Calendar Year Stats Diego Maradona 680 Games 344 Goals (88 penalties, 59 free kicks, 24 headers) 200 Assists (Opta) 40 Assists (Non-Opta) Team Contribution: 46.78% Including Non Opta: 50.88% Lionel Messi 1024 Games 805 Goals (108 penalties, 62 free kicks, 26 headers) 356 Assists (Opta) 77 Assists (Non-Opta) Team Contribution: 49.56% Including Non Opta: 53.19% Non-Opta assists include: Deflected assists, gk rebounds, post rebounds, own goal assists, penalties and free kicks won scored by teammates
Diego Maradona playing for high scoring teams When his teams scored 3 or more goals 153 Games 167 Goals (35 penalties, 30 free kicks, 14 headers) 99 Assists (Opta) Per 90 minutes: Goals: 1.166 Non-Penalty Goals: 0.922 Assists: 0.691 G+A: 1.857 G+A-PK: 1.613
Diego Maradona 1985/86 Attacker 13 goals 2738 minutes played 0.42 goals per 90 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/saison/1985/plus/1 Daniel Passarella 1985/86 Defender 15 goals 3240 minutes played 0.42 goals per 90 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dan.../liga/0/wettbewerb//pos/0/trainer_id/0/plus/1 Imagine nilton santos outscoring Pelé Imagine Beckenbauer outscoring Gerd Müller Imagine Koeman outscoring Romario Imagine baresi outscoring Marco Van Basten Imagine Fernando hierro outscoring Ronaldo nazario Imagine Ramos outscoring cristiano Imagine Puyol outscoring Messi It’s called delusion When you beat the statistics hard enough you can make it say whatever you want it to say
3 goals per game as in average of a season? That is something that peak Barcelona barely managed only twice in 2012 and 2013 la liga campaigns with 114 and 115 goals respectively and peak Real twice 2012: 121, 2015: 116).
It's a common average pre-1960s. If you put Maradona to play on a team that scores 3-4 goals per game, he would have a similar output to players like Puskás or Pelé But not only Maradona, most world-class players would have similar numbers in similar contexts
The above numbers are not made up; that's the average g/a ratio Maradona generated when his teams scored a high number of goals. If you put Maradona to play on a team that averages 4 goals per game throughout a whole season, he would easily generate a g/a ratio of 1.8 per game. That doesn't mean he is a better player; he simply had a different context, most world-class players would have similar numbers. In fact, the majority of the players tend to have a significantly higher contriubution % when their team scores 3+ goals compared to when their team scores an average of 1-2 goals. This means that contrary to what one tends to think, it's easy to have a high percentage if you play for high scoring teams
That is very theoretical. A lot of those averages comes from those individuals directly contributing to them if thats what you meant.
I am not sure i agree with the last part. I dont know from where you conclude that but my sense tells me that if your teammates are better (resulting in higher goals per game average) they will often do so without a players invovlment making his percantage go down rather then up.
Ferenc Puskás playing for low scoring teams When his teams scored 1 o 2 goals 265 Games 143 Goals (24 penalties) 62 Assists (Opta) Per 90 minutes: Goals: 0.546 Non-Penalty Goals: 0.455 Assists: 0.237 G+A: 0.783 G+A-PK: 0.691
Yeah, the thing is that there's actually a balance, It's harder to have a high percentage of participation if you play for a team with great players, but that doesn't necessarily mean that team has to generate a high number of goals. For example, you have great teams in the 80s that didn't necessarily generate a high number of goals, or on the other hand, you can have a team from the 40s that doesn't have such good players but generates a very high amount of goals.
Pelé playing for low scoring teams When his team scored 1 or 2 goals 355 Games 168 Goals (17 penalties, 16 free kicks, 25 headers) 87 Assists (Opta) Per 90 minutes: Goals: 0.487 Non-Penalty Goals: 0.438 Assists: 0.252 G+A: 0.740 G+A-PK: 0.690
It is not theoretical It is myth What he can never understand is Maradona was and always be an overrated finisher Even when he was top scorer in Serie A it was the worst top scorer title in 20 years Maradona 87/88 had the joint lowest tally of a Serie A top scorer over a 20 year period Serie A top scorers 1972-1992 Roberto Boninsegna 22 goals in 1971/72 Gianni Rivera 17 goals in 1972/73 Giorgio Chinaglia 24 goals in 1973/74 Paolino Pulici 18 goals in 1974/75 Paolino Pulici 21 goals in 1975/76 Francesco Graziani 21 goals in Serie A 1976/77 Paulo Rossi 24 goals in 1977/78 Bruno Giordano 19 goals in 1978/79 Roberto Bettega 16 goals in 1979/80 Roberto Pruzzo 18 goals in 1980/81 Roberto Pruzzo 15 goals in 1981/82 Serie A averaged 1.98 goals per game Michel Platini 16 goals in 1982/83 Michel Platini 1983/84 20 goals Michel Platini 18 goals in 1984/85 Roberto pruzzo 19 goals in 1985/86 Paolo virdis 17 goals in 1986/87 Diego Maradona 15 goals in 1987/88 Serie A averaged 2.1 goals per game Aldo serena 22 goals in 1988/89 Marco Van basten 19 goals In 1989/90 Gianluca Vialli 19 goals in 1990/91 Marco Van Basten 25 goals In 1991/92 I did not go all the way to the beginning of Serie A whatever year it started but the reality is this When Lionel Messi top scored in La Liga 2011/12 it was the highest single season league goal tally in the history of European top 5 leagues The only time Diego Maradona Top Scored in Serie A( in 1987/88)it was probably if not definitely the lowest single season scoring tally by a top scorer in the history of Serie A I think 15 league goals is possibly the lowest goals tally by any top scorer in a top 5 European league but it needs some looking into
I dont understand what you are trying it say. Look at it this way. If you are arguing that Maradonas goal contribution (as in percantage of goals scored) goes up when he plays for teams that score more goals then you must realize that someone elses goal contribution goes down which directly contradicts the hypothesis that players goal contribution in percantages goes up when his team score more goals. It is impossible to generalize that statement You are too narrowly focusing on the few protagonists of your story and seeing patterns in data that are not there.
I kind see Maradona as a Neymar level of a goalscorer. What would you say? He wouldnt be quite as bad as Hazard in modern times. I dont think so.
Not necessarily, if many goals are scored, the contribution as a percentage of the team's total can be increasing for Maradona and also for a teammate, because two players can be involved in the same goal (goal + assist). It could generate some effect where forwards are more decisive in more open matches, while in tighter matches with fewer goals, the participation is distributed among the entire team. That's a possible hypothesis, for example. It can also be that teams generally score a high number of goals against low level teams, and the players with more skill can stand out even more. Also facing teams with a more defensive style of play can particularly hinder the top players. But, even so, this is not really very relevant. If the percentage of contribution remains constant whether few goals are scored or many goals are scored, it is enough to support what I'm saying, which is that the context determines almost entirely the player's output. And you can see it with the actual data I've shown above when Maradona's team scored 3-4 goals, he also scored/assisted proportionally in that range. The same goes for Pelé and Puskás when their teams scored 1-2 goals. And it works the same for hundreds of players for whom I have data, with thousands of matches. In the end, you realize that "individual performance" is tremendously relative to the team. Although obviously the individual also influences the collective, it is much more the collective that influences the individual.
Percantages distributed collectivelly is "someone elses goal contribution getting higher" Then show ut for those hundreds of players starting with Messi and Ronaldo. Puskas and Zico.
I don’t make this up The players to win the Capocannoniere with the least amount of goals in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF SERIE A are Pierino Prati 1967/68 15 goals Roberto Pruzzo 1981/82 15 goals Diego Maradona 1987/88 15 goals https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capocannoniere No player in the history of Serie A scored less goals and won the top scorer award Maradona is closer to hazard then he is to Neymar as a finisher IMO Whatever we say about Neymar Jr we cannot deny he was once a joint top scorer in the 2014/15 CL sharing the award with prime versions of Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi who are number one and two top goalscorers in the history of the competition Neymar did that Neymar also top scored in the copa libertadores https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Copa_Libertadores Maradona Scored 0 non penalty goals in the UEFA Cup And scored 2 goals in the European Cup both came in a group stage game vs ujpest(???) https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/die...ttbewerb=EPL&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=&stand= Maradona didn’t even feature in one in game in the Copa libertadores Let alone top score in the copa libertadores While coming up with Argentinos Juniors, Maradona never managed to take the club to the Libertadores. In 1980 they finished runner-up behind River Plate, but it was not enough to earn a place in the Libertadores. After Maradona was sold to Boca Juniors, Argentinos Juniors invested the money collected from the sale and eventually lifted the Libertadores in 1985. https://conmebollibertadores.com/ca...s-libertadores-legacy-despite-never-featuring 5 years after Maradona leaves Argentinos juniors(1985)they win the copa libertadores but couldn’t win it with him 2 years after maradona leaves Boca juniors they win the copa libertadores(2000) but couldn’t win it with him Barcelona won the league the season after Maradona left but couldn’t win it with him the two years he was there There is a emerging pattern of teams improving after he leaves with Napoli being the exception rather than the norm Argentina was a World Cup champion in 1978 just 8 years prior Both triumphs are shrouded in controversy if we’re being perfectly frank his only top scorer title in Europe’s top 5 leagues was in 1987/88 when he scored 15 goals which is the joint lowest tally by a Capocannoniere in the history of Serie A There is not a shred of evidence that substantiates the claim maradona was a Elite scorer On the contrary he was average/normal goalscorer The Eden hazard that scored 16 PL goals for a Chelsea that finished well outside the CL spots in 2018/19 is not an inferior finisher to maradona whatsoever I’d even wager the hazard of 2018/19 is a more devastating dribbler than any version of Diego maradona at Napoli post World Cup 1986
I think I'm going to have to repeat what I said before. The scoring ability is almost irrelevant, the number of goals a player scores depends on the number of shots he take. If Maradona played for a team that scores 3-4 goals per game, he would average 1 goal per game, even if you consider Maradona to be a mediocre scorer. And the greatest scorer in history, playing for a team that scores 1-2 goals per game, would average 0.5 goals per game. You can review the data I provided above for Maradona, Pelé, and Puskás.
That's not necessarily correct because two players can have 100% of participation in the same goal, one with the goal and the other with the assist. Therefore, two players can simultaneously increase their percentage. The left column represents the player's participation percentage when the team scores 1 or 2 goals, and the right column represents the participation percentage when the team scores 3+ goals. Honestly, I'm not sure why, but there is a clear trend where players have the highest percentage when their team scores a high number of goals. Although Maradona and Puskás go against the trend. Still, I don't consider this to be relevant, as the difference is not very significant
The best way to measure a players finishing ability is to compare him vs his contemporaries And Diego Maradona was outscored by a central defender in the same year he won the World Cup Passarella outscored him in Serie A 1985/86 and he outscored him in all competitions That is a black mark that no legendary scorer in the history of football has You have treasure troves of goalscoring statistics for dozens if not hundreds of players Show me one just one player who is in your opinion a elite goal scorer and was outscored by a central defender over the course of one season Maradona was in his absolute peak in 1986 the year a defender outscored him Did passarella take more shots on goal then maradona? did he play closer to goal then maradona? Are you going to force me to pull up heat maps of passarella from sofascore and compare them side by side with Diego Maradona This mumbo jumbo statistical madness,manipulation and voodoo that you indulge in doesn’t interest me You get major points for discovering/uncovering the data but the way you interpret it is frankly complete madness
Call me outrageous if you will but I think Fernando Hierro was every bit as impressive a goalscorer as Diego Maradona in Europe peak for peak 2 consecutive season goalscoring peak in Europe Fernando hierro Defender 1991/92 & 1992/93 44 goals 1 penalty 100 appearances 0.44 goals per game https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Hierro https://www.transfermarkt.com/ferna...ler/7513/plus/0?saison_id=1992&wettbewerb_id= Diego Maradona Attacker 1987/88 & 1988/89 40 goals 11 penalties 89 appearances 0.45 goals per game https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Maradona https://www.transfermarkt.com/diego...eler/8024/plus/0?saison_id=ges&wettbewerb_id= Another defender vastly superior to Virgil Van fake but that’s for the other thread(superior defensively,in ball distribution,passing and offensively)
Two players yes but every other player has a decrease in the goal contribution. That is how percantages work. You cant have more than 100% of goals..so one getting higher means the other (except the assistant) gets lower. I mean. It makes sense that when a team scores more goals that their best offensive players are the reason for that.
Rio said several times that Van Dijk is the best defender in the world and Kompany said he was one of the best defenders of all-time. And an assortment of Europe’s best journalists decided he was the second best player in the world in 2019, he got 679 points losing to Messi in one of the closest award results ever by fewer than 10 votes, and the second best performance by a defender in the Ballon d’Or after Cannavaro in 2006 (who won on a weaker year without Messi). Then he won PFA player of the year in England voted by his fellow professionals, voted Premier League Player of the Year. UEFA Player of the Year (only defender to win award), Champions League defender of the Season. Hierro never reached this level. But as you said. This is for other thread
The problem with comparing Maradona's data is that he had a very oscillating career. Different from Messi, CR7, Pelé, who evolved over time, but remained with the same characteristics. Maradona had many problems and changes (injuries, doping, change of position). The 90's Maradona is already a pure playmaker, almost like a Zidane, unlike when he appeared at Argentino Juniors until the mid-80s, when he was an attacking midfielder and winger, like Neymar. Pelé has always been an attacking midfielder. CR7 was a tighter winger, later he played freely, but always as a striker. Messi played the last World Cup as a false nine, as he played with Guardiola at Barcelona in 2010. And none of them had doping problems etc.