Man you still don't even understand the pont. That a defender could have more goals than a forward might happen, but it's completely irrelevant. It doesn't even counter my argument. I'll repeat it once again to see if you can understand it. (Obviously assuming we're talking about world-class players with at least an offensive role) The number of goals a player scores is directly proportional to the number of goals their team scores. And I have shown you this with the real data you have above. Take another look at them and try to think about it. Pelé or Puskás playing in a team that scores 1.5 goals per game averages 0.5 goals per game. Maradona playing in a team that scores 3.5 goals per game averages 1 goal per game. And this is not an estimation; these are real data from actual matches they played. So yes, imagine Maradona playing ten consecutive seasons in the 1960s on a team that averages 3.5 goals per game. You would have a completely different perspective on the same player. Imagine Pelé or Puskás playing in the 1980s in Italy; you would also have a completely different perspective, and we're talking about the same players with the same skills. If you think about it, you'll realize that everything is 100% relative to the player's context. The same player, with the same skills, can be considered an elite scorer or a mediocre scorer solely due to the randomness of circumstances and the particular context in which he is playing. Furthermore, as always, you completely overlook the fact that players have different roles and functions on the field. If a player focuses exclusively on scoring goals, he will score more goals simply because he is focusing solely on that aspect. Not because his "scoring ability" suddenly improved. For example, you can not say that Kevin De Bruyne is a worse goalscorer than Icardi, that doesn't even make sense. I also don't mean to say that Maradona is equally as good a scorer as Pelé, Puskás, or Messi. What I'm saying is that the difference is minimal or irrelevant, and that in the same contexts, top players have very similar numbers. If you analyze it properly, you'll realize that this is correct.
6 Years Period (Club and National Team) Diego Maradona 1978-1983 220 Games (19418 minutes) 165 Goals 32 Penalties 72 Assists 406 Team’s goals (1.845 per game) Per90 Non-Penalty goals: 0.616 Assists: 0.334 Only with goals. Excluding penalty goals, Diego Maradona scored 40.78% of the team's goals, which he did not assist. Cristiano Ronaldo 2013-2018 346 Games (29633 minutes) 344 Goals 57 Penalties 93 Assists 866 Team’s goals (2.503 per game) Per90 Non-Penalty goals: 0.872 Assists: 0.282 Only with goals. Excluding penalty goals, Cristiano Ronaldo scored 39.26% of the team's goals, which he did not assist. In this period, Maradona scored 40% of his team's goals, similar to "prime" Cristiano Ronaldo
Prime Cristiano Ronaldo were 2011 to 2014. He scored 60+ goals in 4 consecutive calendar years. Something that only he made
in that 4 years period Cristiano scored 37.82% of the goals he didn't assist, lower than the 39.26% he had between 2013-2018
Maradona playing for that Real Madrid would probably play the role of Özil and have a high number of assists but I'm sure he wouldn't score as many goals as Ronaldo. He wouldn't even participate in as many goals as Ronaldo. See the c% from Benzema, Higuaín, Di Maria, Bale and Özil in that period. All of them were way worst than Ronaldo's c%
The myth of Diego Maradona at Napoli Top 10 ELO teams 1984/85 Barcelona Everton Bayern Munich Liverpool Manchester United Juventus(played twice) Atletico Madrid Anderleckt Porto Maradona goals/Assists in 1984/85 vs these teams 0 goals+0 assists in 2 matches http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1984-1985#country https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/die...daten/spieler/8024/saison/1984/wettbewerb/IT1 Top 10 ELO teams in 1985/86 Bayern Munich Liverpool Everton Werder Bremen Barcelona Dinamo Kiev West Ham Real Madrid Juventus(played twice) PSV http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1985-1986#club Maradona record vs top 10 ELO teams in 1985/86 1 goal+0 assists in 2 matches https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1985 Top 10 Elo teams in 1986/87 Bayern Munich Everton Real Madrid Liverpool Borrisia monchengladbach Hamburg Barcelona PSV Tottenham Porto http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1986-1987#club Maradona record vs top 10 ELO teams in 1986/87 0 goals+0 assists in 0 matches(didn’t play any team in the top 10) https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1986 Top 10 ELO teams in 1987/88 Real Madrid(played twice) Liverpool Bayern Munich Manchester United Porto Everton PSV Nottingham Forest Werder Bremen Köln http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1987-1988#club Maradona record vs top 10 ELO teams in 1987/88 0 goals+0 assists in 2 matches https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1987 As a side note I find it interesting that in Maradonas first 4 seasons at Napoli the only Serie A representative in the ELO top 10 are Juventus(and they are never higher than 6th) This is when Serie A was supposedly some godly and unparalleled level of competition Maradona wasn’t proven against big teams prior to 1987 IMO by which time he was already 26 years old Messi already did this by 25 years old So far in Maradonas first 4 seasons at Napoli he has 1 goal+0 assists in 6 matches 0.17 goals+assists per game Top 10 ELO teams in 1988/89 Liverpool Real Madrid AC Milan(played once) Barcelona Arsenal FCSB Bayern Munich(played twice) Inter Milan(played twice) Nottingham Forest Köln http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1988-1989#club Maradona record vs top 10 ELO teams in 1988/89 1 non penalty goal+5 assists in 5 matches https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1988 Top 10 ELO teams in 1989/90 Real Madrid Liverpool Bayern Munich AC Milan(played twice) Barcelona Valencia Atletico Madrid Juventus(played twice) Dortmund Dinamo bukharest https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1989 Maradona record vs top 10 ELO teams in 1989/90 3 non penalty goals+3 assists in 6 matches https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1989 Top 10 ELO teams in 1990/91 Arsenal Bayern Munich Real Madrid Liverpool AC Milan(played twice) Benfica Barcelona Sampdoria(played three times) FC Kaiserslautern Red star Belgrade http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1990-1991#club Maradona record vs top 10 ELO teams in 1990/91 1 non penalty goal+0 assists in 5 matches https://www.transfermarkt.com/diego...ieler/8024/saison/1990/plus/0/sort/gelbe.desc Maradona at Napoli vs top 10 ELO teams Goals 6 non penalty goals in 22 matches 0.27 goals per game Assists 8 assists in 22 matches 0.36 assists per game Goals+assists 6 non penalty goals+8 assists in 22 matches 0.63 non penalty goals+assists per game Diego Maradona Scored 86% of his goals vs top 10 ELO teams in just two seasons which otherwise masks a very unimpressive record Even including 1988/89 and 1989/90 maradona only Scored 6 non penalty goals overall at Napoli vs teams ranked in the top 10 ELO Maradona Scored 74 non penalty goals for Napoli in all competitions 8% of those goals were against teams in the top 10 92% of those goals were not According to this method Johan Cruyff is the biggest stat padder in the history of football 95-98% of his career goals and assists were against teams outside the top 10 ELO There will be alot of crying if i posted Johan Cruyffs record vs top 10 ELO teams so I will not
Johan Cruyff 1967/68 27 goals+18 assists in 30 matches Top 10 ELO teams in 1967/68 Real Madrid(played twice) Manchester United Celtic AC Milan Manchester City Barcelona Dinamo Kiev Everton Inter Leeds Johan Cruyff 1967/68 vs top 10 Elo teams 1 goal+0 assists in 2 matches http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1967-1968#club https://www.transfermarkt.my/johan-cruyff/leistungsdaten/spieler/8021/plus/0?saison=1967 Johan Cruyff 1968/69 34 goals+23 assists in 43 matches Top 10 ELO teams in 1968/69 Real Madrid Leeds Milan(played once) Dinamo kiev Liverpool Everton Fiorentina Barcelona Saint ettienne Bayern Munich http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1968-1969#club Johan Cruyff 1968/69 vs top 10 ELO teams 0 goals+0 assists in 1 game https://www.transfermarkt.my/johan-cruyff/leistungsdaten/spieler/8021/plus/0?saison=1968 Johan Cruyff 1969/70 33 goals+34 assists in 46 matches Top 10 ELO teams in 1969/70 Everton Bayern Munich Chelsea Atletico Madrid Borrisia monchengladbach Dinamo kiev Cagliari Saint ettienne Leeds Athletic Bilbao http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1969-1970#club Johan Cruyff 1969/70 vs top 10 ELO teams N/A https://www.transfermarkt.my/johan-cruyff/leistungsdaten/spieler/8021/plus/0?saison=1969 Didn’t play any teams in the top 10 ELO Johan Cruyff 1970/71 27 goals+15 assists in 37 matches Top 10 ELO teams in 1970/71 Arsenal Leeds Atletico Madrid(played twice) Inter Barcelona Bayern Munich Borrisia monchengladbach Valencia Liverpool Ajax Johan Cruyff 1970/71 vs top 10 ELO teams 0 goals+0 assists in 2 matches http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1970-1971#club https://www.transfermarkt.my/johan-cruyff/leistungsdaten/spieler/8021/plus/0?saison=1970 Johan Cruyff 1971/72 33 goals+26 assists in 45 matches Top 10 ELO teams In 1971/72 Ajax Leeds Bayern Munich Benfica(played twice) Liverpool Derby county Real Madrid Tottenham Juventus Barcelona http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1971-1972#country https://www.transfermarkt.my/johan-cruyff/leistungsdaten/spieler/8021/plus/0?saison=1971 Johan Cruyff 1971/72 vs top 10 ELO teams 0 goals+0 assists in 2 games Johan Cruyff 1972/73 22 goals+22 assists in 36 matches Top 10 ELO teams in 1972/73 Ajax Bayern Munich(played once) Benfica Liverpool Juventus(played once) Milan Atletico Madrid Feyenoord(played twice) Borrisia monchengladbach Arsenal http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1972-1973#club https://www.transfermarkt.my/johan-cruyff/leistungsdaten/spieler/8021/plus/0?saison=1972 Johan Cruyff 1972/73 vs top 10 ELO teams 1 goal+1 assist in 4 matches Overall Johan Cruyff 1967/68 to 1972/73 176 goals+138 assists in 237 matches 1.32 goals+assists per game WOW OMG lol Johan Cruyff 1967/68 to 1972/73 vs top 10 ELO teams 2 goals+1 assist in 11 matches 0.27 goals+assists per match Johan Cruyff Scored/Assisted 314 goals in those 6 seasons 3 of those goals/assists came against teams in the top 10 ELO 0.009% 311 of those goals/assists came against teams outside the top 10 ELO 99% Johan Cruyff was most likely if not definitely the biggest stat padder in football history The stat padding even extends to the World Cup where he stat padded not just his goals but his dribbles and key passes vs vastly inferior teams in the early stages of the tournament When you sieve through the bullshit you will probably never view many of these untouchables in the same way
Before the 90's, the big teams didn't face each other with the same regularity of today and the big players didn't have such a long career (with the exception of Pelé). Maradona, according to his numbers, has only two games against top 10 teams in his bests seasons at Napoli (85/86, 86/87). He can't be blamed on Napoli not facing the best, right? Cruyff has 1 goal and 1 assist in the semi-final against Brazil, and got the penalty in an individual play in the final against Germany. Isn't that a superstar performance? They are certainly not Pele
It depends on which Maradona you are referring to. Maradona from 1978 to 1983, based on the real stats I have shown, was a quite prolific goal scorer. In fact, he was the top scorer of the Argentine league four times. In a way, you could consider him something similar to Messi. In a period of 6 years Maradona generated 0.616 non-penalty goals in a team that scored 1.845 goals per game Cristiano generated 0.872 non-penalty goals in a team that scored 2.503 goals per game Both generated arround 40% of the team's goals, which they did not assist. It can clearly be seen that Maradona was an outstanding goalscorer when that was his designated role. In the following years, when he changed his position and role within the team and prioritized playmaking, it's obvious that he wouldn't generate as many goals. The "scoring ability" is something that is greatly overrated. If you give De Bruyne the same number of opportunities to attempt shots as Lewandowski, they would both score almost the same number of goals. Statistics like expected goals demonstrate this very well, as no player stands out significantly above another. Although, obviously not all players are equal and some are better than others, the numbers they generate are mostly relative.
Luis Andreuchi Position:striker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Andreuchi 1978 argentine league joint top scorer with Maradona https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Argentine_Primera_División_top_scorers Andreuchi s Career record in third tier leagues 85 goals 271 appearances 0.31 goals per game LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..OOL Lionel Messi would outscore Luis Mediorucis seasonal tally in September of the season In May He would score 90% of the goals Luis mediorucis Scored in his entire career Don’t make me laugh bro That league was You talk about Maradona in 1982/83? He was barely the 4th highest ranked player in la liga Behind guys playing for Real Zaragoza and Seville When the propaganda is relentless The response has to be crushing
Sergio Fortunato Striker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_Fortunato Joint top scorer with Diego maradona in 1979 Sergio Fortunato in Europe Playing for Perugia,Las Palmas and Favoritner 5 goals in 36 appearances 0.13 goals per game https://www.transfermarkt.com/sergio-fortunato/leistungsdaten/spieler/246709 All his caps for Argentina took place in the year he was joint top scorer with maradona(1979) As you can see he was in his peak a devastating goal scorer for his country
Only legendary scorer from Argentina in that era is Carlos bianchi(and Delio Onnis but he essentially played all of his career in Europe) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Bianchi his goalscoring record shits on maradonas in Argentina and shits on Michel Platinis in France They are nobody compared to him as goalscorers Bianchis top scoring season in Argentina league was 42 Maradonas 26 In France he completely and utterly dominated Platini to the point of absolutely no contest Ligue 1 top scorers 1973/1974 - 1978/79 Micheal platini was 19-24 years old in those years https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ligue_1_top_scorers Michel platini escapes to Serie A competing against mediorcre goalscorers and wins a bunch of top scorer titles vs nobody’s Roughly Same era where maradona could also win a top scorer title with just 15 goals(lowest in Serie A history) Platini Retires at 31 If Carlos bianchi played in Serie A with platini and maradona you wouldn’t even know those guys even existed
Whole career Goals+Assists Contribution Percentage My adjust that give assists a value of 1.5, and also add the goals against to the team's goals to benefit players from better teams
You lie about assists Lionel Messi has 434 assists in his career Cristiano Ronaldo has 291 assists in his career A deflected assist in a top 5 European league is more than a open play goal in a third tier Argentine league My adjust gives weight to players who scored their goals and assists against real football teams
Once again, Carlito raving and talking about goals per game. If you didn't understand my explanations, try rereading them several times, maybe one day you'll get it.
I heard you bro if Kevin de Bruyne shoots on goal as much as Robert lewandowski he will score as much as Robert lewandowski Kind of logic you demonstrate when you are smoking Ayahuasca https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca You are seeing things I am not seeing Clearly
"third tier Argentine league" Argentine teams literally dominated the Copa Libertadores at that time. Time in which Argentina became world champion using mostly local players. You probably don't know this, but at that time, there wasn't the same disparity in footballing level between South American and European leagues as there is today. That began with the Bosman law in the 1990s. The Argentine league had a level equivalent to any top league in Europe. However, that doesn't mean, of course, that today's top leagues are not better than those of the past. They now gather all the best players in the world in the same five leagues. If the Argentine league of that era lacked quality, then no league in the world had quality.
Harry Kane PL 2022/23 130 shots 30 goals https://www.whoscored.com/Players/83532/History/Harry-Kane Jay jay okocha PL 2003/04 137 shots 0 goals 137 - In 2003-04, Bolton’s Jay-Jay Okocha had 137 attempts on goal without scoring – no player has had more than 85 shots in a single Premier League season without scoring since. Stubborn. #OptaPLSeasons pic.twitter.com/VTfQ4nJJ20— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) April 7, 2020 Apparently okocha was as naturally talented as Ronaldinho gaucho (whatever the heck that word naturally talented means)
This screenshot is laughably disingenuous I don’t give a damn about what Argentine teams did between 1967 and 1977 Maradona wasn’t even a professional footballer for 95% of this time Maradonas scoring peak in Argentina was between 1978 and 1981 and Argentine teams absolutely DID NOT dominate the copa libertadores when maradona(and a bunch of other nobodys) were scoring a bunch of goals there That 1967-1977 time frame is for someone like Carlos bianchi and Mario kempes who scored their goals in Argentina when it was arguably a good league(by South American standards at least)
I have to disagree with you on that point. The fact that Lewandowski has a high xG is a result of his reading of the game, movement off the ball, positioning, timing and ability to finish with both his head and both feet. If you give De Bruyne the role of finishing City's plays, he wouldn't have the same sense of positioning as Lewandowski and therefore wouldn't be in as many favorable finishing positions as Lewandowski. Why do you think Aguero never had a 50+ goals season even though he played for a City record for running points and goals? I'm sure that Aguero in Haaland's place wouldn't score as many goals as he did. Both for the conversion rate and for the xG which would be much lower because he would not be in so many finishing positions as Haaland