2023 FIFA U-20 World Cup - USA vs Uruguay - 6/4 5:00 PM EST (Pre-match/PBP/Post-game)

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Master O, Jun 1, 2023.

  1. dna77054

    dna77054 Member+

    Jun 28, 2003
    houston
    We seem to be a QF level team at the U20 and a R16 level team at the WC (outside of Europe). If we learn the "dark arts and tactics" after the U20 level, why are our senior WC performances a step backwards compared to our U20s? Should we not be going farther or at least as far having added those aspects to our game?

    Regarding the 2007 U20 game against Uruguay, I remember watching that game. It was a high quality very even game in which we happened to get one more goal. Over the next 4 senior team WCs, those Uruguay players won a total of 10 games, we won a total of 3 games. What the hell happened going forward?
     
  2. bballshawn

    bballshawn Member+

    Feb 5, 2014
    Delaware
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    This has been pretty consistent throughout the tourney. He isn't really that dynamic
     
  3. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    It probably sounds weird me saying this, but when I posted that, I wasn't speaking to Varas at all, other than my tag at the end of my post. I watched this game and how Uruguay dealt with so many things against them and put this game plan together (although, to be fair, they scored exactly the kind of goal I mentioned they tend to score in a post this morning, quick transition, counter, I noticed them produce these a ton against England, just didn't score on enough of them), and just played a great game despite having a bunch of disadvantages and all it could make me think of is how awful it would be to have a senior team coach that has his system and plays it hell or high water with no plan B. Berhalter isnt' as bad as Marsch is that way, but Berhalter was a system, over player guy too, and thinking of Marsch coming in after 3 years of Berhalter was intolerable to me. Watching what happened today with uruguay? I just want a coach who can get a bad hand dealt to him like multiple carded out players, and 2 days less rest, and coach a great game with flexibility (even if it was pretty traditional Uruguay too), and Marsch is the polar opposite of that to me. He's got his system and he's not interested in anything else. I'd take this Uruguay coach over him to be honest based on this tournament performance alone just for their ability to play England heads up and better, and play grind it outs and succeed and be in a tough spot against us and make it through. Like with Pekerman, it just gives me belief he can handle stuff (admittedly Pekerman's fall (in as much as there was one) in no small part came with not handling Messi and a goalkeeper injury well).

    As for the offsides. I'm not sure if it would've been waived off or not, but it's kind of hilarious that we finally get a goal, and unfortunately two chuckleheads are in offsides positions because they're slacking (I may be overreacting) and a third guy just can't get the ---- out of the way because he isn't paying enough attention.
     
  4. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not seeing all that much criticism of Mikey Varas. It really seems like coaching remains a weak point for the US. Even at the top, we've got guys like Jesse Marsch and Bob Bradley getting fired while flirting with relegation. Gregg Berhalter is considered some tactical genius for first trying to do some Pep thing and then using the term "verticality" a lot. Remember the days of Caleb Porter and Jason Kreis being the young hotshots? At the youth team level the bar is practically on the ground and Varas may actually be the best ever, but as soon as we face a bit of a challenge we all saw how it went. I'm just a dummy sitting at a computer so if I know we shouldn't start Wolff and Halliday when you've got guys like Paredes and Tsakiris/Pukstas why can't Varas figure that out? Or make more changes, and faster, in a crucial game? And yet he's a big improvement, before him the best we could hope for were guys like Tab Ramos and John Hackworth, who were a big step up from guys like Richie Williams and Thomas Rongen. Overall, not ideal!!
     
  5. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I think this game gave us plenty of evidence that we'd have gotten our heads handed to us in Group C,D or E.

    We played 4 absolute ---- teams, cleaned their clocks, and beat a middle of the road Ecuador side that got smashed in the R16's (while Slovakia got smashed in the other game).

    I don't think we suck, going into the tournament I saw us as somewhere in the 7th-11th area or thereabouts, and we finished somewhere between 5th and 8th.

    But we didn't beat anybody at this tournament. Even the '15 side beat Colombia, the '17 side beat Senegal, the '19 team beat France and Nigeria and other than a Dest boner, would've tied the tournament winner. This team beat the worst Conmebol side in the tournament (and one of the weaker sides to qualify in a while probably), and that's it in terms of quality.

    So, nice job making the quarters, but it was a let down in a lot of ways. They should've won with their advantages today, and instead they got "played".
     
  6. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We played:

    - Ecuador, decent, but not great this cycle, and won on a very late goal
    - Fiji, the worst team in the tournament by a considerable amount
    - Slovakia, the worst team from Europe
    - New Zealand, the worst team in the knockout rounds, a semi-pro team (NZ has one pro team)

    As soon as we faced a test, we s*** the bed on all levels
     
  7. Yowza

    Yowza Member+

    DC United
    United States
    Oct 23, 2019
    Arlington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't agree they shit the bed on all levels, but they shit the bed on some levels and that was enough. They were in control until Uruguay scored, then they proceeded to shit the bed. That was the most disappointing thing, the response was of a team that was already beat. They woke up late but Uruguay was comfortable defending.

    Maybe an unpopular take, but Gaga needs to get over and stop that own goal from crossing the line. Don't know what happened there, but he looked stuck in mud. Yes, Wynder shit the bed first but Gaga didn't bail him out.
     
  8. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe "s*** the bed on all levels" is a bit harsh, but is it that far off the truth?
     
    Boysinblue and Yowza repped this.
  9. Shaster

    Shaster Member+

    Apr 13, 1999
    El Cerrito, CA, USA
    Just toothless on the attack. No good combination, no good service from wings. Ball progression was too SLOW.
     
    chad, Bajoro and Yowza repped this.
  10. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    In terms of progress, we unfortunately are looking at a change where the output/success is by definition small sample size and consisting of outliers, and on the other hand, development is a long terms process that literally takes anywhere from 1-2 decades per player.

    If we try to measure the difference in the top flight player from birth year 2002 to 2003, we're really looking at fool's gold. We actually shouldn't expect any real difference there ... and in terms of output, Reyna in particular is an outlier.

    It's probably far more appropriate to look at it as a 5 or 10 year moving average to simply balance out everything and wait for changes.

    That, of course, sucks, because we'd have to not talk about it for years, but it's probably more accurate.
     
    gomichigan24 and theboogeyman repped this.
  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    He's great on the break, and he's very fast, and unlike Bello, he really has a much better sense of defense.

    But his success in MLS is driven by getting to play winger next to Almada. That's not to say he's a bad player, but if you want to see what people really like, get him into space on the break and moving forward. Don't ask him to build triangles out of the back.
     
    Boysinblue, bballshawn and theboogeyman repped this.
  12. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    The 5th best player each birthyear is a better barometer than the best each birthyear. And yes, you need to look at 10-20 years of data to see how things are developing.
     
    Bajoro, theboogeyman and gogorath repped this.
  13. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Simple answer? There's a slew of teams that don't send anywhere near their best regularly to the U20. We didn't have Pepi, Neal and Paxten, but Argentina didn't have Garnacho or France like three full rosters. It's also a 24 team event, so we have a larger edge just being in CONCACAF relative to a 32 team WC where there are more teams from better feds.

    And at the senior level, those very elite players that usually skip this stick around longer than every two years.

    We're not really a Top 8 team in terms of talent. Yet.
     
  14. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I think so.

    Look, replace Wynder's performance and the team is basically running even with Uruguay, who is a pretty good team.

    If this were a senior team, I'd be harsher. But CB mistakes by a CB playing up a cycle? And otherwise, it's a ugly but more or less even game? Eh, that's not a "shit the bed of all levels" it's a "made a couple dumb mistakes" and otherwise would have been totally winnable.
     
  15. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay but that mistake also counts, other than that how was the play Mrs Lincoln. CB playing up a cycle was a crucial starter for the US, so that says something about our depth. Also we're talking about 1-2 years here, it's not like he's playing up an Olympic cycle. Just sticking to CBs, the one we're missing (Neal) because he wasn't released plays for like the worst team in MLS. The two other starters, Che and Craig, also didn't look so great on that play. Che may be rusty but he's always made his share of mistakes. Craig the speed and athleticism issues already showing themselves.
    Would it have been? I gotta say, at no point after 1-0 did that game feel winnable to me... but maybe I'm off here.
     
  16. Swami

    Swami Member

    Mar 5, 2005
    I can’t understand how you thought that was essentially an even game. Because we had a possession advantage? That doesn’t mean anything. Once Uruguay scored, they played different tactics…ceding some meaningless possession and looking to counter aggressively.

    The real question is who was more dangerous. That was Uruguay by far. We had Cowell’s shot, and that was about it.
     
  17. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I'm not saying we should have won. But it's a game we lost because of a couple of mistake, not "shitting the bed on all levels."

    We didn't get dominated. We didn't play like crap across the board. We played a very good, grind it out team and the game came down to a couple of mistakes.

    Why not? We literally blocked a goal of our own.
     
    Offshore, Marius Tresor and gomichigan24 repped this.
  18. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I didn't say anything about possession.

    I don't think Uruguay was all that dangerous aside from the counter they scored on. We weren't either, but that's Uruguay. Grind it out.

    On par, was Uruguay a little better? Probably, but hardly to the level that it wasn't a very winnable game. We weren't dominated. We didn't shit the bed on all levels.

    That's all. If we replay it, I don't think we're favorites, but we have a pretty decent shot at a win.
     
    ChicagoVT and gomichigan24 repped this.
  19. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    americans still dont understand the game. even the ones with nice jobs that require that they do......it seems like they do when they beat up on minnows....but thats a mirage......

    Im not sure if it is a general lack of intelligence vs the other teams...but opponents like Uruguay expose this big time.

    skillwise and technique wise the US is basically equal to or perhaps even better than Uruguay in this game, imo....the US has closed the skillgap with the rest of the world...(which is encouraging)

    but thats not the entire equation.

    between the ears the gap is cavernous.....uruguay plays so much smarter than the US.....so much.

    (btw a ref that refuses to use his cards also helps a country like uruguay to get results like this)

    but for the US, it starts and ends with coaching, oviously.....then trickles down

    American coaching is just so below par.....the american approach and understanding of the game lacks any edge whatsoever......

    ....can you imagine any decent country hiring an american coach to lead any of their national teams???

    exactly.
     
  20. Gorky

    Gorky Member+

    Jul 28, 2006
    NYC
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Man I had some wildly optimistic takes before this game, good thing I didn’t post them.
     
    Sup Bro, dlokteff, Bajoro and 1 other person repped this.
  21. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    Freddy Adu was the dominant player on the field in that game, better than Suarez and Cavani. That did not translate to the senior National Team, unfortunately.
     
  22. DeweyEvans

    DeweyEvans Member

    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    That's BS. It's an unfortunate event, but it's slander to say Pukstas wasn't pay attention (he's staring back at the shot) and tried to twist out of the way. If you've never been nailed by a teammates shot, well.
     
    Winoman repped this.
  23. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I feel the same way as you. Once we gave up the own goal, that was a wrap for me. I did not see any chance whatsoever that we'd break down their D twice. The team is just too smart, too good at grinding. One goal we could do it, especially considering the attackers on the bench, but 2 against that team? We were far more likely to give up a third then to tie it.

    However, all that being said:

    xG is 1.23-0.81 for Uruguay which isn't too bad. The shooting #'s are largely identical. The attack #'s from flashscore favor us slightly, but it does make sense considering Uruguay could afford to sit back more after that 20something minute goal.

    It felt like an ---- kicking in a lot of ways, but it was more a game that was reasonably close, they were better than us, but not a ton better and technically it was a little more close than the 2-1 loss to Ecuador 4 years ago. It's just frustrating because both goals we gave up were freaking mind numbingly stupid, and the one we didnt score but should have was so inept and frustrating in general.

    Then there's the fact that we had a mountain of advantages and it didn't matter.

    In the fullness of time it's about who can matter at the next level. There's a bunch of guys that could matter:

    Defensively: nearly all the guys are relevant at the senior level along with an elite keeper who didnt look it probably because of lack of minutes.

    The Central Midfield: I don't see it. Maybe Vargas, and we'll see what happens with the Irish dude, if he's athletic enough to matter because that's the one concern.

    The team was mostly about defense, keeper, and then a couple of wing forward, wing back guys and Aaronson. All of of those dudes could be relevant but are there any guys that look like starters? Not sure, Gaga didnt look it, but he should eventually. The Defense is legit, Paredes is Legit, Cowell is intriguing if he can put it together and get out of San Jose, and Aaronson.

    It feels like a wasted opportunity in the same way 2003, 2007 and 2019 felt.
     
    Boysinblue repped this.
  24. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I have and fair play. I only saw the play once and I couldn't understand how he could be right in the goal mouth as Cowell is clearly setting up to tee up a shot to the far post. Maybe I'm wrong but it seemed blatantly obvious what was about to happen.
     
  25. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    And against Brazil as well, though Altidore also had a great game. I'm never going to be 100% sure what happened with Adu other than his family got in the way, his mental make up got in the way, his habits got in the way, his inability to work on his game and be a professional seemed to do it too but he was dripping with talent from '03-'07 and he did a terrible job of handling that. Then again, the same story is true of Quaranta, just less talent, and even Szetela (though I think he also had serious injuries).

    Also worth noting if Altidore doesn't get hurt every single freaking tournament it would probably be different too. Was injured for WC '14, Copa Centenario and had surgery during the WC in '18 and maybe he delays that if we'd qualified but probably not.
     
    adam tash repped this.

Share This Page