Is Zico as good as Maradona minus the WC fairytale?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Sexy Beast, Apr 1, 2023.

  1. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I don't know if this was already discussed, but for many years, watching videos of both Zico and Maradona, I couldn't shake off the feeling that Zico was as good as Maradona if not better.. what do you think about that?



    For example, this video. Often watching older legends I feel like they are not that impressive and that they would have difficult time translating their talents to modern time, but watching Zico, not for a second do I have a doubt that he would tear off competition today as well. Zico seems to have an extremely high football IQ and great at combining all aspects of football, dribbling, passing, shooting, pace, feints, vision, creativity,...

    He seems to be a better goalscorer than Maradona in a short time he spent in Serie A and overall. Maradona seems a bit faster and agile, flashier/creative (although that is not necessarily a compliment) and technically better with his left foot, but that's about it.

    Obviously, most of Maradona's legacy comes from the fairytale of single-handedly winning WC86 so I do wonder, is it possible that WC86 alone is what seperates Maradona's legacy from that of Zico. If Zico was lucky enough to do the same in WC82 or played more time in Europe, would he be regarded as highly as Maradona?
     
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  2. Earvin

    Earvin New Member

    Barcelona
    Morocco
    Jul 1, 2021
    I haven't watched much of Zico but from the video you posted it's clear he is not as nimble and quick asMaradona. But being as good as Maradona at Dribbling is an insanely high standard. I'm sure he woudln't struggle at all to dominate even today but intrinsically i would say that he is a class below the argentine.
     
  3. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    Yes of course, Maradona's World Cup win is the only thing that separates him from Zico and Platini. All 3 were equally highly regarded in the 1980s until Maradona produced that incredible performance in 1986. Prior to that World Cup, Platini was the highest rated superstar (in 1982, it was Zico).
     
  4. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    Zico emerged in 1974 as the future number 10 of the Brazilian national team after Pelé. It was Rivellino for a brief period, but Rivellino was seen as discontinuous, so it was Zico. Osvaldo Brandão, who coached Brazil between 1975 and 1976, said he would build the team around Zico.

    Zico played football something similar to Messi. He came from behind with short dribbles, sprints, but without as many magic plays as Maradona did. Zico's football was effective, he made a lot of assists, goals, took free kicks well.

    But Zico didn't take off in the 1970s. He did poorly in the 1978 World Cup and didn't win any title of Brazilian champion [despite being elected the best player in Brazil in 1975, he did little in that decade]. He lived with injuries. He wasn't a dominant player for ten years like Messi. Zico's explosion came later, in the 1980s, when he was part of a historic Flamengo team. Perhaps in that 1980-84 period he could compete for the best in the world. He had a nasty injury in 1985 and was never the same player.

    Difficult to compare with Maradona. Zico didn't have the magic. Maradona fans would never change their minds, Zico winning the 1982 cup or not.

    A good comparison is with Platini. Platini has the advantage of having made a historic performance at Euro 84. I don't think Zico has done that in his career with the national team. Platini ran more across the field, Zico looked more vertical. Two attacking midfielders who scored many goals, gave many assists and took free kicks very well.
     
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  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    A much better video for zico that does him justice

    1 hour in length compiled by a Brazilian youtuber

    It’s probably the longest comp available on YouTube for a player of his time with hardly no replays
     
  6. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Definitely not.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Maybe another way to rephrase the threads title is

    Is winning the copa libertadores with Flamengo and making them (at least briefly)the best team in the entire world ahead of a dominant Liverpool side a lesser achievement then taking a relegation threatened team to a Serie A title at a time where it was possible for Verona to also win a Serie A title?

    Zico looked like the best player in the world when he played Liverpool in the intercontinental cup

    Maradona I don’t think ever looked like that against a heavyweight club side in their prime

    Granted he absolutely did on the highest stage of all(not against west Germany but certainly in the rounds before)
     
  8. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Crazy to think that if both exists today, 16 year old Maradona would be choosing between Barcelona or Man City right now and although Zico will stay in Brazil until he's 18, Madrid have already signed him for 80M when he was 15 years old :ROFLMAO:
     
  9. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    Both had a short peak by modern standards.

    That was Zico's peak. Maradona made several appearances against Milan and Juventus in the 1980s, in addition to the World Cup, where he seemed unstoppable too.





    The Milan of the late 1980s was Guardiola's Barcelona. Two times European champion and a revolutionary system. Way above Liverpool. Zico didn't face that in Brazil.

    Zico won very little. 1 Libertadores title and no title with the national team. Before Maradona, I think Platini would be above for his Euro 84 performance. Zico was great, but without so many achievements, like Neymar.
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    When maradona was amazing against juventus they were not in their prime

    Platini/Boniek/Rossi were all well past it and like 12-24 months away from retirement


    And when maradona performed well against Milan it was not at the same level as Zico vs Liverpool where he was unplayable as a creative outlet
     
  11. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    We all know two times European Champion is "way above" the team that won 3 times in 5 years (including a back-to-back, not unlike Milan) :D
     
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  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  13. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Lets not forget that the 2011 Barcelona that would be dubbed the greatest team of all time after dominating Man Utd in the final was behind the Banter Era Arsenal until this happened:
     
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  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    It’s been mentioned by some experts here that zico was used as forward when he played For udinese
    At least in 1983/84 he had less then 5 assists

    It’s also been mentioned that zicos peak scoring in Serie A 1983/84 occurred in a outlier Serie A season with very high goal averages for that time

    Serie A 1983/84 I think was the highest scoring season between 1980 and 1992

    Zico was a world class goalscorer of course but maybe his stats in Serie A need some added context when comparing him to maradona

    I also think zico was a more complete scorer then maradona but the difference isn’t maybe as big as you probably think
     
  15. Earvin

    Earvin New Member

    Barcelona
    Morocco
    Jul 1, 2021
    You're a funny one. You guys get battered for 90 minutes and dont register a single shot all game, mind you I'm not talking about shots on target, just a shot but somehow we're the lucky ones and only went through thanks to the Van Persie red card...
    I mean sure, if that can help you sleep better at night... :ROFLMAO:
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #16 carlito86, Apr 12, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2023
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  17. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I didn't say that we would have gone through or that you were lucky to go through. I only stated the fact that up until that red card, Barcelona was behind. Please read my posts carefully and don't put words in my mouth again please, thank you. :thumbsup:

    My point was that Pep's Barcelona, like so many legendary teams, were not so untouchable as we sometimes remember them to be, and that all of these teams required things that are out of their control to go their way. Sometimes it's a ref decision, and sometimes it's a slip during a penalty kick.
     
  18. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #18 Sexy Beast, Apr 12, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2023
    My impression is that Zico has had more grind in a penalty box than Maradona. He would work more to get himself in scoring opportunities and therefore score more, which is a very valuable habit and skill.

    Maradona is as good as anyone at scoring flashy, spectacular goals:




    ...but there is an ugly part of scoring that Maradona lacks and it is not like he isnt "forward":



    I am sure he could score more if he had better coaching and developed a better playing style, but his goalscoring record suggests he didnt have that aspect to his game, which is a minus in my book.

    Messi on the other hand, although playmaker as well, albeit a bit more offensive minded/positioned, has that box checked, he is phenomenal in the penalty box and finding chances and I dont think that comes down to "a role" or "a position", but playing style. Messi is much more polished player..



    Similarily, thats the feeling I get watching Zico. Not just technically great, but has that grind and goalscoring awarness moreso than Maradona.

    Maybe the similar comparison would be Messi and Neymar. Neymar has never managed to become a great goalscorer but in theory he has all ingredients (like Messi had) to do so..

    Hazard is another example. When Hazard scores, he scores great goals, but he doesnt score a lot... of course Maradona is a much better playmaker than Hazard and a better player overall, but that is my impression.

    I think Maradona today would have similar stats to Neymar. Very good, but not top tier.
     
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  19. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    In addition to not having won the World Cup, Zico wasn't clearly perceived as the best player in Brazil in 1982. As several specialists placed Falcão as the best of that Brazilian team. Zico performed poorly in two World Cups (1978 and 1986) and never won a title with the Brazilian national team. Winning just one continental tournament with Flamengo.

    Zico was a great attacking midfielder, efficient, with many goals and assists. His stats are excellent Few players combined goals and assists at zico pace. But he won few titles compared to other legends.

    In the ranking of attacking midfielders in the 80s, I would still put him third, behind Platini (for Euro 84) and Maradona in first.
     
  20. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Well it is a team sport. If fate doesnt want you to win a tournament, there is nothing you can do about it.
     
    Earvin repped this.
  21. Earvin

    Earvin New Member

    Barcelona
    Morocco
    Jul 1, 2021
    I agree with the point you are trying to make, I think you picked a poor example though, because Arsenal were extremely fortunate to be in that situation to begin with. But yes football is a game of margins, you need certain things to go your way if you want to win independently of how strong you are.
     
  22. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I picked that example because @carlito86 picked a controversial game where Barcelona was deemed to have benefitted from ref decisions, so I chose another one in the same line.
     
  23. Earvin

    Earvin New Member

    Barcelona
    Morocco
    Jul 1, 2021
    Well The Chelsea game may be eloquent in that sense even in refereering was overall disastrous, but the arsenal game is simply not because of the reasons I mentioned above.
     
  24. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    Zico was a masterful set-piece taker. I would reckon him better than Maradona in that much.
     
  25. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    Zico was better than Maradona in a few aspects, such as free-kicks, passing, and definitely goal scoring. Maradona was a better dribbler and could free himself from his marker more easily. Gentile said that he liked Zico more as he was more of a team player while Maradona was more of a soloist.
     

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