more dominant in their own country). Even then: it has possibly/arguably underdelivered. Compare with Rome.

    Amsterdam has had his up and downs in a football sense as well, relative to the rest of the country. My theory is gentrification and tourism has something to do with that. Completely bonkers what they have become. But well, it pays well for the rest of the country and - indirectly - also for the rest of Europe and the world (5th highest in development aid, 3rd highest net payer for the EU, 4th in military aid to Ukraine; all this in absolute numbers, not relative).

    This says enough (if you think about the population...):
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/923781/european-cities-by-gdp/

    In the last 30 years the open air museum has done very little while before it had tonnes of world class players (a clear overrepresentation). In the last 30 years Rotterdam, The Hague, Eindhoven and arguably Utrecht have all done more (and also Antwerp, Brussels - perhaps even before the 'golden generation' surfaced). It is perhaps no surprise Ajax had a barren spell before the 'Cruijff revolution' of 2010/2011 and they are now slipping back again. Already in 2004 only 8% of the Amsterdam kids with a Surinamese background started playing football... down from 35%+ percent that it was a decade earlier.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here my attempt. It's hard, also because I want to do both linguistic parts justice.

    West Flanders (1.1 - 1.2 million)

    Degryse
    Lambert

    East Flanders (1.3 - 1.5 million)

    De Bruyne
    Van Moer
    Pfaff

    Antwerp (1.6 - 1.9 million)

    Lukaku
    Alderweireld
    Vertonghen
    Nainggolan
    Ceulemans
    Coppens
    Vandenbergh
    Braine
    Mermans
    Coeck
    Voorhoof

    Flemish Brabant (1.0 - 1.1 million)

    Mertens
    Van Himst (might be Brussels)
    Jurion
    Franky van der Elst
    Vercauteren

    Limburg (0.77 - 0.88 million)

    Courtois
    Nilis
    Gerets
    Vandereycken

    -----------------------------------------------

    Brussels (1.0 - 1.2 million - formally not a province)

    Kompany
    Fellaini
    Carrasco
    Grün
    Van Hege
    Swartenbroeks

    -----------------------------------------------

    Hainaut (1.3 - 1.3 million)

    Eden Hazard
    Van Buyten
    Scifo

    Walloon Brabant (0.37 - 0.40 million)

    N/A - none

    Namur (0.43 - 0.50 million)

    N/A - none

    Liège (1.0 - 1.1 million)

    Witsel
    Preud'homme
    Piot
    Nicolay
    Claessen

    Luxemburg (0.24 - 0.29 million)

    Albert
    Meunier

    --------------------------------------------

    It is hard, but I think the ones that need to be in are included (e.g. people as Braine, Gerets and Scifo). I think the general pattern is correct and doesn't change with including/excluding some names. The overall pattern is one where the distribution is skewed towards the northern provinces (has also 55-60% of the population, though it wasn't always like that), and where the provinces called 'Flanders' don't do the most. It's the middle-north (Antwerp, Flemish Brabant, Brussels) where the concentration of footballers tends to be.

    This ends it I think.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    A map might help to make it visual.

    I also looked at all the 'footballer of the year' winners and 'footballer abroad', and it shows the same pattern (one book covering all Belgian winners between 1953 and 2003 does exactly that).

    [​IMG]

    There is (roughly) a vertical band running from North Holland to Flemish Brabant. In between are Utrecht, South Holland, North Brabant, Antwerp and Brussels. Which doesn't deny a few of the best players grew up well outside this 'band'. Say, if you draw a line from Utrecht to Antwerp then it encounters the places Breda and Eindhoven as well.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/w...m-brazil-and-argentina.2124300/#post-41133043

    You can turn this into one big longitudinal area, rather than there being certain disconnected pockets or specific 'islands'.

    @PDG1978 - is this also possible for Britain?
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm not fully sure what you're meaning Puck - possible to sketch a circle around the areas producing the most top players is it?

    I guess not so much, and that there would be distinct 'hotspot' areas like London and the North West region, and historically (or at certain times) Scotland in general, or particular areas of Scotland. The North East of England, as hinted at, producing quite a high number of the stand-out players (including some 'imported' by North West clubs such as the Manchester ones), without being such a high volume producer of Internationals compared to the North West, in general.
     
  21. Leozinho

    Leozinho Member

    Olympique Marseille
    France
    Jun 14, 2023
    Brazil
    I'm used to create quiz on internet, so I make some kind of research to discover some players.
    About African football, facebook could be a great source because some africans talk about the past football there.

    Some African countries before the 90s:

    Nigeria: Inua Lawal Rigogo, Teslim Balogun, Sam Ibiam, Segun Odegbami, Mudashiru Lawal, Rashidi Yekini, Stephen Keshi, Christian Chukwu, Wilfred Agbonavbare, Asuquo Ekpe, Peter Rufai, Kunle Awesu, Best Ogedegbe, Haruna Ilerika, Clement Temile, Henry Nwosu, Moses Kpakor, ...

    Senegal: Roger Mendy, Sarr Boubacar, Jules Bocandé, Oumar Sene, Abdoulaye Diallo, Thierno Youm, Bamba Diarra, Matar Niang, Ibrahima Ba Eusebio, Louis Camara, Mamadou Tew, Cheikh Seck, Baba Touré, Petit Dia, ...

    Morocco: Larbi Benbarek, Abderrahman Mahjoub, Hassan Akesbi, Ahmed Faras, Abdelmajid Dolmy, Badou Zaki, Mohamed Timouni, Aziz Bouderbala, Abdelkrim Merry Krimau, Mohammed Al-Hazaz, Allal Ben Kassou, Abdelsalem Ben Miloud Salem, Boujemaa Benkhrif, Mustapha Cherif Fetoui, Larbi Inhardane, ...

    Côte d'Ivoire: Ernest Kallet Bialy, Laurent Pokou, Youssouf Fofana, Joel Tiehi, Ben Badi, Alain Gouaméné, Séry Wawa, Arsène Hobou, Ignace Wognin, Jean Keita, Konan Yoboue, Eustache Mangle, ...

    Ghana: Baba Yara, Osei Koffi, Robert Mensah, Abedi Ayew Pelé, Mohammed Polo, Ibrahim Sunday, Karim Abdul Razak, James Kuuku Dadzie, Joshn Eshun, Samuel Opoku Nti, Emmanuel Quarshie, Sampson Lamptey, Adolf Armah, Haruna Yusif, ...

    Cameroon: Eugène N'jo Lea, Thomas Nkono, Joseph-Antoine Bell, Roger Milla, Andre Kana-Biyik, Theophile Abega, Jean Manga Onguene, Emile Mbouh, Stephen Tataw, Paul Mfede, Emmanuel Kunde, Paul Gaston Ndongo, Jean-Pierre Tokoto, ...

    Algeria: Rachid Mekhloufi, Hacène Lalmas, Mustapha Zitouni, Lakhdar Belloumi, Rabah Madjer, Djamel Zidane, Ali Fergani, Salah Assad, Djamel Menad, Mustapha Kouici, Chaabane Merzekane, Mahi Khennane, Ali Bencheikh, ...
     
  22. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    #122 wm442433, Jun 20, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2023
    (in order to show it)

    ... yeah again Paris and Île-de-France (Paris itself more btw) had more great names pre-war than during the long "in-between era" 1950/'60 to the 90's. Checking amongst the French Cup winners from 1918 to 1949 (Ol. Pantin, CA Société Générale/ CA Sports Généraux, CA Paris, Red Star, RC Paris all from Paris but also the others in case of) in order to spot some important names, there are :
    Jules Devaquez, Louis Darques, Emilien Devicq (and his two brothers), Jean Boyer, Bigué, Chayriguès, Gamblin, Bonnardel, Paul Nicolas, Brouzes, Sentubéry, Edouard Crut and Jules Devaquez with OM, Langiller with Roubaix, Robert Mercier, Delfour, Dupuis (FB, 9 caps), Vaast, Bongiorni. The whole RCP attacking line '49 : Gabet, Tessier, Quenolle, Vaast, Moreel.

    Now, the World Cup players :

    WC 1930 (5) : Capelle, Delfour, Jean Laurent, Lucien Laurent, Langiller.
    WC 1934 (3) : Mairesse, Delfour, Jean Nicolas.
    WC 1938 (2) : Delfour, Jean Nicolas.
    WC 1954 (1) : Jonquet.
    WC 1958 (4) : Jonquet, Lafont (DF, 4 caps, Etoile d'Or '58), Bellot (0 caps) and Bruey (a very good club player with 4 caps/ 1 g./ 1 a., of Polish descent).
    WC 1966 (1) : Herbin.
    WC 1978 (0) : none.
    WC 1982 (0) : none.
    WC 1986 (1) : Tusseau.
    WC 1998 (1) : Henry.
    WC 2002 (3) : Christanval, Henry, Wiltord.
    WC 2006 (5) : Gallas, A. Diarra, Henry, Wiltord, Saha.
    WC 2010 (3) : A. Diaby, Anelka, Henry.
    WC 2014 (5) : Digne, Sakho, Mangala, Sissoko, Pogba.
    WC 2018 (7) : Areola, B. Mendy, Kimpembé, Nzonzi, Kanté, Pogba, Mbappé.
    QC 2022 (11): Areola, Saliba, Disasi, Koundé, I. Konaté, Y. Fofana, Rabiot, Guendouzi, Mbappé, Coman, Kolo Muani.


    In 1930, it's somehow in the continuation of the "proto-French-football era" but it's not a so huge amount of Parisian players already.

    Kolo Muani was a last-minute replacement for an injured Nkunku, who is from the Parisian area too.

    At last, we must cite Pilorget (born in Paris, PSG 1975/87, 1988/89, capt. 1987/88, recordman of games played for PSG, 3 Olympic caps in '83) who never was capped for France. He was on the bench once in '81 and was selected in view to prepare the French Euro during the 1983/84 winter pause but never would participate in this meeting as he had a car accident before that. His eldest daughter who accompanied him died.
    Now it's difficult to continue to speak football but he missed the whole 1984/85 season due to injury, missed a chance to participate in the Euros or even more probably to be part of the '84 olympic team that won the gold medal in Los Angeles. His international career was done.
    After this 1984/85 season without playing, he won the first League title for PSG, playing every 38 games. He'll become the captain the next season, will play for Cannes in 1987/88 and play a last season for PSG in 1988/89 where he played from the age of 17 years to the age of 31 years.
    Another daughter died in 2011, during a trip in Thaïland, of myocardis according to the local authorities, but what caused her death remains mysterious.
    In 2012 he was offered to coach AS Cannes when they were administratively relegated to the amateur level in the 4th Div., which he did (French Cup Q/F's).


    Some other names (not all) which are not cited in this post :
    GK : Migeon, Delachet, P. Rousseau, Revault, Cool, Porato...
    DF :G. Sénac, D. Sénac, Jodar, F. Silvestre, Bonalair, Thys, Thétis, Prunier, Mahé, Déhu, Rabesandratana... Raph. Guerreiro (Portugal NT)...
    M : Dewilder, F. Henry (not linked), Guérin (Euro 96), Dedebant, Lachuer, Dacourt (Euro 2004)
    A : G. Grizzetti, Rodighiero, Pintenat, Orts, Monczuk, Beltramini, Couriol (WC '82), N'jo Léa (son), Assadourian (Armenia NT at 30 years old), Madar (of Armenian descent, Euro 96 without playing), Nouma, Nalis...

    Also a non-international player before 1949 : the forward Henri Ozenne (1 League title in '36 and 2 Cups with RCP in '36 and '39, runner-up in the 1930 Cup where he replaced the injured GK at some point during a game that went to o.t.).

    There's Allan Saint-Maximin too now for example. There was Olivier Bernard too, at Newcastle.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks.

    Do you have an explanation/theory for the variation over time?
     
  24. Leozinho

    Leozinho Member

    Olympique Marseille
    France
    Jun 14, 2023
    Brazil
    #124 Leozinho, Jun 22, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2023
    You have to think about two factors: population and infrastructure.
    The more your population increases, the more you increase your chances of creating talents. But at some points, you have no space enough to have infrastructure to play football.

    French urban planning after WW2 was to build district of buildings called "grands ensembles" in french. All popular district of Paris area were replaced by these kind of high density districts which concentrate the population in place without infrastructure to play football or any sport. That's why it decreased from the 60s.

    [​IMG]
    La Courneuve, 8.3 km from the center of Paris

    But in the 90s appeared what we call "city stade". It's a multisport playground with free access where you can play football, basketball and handball. A lot of them were built in the popular districts, then in the whole country.

    [​IMG]
    A "City Stade"

    Moreover, most of immigrants who set in Paris area come from African countries who love football.
    So from the 90s, you have a large population with high density of people loving football with free access to infrastructure to play.
     
    wm442433 and PuckVanHeel repped this.
  25. Leozinho

    Leozinho Member

    Olympique Marseille
    France
    Jun 14, 2023
    Brazil
    Riyad Mahrez speaking about this :
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.

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