The 2023 U-17 Player Pool Thread

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by David Kerr, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Baldanzi is listed at 5'7", from what I see, but you may be right on his size. Asprilla in the Championship is a second tier league -- like MLS, there's absolutely a place for them. It's just rare at the very top. You have to be amazing already to be a top flight 10 ... but then add in the size and it's means ever more amazing.

    You can find exceptions. But they are rare. You're going to have to be as good as Bernardo Silva, mostly likely. And it's not going to be the players' choice -- to your point, it is going to be how they fit in the set up. And very few players are good enough to dictate how their coach sets up.

    Which is to say, it won't hurt a smaller 10 to get some time on the wing. It's unlikely Carrizo is good enough to play 10 at the top flight anyway -- some positional versatility opens up options.

    -------------------------------------

    I will say this: I hear a lot of talk about cycles of tactics, and there absolutely will be swings between difference tactics as people devise different things to offset whatever is working today.

    But aside from a couple of truly elite players, the old school 10-who-doesn't-play-defense is not going to ever come back at the top level. Because the shift that isn't changing is that players are much more in shape now. And a 10 that can defend is better than the same 10 who doesn't. So you better be Leo Messi. And even then ... your team is likely moving you to the front line.

    I think that's fair. I mean, Berhalter tried to go that route. The issue is that there isn't an American yet who can do that. Maybe it's Obed Vargas. Maybe it's someone we don't know yet.

    But I do think there's a difference between someone who controls the game with skill and still can defend but isn't a destroyer, and someone who simply gets tossed around in central midfield or just doesn't try.

    And I really don't get the perspective that because a player has skill, they don't need to play defense, or everyone should cater to them, etc. Yeah, if you are the Leo Messi of your world, that's great. Argentina shifted its midfield mid World Cup to basically defend behind him and let him cook.

    The Kleibans helped impart that attitude on Alex Mendez and Efrain Alvarez. Mendez went to Europe and was quickly disabused of the notion. To his credit, he's become a much better defender. Alvarez was praised as incredibly skilled by Zlatan but can't get time because he simply will not try at all. If you are Zlatan, you can do that. If you are Efrain Alvarez, you can't.

    We'll see how good Carrizo is. But the point is, he's not Zlatan or Messi or Bernardo Silva yet. So it's not going to kill him to play a little wing.
     
  2. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I fell asleep and forgot to mention the UEFA tournament just wrapped, so other than the AFC Tourney, all the teams in the U17 WC are now decided.

    In Europe it was a bunch of traditional senior powers that swept through. The only semi-surprise is that Poland managed to sneak in essentially thanks to a bracket benefit (instead of playing Germany, England, France or Spain, their ticket hinged on beating Serbia). England lost a chance at the crown due to a 1-0 loss to France. Otherwise Spain, France, Germany and Poland are through. France beat Spain 3-1, Germany beat Poland 5-3 in the semi's, and then Germany won the title on penalties against France in the final.

    Luckily for England, they got to play a similar angle to Slovakia in U20 qualifying and beat Switzerland 4-2 in the 5th slot playoff match.

    So as of now, here are your U17 teams:

    AFC: None yet

    CAF:
    Senegal-1st
    Morocco-2nd
    Burkina Faso-3rd
    Nigeria-4th

    Concacrap:
    1. Mexico
    2. USA
    3. Canada
    4. Panama

    Conmebol:
    1. Brazil
    2. Ecuador
    3. Argentina
    4. Venezuela

    Oceania:
    1. New Zealand
    2. New Caledonia

    UEFA:
    1. Germany
    2. France
    3. Spain
    4. Poland
    5. England
     
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  3. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I am so tired of this crap. You have no clue how to raise an elite soccer player. I have no idea why some US fans want our players to be boy scouts. Not really common at the top of sports.

    Someone who might actually know what he is doing is Maximo. He has raised a really high potential player. Folks would be better off listening to Maximo instead of criticizing him. His statement were simply matter of fact, but upsetting to you because he doesn't idolize the federation like you.

    Someone who actually does know how to raise an elite soccer player is Claudio Reyna. People can criticize his parenting all they want but he still raised the most talented American soccer player ever.
     
  4. MuchoTakeItEasy

    MuchoTakeItEasy Member+

    LAFC
    United States
    May 16, 2015
    Land of the Free
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If this behavior was predictive of success we would have way more world beaters coming out of our youth and high school soccer setups.
     
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  5. Thundering165

    Thundering165 Member+

    North Carolina FC
    United States
    May 1, 2017
    Raleigh
    I agree that it’s not causal. I think the big difference between AC and the 1000s of other sports parents out there is that 1) his kid is really remarkably good and 2) he doesn’t have any institutional power so he just rages on Twitter.

    We learned what Reyna was doing behind the scenes, complaining to people with actual power. If AC could do that he probably would.
     
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  6. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    There are lots of parents like him.

    There are also lots of parents of very talented youngsters who do not do what he does. And everyone has access to twitter.

    In particular, the comments about other young players who aren't his kid are pretty uncalled for and show his true colors, IMO. They weren't nasty and mean like Kleiban, so he's got that going for him, but it's pretty clear he's putting a 14 year old down publicly to pump up his kid.
     
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  7. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    #757 gogorath, Jun 6, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2023
    You know, I wasn't having the greatest day, but knowing my values are diametrically opposed to yours reminds me that I'm on the right track. Thanks for that!

    Good to know that top players got there by not "having to earn playing time" and not "being a good teammate." Such divisive values, those.

    And also know that despite the vast majority of world class players not having parents who make a public scene ... that's the key to developing top players! Also, I had hope for Cavan Sullivan, but Brendan doesn't seem to have the twitter skills for it!
     
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  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Earn playing time is really funny coming from you. You joined this site in 2019 to defend Berhalter repeatedly playing players that didn't earn it.
     
  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    What you guys don't get is there aren't a lot of people like Maximo and Claudio in this country. It isnt the interfering or Twitter. It is everything else. They are wired differently and not consistent with what you guys want.

    I personally don't see anything wrong with Maximo being annoyed his son got such little time. He is focused on his kid's development and he didn't see his time with the US as productive. Why would they continue at this time?
     
  10. MuchoTakeItEasy

    MuchoTakeItEasy Member+

    LAFC
    United States
    May 16, 2015
    Land of the Free
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First, the kid's name is Maximo, not the dad. Second, whiny parents lead to whiny kids. If the response to adversity is whining...good luck at a level above NYCFC 2. Only the very best in the world will be accommodated. Even Ronaldo couldn't get away with a bad attitude at Man U or Portugal.
     
  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Thanks for correcting me.

    Being a whiny parent doesn't prevent a player from becoming great. Claudio showed us that. Gio has a killer's mentality. If Claudio had followed your guys advice about how to raise a boy scout, Gio wouldn't be near the player he is.
     
  12. MuchoTakeItEasy

    MuchoTakeItEasy Member+

    LAFC
    United States
    May 16, 2015
    Land of the Free
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gio might have missed out on some World Cup PT because of his attitude....does that count as holding him back?
     
  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    He isnt at the WC without the attitude.
     
  14. MuchoTakeItEasy

    MuchoTakeItEasy Member+

    LAFC
    United States
    May 16, 2015
    Land of the Free
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #764 MuchoTakeItEasy, Jun 6, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2023
    If you are sure about this, then we can agree to disagree. At the very least it's highly speculative. Pulisic is a counter example. As are all the other players at the world cup whose parents didn't make a stink and also didn't get benched/almost sent home for attitude issues.

    Lost in all this is the irony that AC thinks they will be treated extra special by the AFA.... what happens if/when Javi Mascherano puts him on the wing?
     
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  15. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    There's literally thousands of world class athletes whose parents aren't entitled. The fact that we've never heard of the vast majority of players' dads in most sports should tell us that this is hardly a necessary trait for a child's success.

    And most of those players have proven far more.

    And let's also not pretend this is just emotional complaining. There's absolutely an element of coercion here -- and it's been done twice. There's also light shittalking of other young players.

    I would venture the vast majority of players have a dad who want more playing time for their kid. But public complaining is making it all about the parent, not the kid.
     
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  16. psnotyours

    psnotyours Member

    Bvb
    United States
    Mar 8, 2023
    Most World class players don't have parents that have a connection to their national soccer team orgs.
     
  17. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I was talking about the Carrizo situation, but I will note that we've heard nothing about former Ballon D'or winner George Weah pulling rank when his son was apparently sitting behind Paul Arriola for a window.

    People can strive to be the best without (their parents) acting like children.
     
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  18. MuchoTakeItEasy

    MuchoTakeItEasy Member+

    LAFC
    United States
    May 16, 2015
    Land of the Free
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's a huge difference functionally between a "and I took that personally" MJ attitude, proving haters wrong through hard work....and, for example, refusing to run in a pre world cup scrimmage because you're upset with your playing time.

    The most high profile example of attitude issues recently, also included an entitled parent (and issues started to bubble to surface in USYNT environment), so of course fans are sensitive to the potential downsides.
     
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  19. MuchoTakeItEasy

    MuchoTakeItEasy Member+

    LAFC
    United States
    May 16, 2015
    Land of the Free
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe he assumes he has so little influence that his tweeting couldn't bias decision makers against his kid. Or he thinks he can influence the coach/fed by playing dual nat hardball. Or he doesn't care. My point is that even in simple terms of advocating for his kid...raging on Twitter has waaay more downside risk vs upside, IMO. But I've never raised an elite athlete so :sleep:
     
  20. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    If MJ lost his spot ... or hell, if someone intimated that someone else was as good as him, MJ would come to practice looking to take your soul. He wouldn't try to talk it back; he'd take it back by outplaying you.



    https://www.si.com/more-sports/2012/07/24/usa-basketball-game-nobody-saw
     
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Gio's attitude is very much a part of who he is as a player. I believe he is much less of a player without that rage in him. CP's attitude is part of his game as well, but very different. I see Gio's ceiling as much higher.
     
  22. MuchoTakeItEasy

    MuchoTakeItEasy Member+

    LAFC
    United States
    May 16, 2015
    Land of the Free
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's good to have that fire, just seems misapplied to his coach, USSF president etc. Fight for your spot on the field by making it impossible for them to bench you, not assuming you are too good or already earned it on talent alone.
     
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  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Gio did what he needed to be on the field, but that idiot coach blew it. The guy deserved to be major contributor based on what he did on the field.
     
  24. MuchoTakeItEasy

    MuchoTakeItEasy Member+

    LAFC
    United States
    May 16, 2015
    Land of the Free
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Via his play in the September friendlies (got injured) and pre tournament scrimmage (threw temper tantrum)?
    Again I'll say if you truly believe that then we can agree to disagree, no biggie.
     
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  25. psnotyours

    psnotyours Member

    Bvb
    United States
    Mar 8, 2023
    Two of our best players have attitude problems. Gio and Tyler of what we can tell and know about.
    Even when you look at the younger side we have one that also has an attitude that is cavin savillan. Yes, his only 13 but from what I have heard he wants every single player to give it their all and to play out of their minds.
     

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