Yanks Abroad Flavors of the Week: 2022-2023 Thread

Landon Donovan was never just a guy in MLS and Jordan Morris has never been close to the player Landon was in MLS. Landon Donovan was one of the best players in MLS year after year. Morris has been a good player when healthy, but he's never approached that level.

Jordan Morris for instance has been MLS best XI once, and named MLS All Star one time. Landon Donovan by comparison was MLS best XI 7 times, named an MLS All Star 13 times, MLS Cup MVP twice, won the MLS MVP once, and also won an MLS Golden Boot.

Their records in MLS are not really comparable.

And by the way when it was time to go to England they had very different options. Jordan Morris went to the Championship and Landon Donovan went to an Everton team that finished 8th and 7th in the EPL during the two seasons he was.

We are talking about both the present and the future in terms of who will have a bigger role to play this cycle.

And Jordan Morris was not on a better trajectory at the age of 21, he was playing college soccer.

I never said that Pulisic was a low caliber player. But the pool was very weak from 2017 through 2020. And Pulisic in fact dominated qualifying in 2018.

Jordan Morris has in fact never scored or assisted in a qualifer and his primary scoring during that period came in the Nations League group stage in 2019. 3 of those goals and 3 of his assists in that group stage were against Cuba. Players who did not play in the Nations League group stage in 2019 include: Turner, Dest, Miles Robinson, Chris Richards, Jedi, Adams, Musah, LDLT, Weah, Aaronson, Pepi, Reyna. So yes I am going to say the talent level was much lower in 2019 than it is now. And being the best player on the team in 2019 doesn't mean the same that it does now.

That period for Jordan Morris includes 2 goals against Martinique and 2 assists against Trinidad. So not I'm not going to give him a ton of credit for numbers that were primarily racked up against poor teams when we had much less talent as a national team. Not all statistics are created equally. I'd rather for instance look at how players did in qualifying.

 

Tillman is not being developed as a #8 for Rangers.

Malik Tillman has played 33 matches for Rangers and he has played only one (a cup match as an injury sub against a lower league opponent) as a #8. He has played the vast majority of his matches (24) as a CAM in a 4-2-3-1. 7 times as an AMR and 1 time as AML.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/malik-tillman/leistungsdaten/spieler/467437/plus/0?saison=2022

 

comparing Jordan Morris at 28 yrs old to Taylor Booth at 21 is hard for me to comprehend.

Especially since they seem like very very different styles of player.

I have zero against Jordan and when healthy he's a good player and I've always loved his motor.

 

People want to write him off but he's not done. I don't know what people don't see. If he's fit, he produces. I know we're not giving up on guys for being hurt alot around here.

 

They don't spot you goals for being younger and we were talking about who went to Qatar.

 

His manager claims to be developing Malik as an 8. I haven't seen yet it but Rangers games aren't the easiest to see and I haven't seen him since January.

 

Hard for me to comprehend it would be interpreted that way. The original claim was Booth would be better than Morris was, in their primes. Morris is probably not in his prime after two blown acl's. This is likely not the real Morris, like it wouldn't have been the real Donovan, Dempsey, CP, etc.; w/ 2 blown acl's. You think any of them would overcome that to be what they were? So it wouldn't be accurate to conflate this version w/ the prior one to make an evaluation of Jordan. His prime was mid 20's. That's 4-5 yrs from what Booth is now. And he ought to step up his game a bit to project to make it there, let alone beoynd like was claimed. Morris had 15 g+a as a 21 yr old rookie and would breakout to being an asset for the USMNT. At 22 he would score the game-winner in the GC final & help rescue us w/ a strong performance at Honduras that included the game-tying assist to keep us alive in wcq'ing.

 

I don’t think there’s any argument Booth should have gone to Qatar. He started surging just a bit too late for consideration.

He’s likely to have a bigger role going forward this cycle though.

 

I agree with you 100% that Jordan without the injuries he's had was on a very nice trajectory and I would have loved to see what would have happened. We're in 100% agreement.

As for Booth, too early to tell imo. I like some of what he brings and I'm interested to see how he continues to develop. I definitely wouldn't have brought Booth to the WC.

As an aside, I still am not sure how Tillman and Pepi were left off the roster. That's my two biggest complaints for guys that were left off the WC Roster.

 

Why are analogies tough to comprehend for some people? Or are they pretending?

It's not a 1:1 comparison. It doesn't have to be. Donovan's our best player of all-time. Morris just has to be the best player, or even best producer, of a time, which you even claim was a down period. There can be a significant gap in their performances/resumes for that still to be true.

How many best xi's did Holden make in MLS? The answer is 1 - same as Morris. And he went on to best xi level play for a year in the EPL (after a trial, it wasn't a transfer), before his own major injury troubles. Holden could have been our best player for a few year period a decade later too, like Morris. If Booth achieves that level, let alone exceeds it, like you claim, it would be surprising, since it'd be a heck of a feat.

C'mon man, it's getting harder and harder to believe you're not just being disingenuous.

1. We're not talking about Booth being better than Morris, post 2 blown acl's, this cycle. Just to how good of a player Morris has been, when he controlled what he could. That's what defines you as a player. We're not comparing some hypothetical Taylor Booth with 2 blown ACL's to Jordan Morris either. Booth's career would probably be over if it was him.

2. MORRIS WAS NOT PLAYING COLLEGE SOCCER AT THE SAME AGE AS BOOTH. AT 21 YRS, 10 MONTHS, MORRIS WAS ALREADY STARRING FOR SEATTLE. He debuted at 21 and a few months. His season was almost over at this point. Morris was the same age as Booth is this season. Morris was on a better trajectory.

Again, THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF A FACT. It's a falsehood. Morris assisted at Honduras in his first qualifying cycle. And it's a disingenuous argument to begin w/. He's played under 300 minutes, due to injuries. Then half those minutes are played straight off the 2nd blown ACL. What little sample we got from him that wasn't skewed by injury, was wildly positive.

It's: ADJUSTED FOR COMP. It can only include so much competitive action because he's been so frequently out during those times. And you can apply this to everybody, if you want to push an agenda. Some of course do.

Like Bob Morocco pointed out, Morris produced against everyone he faced. That's a strength for him, you're trying to portray as a weakness to fit this narrative.

Posting the definitive correct Jordan Morris take to save you all the time:

Morris has been very effective at providing end product for the US against all opponents. Tracking data shows he is still very fast. He has yet to recover his MVP-level form and is instead top 5 W in MLS

— Bob Morocco (@bob_morocco) November 9, 2022

 

Ok. Now we need to change the name of MVP award from Landon Donovan MLS MVP to Jordan Morris MLS MVP.

 

Well, not that Morris needed to be as good as Donovan, or win as many MVPs (a whole 1, so they probably shouldn't have named the award after him in the 1st place), since for the billionth time, that was never part of the argument.

But he might even equal Landon's career MVP's this year, in spite of the 2 blown ACL's. He just scored again, and leads the league in goals.

 

link:
Malik Tillman: The U.S. international excelling at Rangers and proving critics wrong - The Athletic

"Beale believes that if he can round out his overall game to become a No 8 then it will allow Tillman to play at the top level. That Beale was willing to put him into a midfield containing Todd Cantwell, another attack-minded playmaker more akin to a No 10, was testament to how much progress he is making in that transition as he trusted his work ethic and discipline..."

In a separate article: Rangers are improving under Beale but only summer transfers will push them on - The Athletic
...Beale, though, to his credit, has managed to forge a functioning team despite limited availability. He has established a settled back four, struck a more fluent balance in midfield by converting Malik Tillman into a No 8 and has concocted an effective front three by including Fashion Sakala as a hybrid winger-striker."

So maybe transfermarkt disagrees, but it seems that when asked about Tillman, Beale has repeatedly referenced developing him into an 8, and Beale has added that Tillman wants to play a bit on the more attacking side of things, playing a bit more forward.

Maybe this is a six/one half dozen scenario, as I think it's clear he's being used more like a CAM too, but the coach has also repeatedly said he's making him into an 8 so what does that mean exactly? I think it means that he's trying to round out his defensive game so he can be a box crashing 8 in that Ballack/Pogba kind of mold, maybe.

I also think it's irrelevant long term because I would be stunned if Rangers are able to hold onto a guy who appears likely to finish with closer to 20 than 10 goals in all competitions in his debut season as a starter. But we'll see.

 

You've got the plusses, excellent finishing with one foot, real natural feel for the box on corners and crosses as well and when healthy and fully fit, superb speed.

You've also got the issue that he's been repeatedly injured at the worst possible times for his international career (his injury in '17 definitely played a role in our failure to qualify for the WC, his injury in '21 should have derailed any chance he had of making the '22 Qatar team but luckily for him did not, if not lucky for us).

On the negative side:
He's one footed

He hadn't looked the same since his early '21 injury (maybe he's finally back now, maybe)

He's made his bones as Go mentioned during a barren wasteland era for the USMNT ('14-'19)

He's made nearly all of his bones against utter ---- competition, and not been relevant at all ever in major competitions (some consider off year Gold Cup's major competitions, I do not, I also don't consider on year Gold Cup's major competitions, there's a game historically, 1, that has mattered in Gold Cups) in part due to injury (missed critical time in '18, and '21, and less critical time in '18) but in part due to the fact that look at the history there, other than the Nations League goal and an assist against Canada, is there anything really impressive in that file? Some friendly goals sure, but nothing in real competition against legit opponents beyond that Canada home beat down (the last time we played Canada well, for what its worth).

So I don't know what to say about it. I just don't see the fit. Whose he playing over? Pepi? ---- no. Wing Forwards? I have like six guys I'd prefer because they're either better, period, offer more utility or are a better fit for a team with technical players like Reyna, Weah, Pulisic, Aaronson, McKennie, Pepi and yes now tillman and LDLT etc. He's a guy for a counterattacking US team with limited options in the attack in terms of possession and technical skills. That team was the 2014-2018 team, not the 2019-Present team.

So? Other than the goals angle, which does have value on a team so thoroughly bereft in finishers, its hard to see the added value here. I have a hard time seeing him combine effectively with guys like Dest, Pulisic, Reyna, Weah, Pepi, McKennie etc. I really struggle to see it. But hey, as long as he's doing the business like he is now, I'm not going to quibble with a guy getting a call up for the domestic match w/Canada, it's a good test for him against a bad Mexico team that's still tough and will be playing a B/C at best USMNT team. But come June honestly, whose he ahead of? Barring injuries he's way down the list at striker and Wing Forward, way, way down it.

 

Dude if he finally produces that fantastic 15+ goal season we've all been waiting for (and honestly, it needs to be better than that considering what Ferreira has done and his total irrelevance as a striker (in my view anyway) and he hasn't come close to doing since 2019, nobody with sense will begrudge a call up, at that point its earned, and he should do that this year.

Nobodies inclined to bury anybody who can help.

The problem is, how do you use him and who is he ahead of?

If we're healthy we've got Pulisic, Weah, Reyna, Aaronson, Zendejas, and Arriola that can play WF that I prefer to him and a bunch of guys developing into interesting options there.

We could be looking at a January window where we have Balogun, Pepi, and Wright all coming off 20+ goal seasons, not to mention Vasquez's breakout last year at striker too.

Reyna could be moved permanently to central mid, but I haven't even mentioned Tillman who could be an 8, could be a 10, could be a striker, or a WF, and is more talented than Morris quite obviously.

So it's just hard to see where his spot is if we're healthy. If we're healthy and bringing everyone that will include Booth, and Tillman, possibly other guys, possibly Balogun, and at that point, Morris is going to have to beat out guys having breakout seasons in Europe and guys that are proven in Europe, or in Weah's case, a guy whose just a bad --- int he shirt even if he isn't with his European club.

That's the problem. He would have started at WC 2018. He didn't even belong on the roster at WC '22, and its hard to see how anything other than a total catastrophe could open up things for him for WC '26, and if I'm honest, even Copa America '24.

 

If you don't believe transfermarkt on where Tillman has played for Rangers, checkout any other lineups {Whoscored, Sofascore, ...} sites. They will all say the same thing. Rangers play a 4-2-3-1 and Tillman plays as a #10 in the CAM role.

When you say Beale has said he is making him into a #8 you should perhaps check Beale's exact quotes not someone's reinterpretation, nd the fact that he continues to play Malik as a CAM.

Here is one example:

Beale said about Tillman: “I’ve asked him to do a slightly different role. He played mostly as a striker or second striker coming through at Bayern.

“I’m asking him to be a midfielder who breaks out to score goals from there because I think it adds another goalscorer. So far so good.

https://www.rangersnews.uk/club-new...hange-he-wants-in-rangers-star-malik-tillman/

 

You've got a Morris take, and you're not really interested in any of the arguments of people who disagree w/you. I appreciate you setting the record straight about factual errors but nobody can argue he's produced against all competition.

Who has he ever scored on that's worth a damn outside the MLS in real competition? Canada, in '19. Not really his fault, if he's healthy in '17, he probably gets that opportunity in Russia '18 and maybe its a different story, but in Gold Cup '19 he was invisible, in NL '19 he had a nice little run, but in truth it comes down to one real good game (the Canada home match), beyond that, it's pouring it on against crap sides. By '21 he missed nations League, and got about 140 minutes in qualifiers and did nothing with it. He hasn't gotten many games against legit competition in games of consequence because of the litany of injuries but when he has, other than the Canada game it's a whole lot of shoulder shrug.

And at this point, okay, you believe him, you can point to the 7-13 goals per year in MLS, to me, what freaking ever, but okay, whose he coming in and replacing for you? Booth? So where does that put him exactly because WF technically can also feature in the depth chart Pulisic, Reyna, Weah, Aaronson, Zendejas, Arriola, Tillman, maybe Ferreira, and other guys I haven't mentioned. I wouldn't take him over ANY of them, or Booth for that matter.

At striker we could have Balogun, to go with Pepi, Wright, Sargent, Vasquez, Pefok and maybe Ferreira.

Who does he go over? Who you leaving home?

Wright with EPL teams in January and supposedly Inter Milan now sniffing over him? Whose sniffing over Morris since he said no to the Bundesliga nearly a decade ago?

 

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I assume you're just noting a technical fact here rather than any kind of ludicrous idea like he's in the same universe as Donovan in any way shape or form (I hope anyway).

 

When Real Madrid will bid $150M for his service? Then we can discuss him in Yanks Abord all the time. I just checked, Seattle is still in USA map.

 

If people have to resort to a myriad of objective falsehoods, straw men, and goal-post moves; you know they know they're arguing from positions of weakness. And there's a particular desire to do it when it comes to discussions to about Jordan Morris. Jordan Morris Derangement Syndrome tm.

 

A player doesn't need to be as good as Donovan to be MNT starter. As no MNT player ever was. Let's compare Morris to someone else.

 

Well, I came to Yank Abord to find out how our Yanks doing aboard. Instead of finding many pages of how great Jordan Morris is. Anyone inform those big time clubs about this?

 

The same day when they bid it for Booth.

 

Well, at least Booth IS PLAYING aboard, and he IS being monitored by clubs like Man. U or PSV.

 

The less you know how our Yanks doing abroad the happier you will be.