2023 MLS Week 16 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by A66C, May 31, 2023.

  1. A66C

    A66C Member

    N/A
    United States
    Jan 3, 2022
    05/31/22

    Atlanta United vs New England Revolution
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (7PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Cory Richardson
    AR2: Eduardo Jeff
    4TH: Sergii Demianchuk
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Tom Supple

    Columbus Crew vs Colorado Rapids
    Lower.com Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Tori Penso
    AR1: Adam Garner
    AR2: Nicholas Balcer
    4TH: Joshua Encarnacion
    VAR: Jair Marrufo
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    D.C. United vs CF Montréal
    Audi Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Alex Chilowicz
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Sergii Boiko
    VAR: David Barrie
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    Inter Miami CF vs New York Red Bulls
    DRV PNK Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Pierre-Luc Lauziere
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Kevin Klinger
    4TH: Elvis Osmanovic
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    New York City FC vs FC Cincinnati
    Yankee Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Diego Blas
    4TH: Thomas Snyder
    VAR: Victor Rivas
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Philadelphia Union vs Charlotte FC
    Subaru Park (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Lyes Arfa
    AR2: Chris Elliott
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Toronto FC vs Chicago Fire
    BMO Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Gianni Facchini
    4TH: Michael Venne
    VAR: Alejandro Mariscal
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Austin FC vs Minnesota United
    Q2 Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Ian McKay
    AR2: Chantal Boudreau
    4TH: Jose Da Silva
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    Sporting Kansas City vs FC Dallas
    Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AR1: Andrew Bigelow
    AR2: Peter Balciunas
    4TH: Elton Garcia
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Jennifer Garner

    Real Salt Lake vs LA Galaxy
    America First Field (9:30PM ET)
    REF: Ismir Pekmic
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Kevin Lock
    4TH: Matthew Corrigan
    VAR: Allen Chapman
    AVAR: Gjovalin Bori

    Seattle Sounders vs San Jose Earthquakes
    Lumen Field (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Ramy Touchan
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: Jeffrey Greeson
    4TH: Brandon Stevis
    VAR: Malik Badawi
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Vancouver Whitecaps vs Houston Dynamo
    BC Place (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Mark Allatin
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Stefan Tanaka-Freundt
    4TH: Alain Ruch
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Tom Supple
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Debate of the week will be the disallowed goal in the 30th minute of NYC/Cincy
     
  3. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Two good no calls, one in the favor of each team, in CLB-COL. In the first half a shoulder charge on a Rapids attacker that would have been a clear red but on replay shows that it was a fair challenge, in the second a ball deflected off the side of a sliding Rapids defender and rolled up into his arm that was in a natural position in the box, also not called.

    (Also a Rapids goal taken off in the first half for a very close offside that was called correctly by the near side AR)
     
  4. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, it wasn't much contact but when you're in the air it doesn't take much. The Cincy defender was pushed in the back and that prevented him from challenging for the ball. The foul wasn't dramatic (the fall certainly was but that is unfortunately part of the game) but the effect was significant.
     
  5. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Follow-Up: Nick Cushing does not agree:

     
  6. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He REALLY does not agree:

     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At a very basic and obvious level, if that ball doesn't go into the back of the net, no one says a word. There's a clear push the back and it was to the defender who was heading the ball.

    Of course, the ball did go in the back of the net. That fact, combined with the necessary VAR procedures around a delayed whistle, bring infinite more attention to the play. And I don't think anything is helped by the fact that Apple basically had/showed two replays from the same basic angle, which was poor for demonstrating any impact. To really see the force in the push and the separation between the two players, you need a camera from the goal line or something more aerial.

    Overall, while I think the call is potentially soft in regards to the force, it seems more than reasonable and maybe even expected. Again, it's two hands into the back of the guy heading the ball and then he heads it poorly. It's 100% a foul at midfield.

    I think one of the issues here is actually VAR. If the foul is not given, it's probably not sent down as clear and obvious (particularly given that one in Toronto earlier in the year that was sent down and rejected). And we know that softer penalties aren't awarded most of the time. So I think there's just his expectation that close foul decisions like this will be left to VAR and/or only called on-field if clear and obvious. Which is, of course, not how it is supposed to work. But also maybe not an unreasonable expectation from coaches given how VAR can be used more generally on penalties and red cards.
     
  8. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MassachusettsRef repped this.
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well that’s a much better angle to make an assessment on, at least. Think opinions are going to differ, though!
     
  10. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    With the caveat that this was a hand-picked angle by the aggrieved team and also that this angle isn’t available to the referee crew or the VARs, that does look a bit soft for me. The arms don’t really extend to push off the defender’s back. Not a clear and obvious mistake, but leaning no foul here.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #11 MassachusettsRef, Jun 1, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2023
    Agreed but there is also the question of impact. If the defender has a free header there without any contact from behind, he's clearing that ball outside the penalty area. Instead, he heads it straight to an opponent who can score a goal.

    Now, is that enough to say the contact is a foul? Reasonable people are going to differ... as are partisans from this match.
     
    StarTime repped this.
  12. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we've got a decent shot at a "retroactive red card" so to speak from the DisCo for Lewis O'Brien (DC) for his 84th minute foul versus Montréal.
     
  13. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  14. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    One of the worst initial on field decisions in a long time in MLS compounded by an even worse non-VAR intervention.

    One of those where you have to ask everyone involved "WTF are you looking at?"
     
    MassachusettsRef and RefIADad repped this.
  15. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    upload_2023-6-3_10-28-16.jpeg


    He was booked for a foul in 58’ and subbed out in 60’
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd also just say one of the clearest examples of everyone missing the forest for the trees. From what I know, at least four different officials were giving input on or analyzing the exact point of contact. Rather than, well, looking at the totality of the situation and realizing the "tackle" just screamed red card.

    Given how much instruction focuses on these details, though, it shouldn't come as surprising when referees allow their decisions to hinge entirely on them.
     
    RedStar91 repped this.
  17. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  18. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Not sure where the thread for the weekend games is, but Diego Chara VERY lucky not to be sent off for a 2CT in the 24th minute of Seattle-Portland.

    Catches Nico Lodeiro late with studs showing to the back of the calf.
     

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