What is the problem with Canada?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by LouisianaViking07/09, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Its so obvious................but matters so much.

    What's frustrating is it IS possible to develop good young players, and provide opportunities to those players, while also winning. Philadelphia is an example of that in this era. A team like Dallas in the past won the Supporter's Shield while also giving the most minutes to academy players.

    It just HAS TO BE the business plan. It has to be the focus from top to bottom. From ownership to the front office to the coaching staff. Teams like TFC and the Whitecaps used to talk the talk about their academy systems, but then not walk the walk in terms of the opportunities they gave to young players (Davies aside). It has to be a culture and mentality.

    And if you're not going to give those young players opportunities, then you have to loan them out. In Canada, that can be CPL. I like the trend in the US of loaning these young players to lower division Euro first teams. That works. Gotta start playing games that matter.
     
  2. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Alphonso Davies did get his start in MLS. And he was getting first team minutes there at the age of 15. You have lots of Canadian national team players on the three Canadian MLS teams at current. It is true that there are some players who went the college route and got started in MLS but not with the Canadian teams. But that doesn't mean those teams don't have value or that they have contributed to the growth of the Canadian national team.

    Canada is not maximizing the gains they could be getting from the MLS teams, but that's more on the teams themselves. There's nothing stopping them from being more like Philadelphia or Dallas on the youth development front.

    Do you think it would be good for Canadian soccer if Toronto FC relocated to say Detroit?

    Yes but these teams have alot more than just U21 players. Is the argument that the three MLS teams should join CPL, those too good for the league should leave, and that they should just have teams made up primarily of U21 players? How is such a league supposed to grow in interest in Canada?

    Just because one club didn't pursue a legal challenge, doesn't mean others wouldn't. There would be alot more money on the line as well.

    Anytime you are folding teams you aren't in the greatest situation. CPL is still very much in its early stages and any league at that point is inherently unstable. I don't know if the CSB deal is going anywhere but there's going to definitely be a ton of pressure on them for it to be altered given the larger issues going on at the CSA right now.

    I don't think they can. The last Gold Cup used 10 stadiums in the US. For the Olympics in 1976, Canada used 4 and one was as small as 10,000 seats (which wouldn't work for the Gold Cup). For the Women's World Cup in 2015 there were 6 with one as small as 13,000 and there was controversy over the fact that all of the venues had artificial turf and not grass. And the 2007 U20 World Cup was played at 6 stadiums, with two as small as 14,500 and 10,000.

    It would be great if Canada were capable of hosting the Gold Cup on its own. They just don't have the stadiums currently.
     
  3. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    It doesn't need to be a Final.

    He gets a Mexico-US match. It's actually probably better this way -- for one, one of us can't lose in the semis and never have the match. We had like 4 straight Gold Cups or something without one of us making it and that probably sucked.

    But also, now, there's probably a bunch of people buying tickets to both games, not just the Finals. And since it's a single ticket doubleheader, it doesn't really matter what the other game is.
     
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  4. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    You've got it backwards. Mexico has a deal with SUM because SUM is the best (and perhaps really only capable) service in the US for holding and promoting matches.

    There's 30+ million Mexican-Americans, and it's a revenue goldmine for the FMF. It's not SUM holding a gun to the FMF's head.

    It's the FMF hiring SUM to sell to Mexican-Americans. If the FMF wanted to play every match in Mexico, they would.

    The US is over half the population of CONCACAF, well over half the wealth (probably 75%+ spitballing), has more stadiums and infrastructure, and is situated smack dab in between the only other two nations with significant population. Oh, and there's a crapload of Mexican fans in the US (and Canadians, too).

    I'd actually like to play more away games, but there's clear reasons for why the locations are chosen.
     
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  5. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #6030 Robert Borden, Mar 30, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
    It would be good for Detroit and the players in that area.

    As for Toronto (4th biggest North American city), it wouldn't take long for other investors to take their place - the city-owned stadium is right there in a prime location. My understanding is that CPL views major metro areas as divisible like in Europe. Toronto can support more than 1 club - York United is already there with a new stadium on the way next to the new casino entertainment district that will open soon
    upload_2023-3-30_10-22-12.png

    I have huge doubts that MLSE who owns all the pro teams in the areas would just vacant the city. It's more likely that they'd sell back TFC to MLS and start a new club in CPL.

    While the 3 MLS clubs can never join CPL (existing owners would have to start new CPL clubs and sell back their franchise or move), it's very reasonable to say that CPL would benefit from not having to compete with MLS in Canada. That's potentially a huge transfer of resources to CPL that could increase it's revenues significantly via sponsorship, exposure and of course attendance. This means that salaries would go up and and CPL could accommodate more players wanting to play in Canada with good wages*

    *The CFL (comparable league) has a $5.5M cap - raising the cap in an environment where it's the only top league in the country makes sense.

    FIFA sanction is a privilege - not a right. All parties knew the rules before they joined this venture. Just like the Ottawa Fury, the 3 MLS clubs will not be able to justify getting an exemption when their sanction will be up for renewal. There's no legal case here.

    Statement by CONCACAF in 2019
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-fury-usl-cpl-concacaf-1.4946137
    "Under international sanctioning rules, clubs that are affiliated to an association may only join competitions in another association's territory under exceptional circumstances," the confederation said in statement Thursday.

    "As it stands to date, we do not see exceptional circumstances, given the launch of the Canadian Premier League (CPL) for the 2019 season."


    FC Edmonton were carrying huge amount of debts from the NASL era. When the city of Edmonton refused to amend the lease agreement to their stadium and denied them the upgrades they were seeking - the club was essentially doomed to fail. The league has since amended their expansion criteria and recognize that bringing existing FC Edmonton was a bad idea.

    The league has survived a the pandemic which should have killed it this early in their existence. On the contrary, salaries went up and bids are being vetted. Also, people tend to underestimate how wealthy those owners actually are. The only official number we have are from Valour FC who's obligated to disclose their financial records. They lost around $300k in 2019 in a normal season. In comparison, CF Montreal lost on average $12M a year and has yet to broke even since joining MLS.

    CSB said they are willing to reopen the deal to help the CSA but they aren't going to cancel the deal

    It's also good to point out that attendance was very high even for games that didn't involved big nations in the tournaments you mention, safe to assume it would be the same for a Gold Cup or Nations League. They can host the Nations League once Olympic Stadium is renovated or use BC Place in Vancouver which is about to get grass in 2025

    As for the Gold Cup, it will happen eventually when the demand justifies it and the business case makes sense hence the importance to grow the sports beyond the 3 main cities to create that demand.

    Looking at the last Gold Cup - Canada, Mexico and US would need their games to be played in the biggest stadiums

    Biggest attendances:
    • Mexico v Canada - 70k
    • Mexico v Honduras 64k
    • US v Mexico 61k
    Montreal Olympic Stadium and Edmonton Commonwealth

    Medium attendance
    • Mexico v. Trinidad 41k
    • Mexico v. El Salvador 45k
    • Canada v. Costa Rica / US v Jamaica 41k
    Toronto BMO Field, Vancouver BC Place & Regina Mosaic Stadium

    Lower attendance:
    • Qatar v USA 20k
    • Canada v. USA 18k
    • The rest less than 15k often less than 10k
    Montreal Saputo, Winnipeg IG Field, Ottawa TD Place, Hamilton Tim Horton's
     
  6. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Thanks for the info

    There's room for growth north of the border in terms of corporate money and media deals to make this competition more mainstream and attract more interest. For that to happen, they need to play games there too or you'll just get more of the same which is something concacaf are trying to change (that's a long term goal)

    Otherwise by that logic why bother to move the World Cup or Copa America around past 2026 if the US is where you'll make the most money? I also understand the strategy to use those events to grow the demand like FIFA did in the US in 1994. Same logic here but CONCACAF is years from having the ability to do that.

    So I agree with you for the foreseeable future but I disagree that it will always be like this
     
  7. CANPRO

    CANPRO Member+

    Dec 23, 2002
    John Herdman states after the 4-1 win against Honduras that Canada needs to play games against tier 1 nations as Concacaf won't improve our players. He's right.

    Canada agreed to shell out 400k to bring Iran to Canada last year (and then cancelled at the last second and will probably have to pay damages of some sort).

    The federation is absolutely broke and the women are mad as hell with their funding cut this year and there are public government hearings going on as we speak regarding the CSA.

    How on earth does Herdman arrange any games against good teams in Europe or South America? There's no money.
     
  8. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with you it would be good for Detroit and good for American soccer. MLSE might invest in CPL after but they'd basically be starting from scratch and the initial investment would probably be much lower than it is in MLS currently.

    Just because you have three MLS ownership groups in MLS doesn't mean the other CPL teams would be able to afford or would be willing to raise the salary cap at all. And it's not as if those three other ownership groups are going to pick up the tab. They would in fact probably invest much less in their teams, at least initially. The transfer of resources you are talking about is something that would happen over time as the league grows and not overnight.

    It's very likely those clubs had assurances from FIFA/CONCACAF when they started that such sanction would not be withdrawn given the dollar amounts involved. It's even possible they had some sort of written agreement. In any case CSA isn't really agitating to get them pulled from MLS.

    WIth a team like Montreal they may be losing money on an annual basis, but they are very much making it up in terms of franchise valuation (which is fairly common in sports). Their expansion fee was $40 million. Forbes currently values their team at $375 million. And it'd probably be more if the team was better run (Vancouver is at $410 and Toronto is at $690).

    If that's the case why weren't those stadiums used for past events held in Canada? That's also still only 9 stadiums.
     
  9. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think they have to travel as opposed to host to get those games if money is an issue (and the bigger the team the more you typically need to pay them to show up).

    The US is also looking into bringing in Brazil, Argentina, and Germany this fall. Canada could try and see if they can get the second game in those windows for those respective teams (though I'm sure Mexico will be trying to do so as well).

    Just like for the US, the Copa America is also a huge opportunity for Canada to play competitive games against higher profile opposition.
     
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  10. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not every tournament globally is going to be held in the US. But the US will always get more than it's fair share because there is alot of money to be made here. The 1994 World Cup is still the best attended World Cup ever, despite the fact that it was the last World Cup with 24 teams. The 2016 Copa America was wildly successful financially beyond anyone's expectations. So much so that CONMEBOL was mad at how much of the upside went to USSF.

    What the US has is huge NFL stadiums with lots of bells and whistles, massive diaspora populations from basically everyone country imaginable, and a population with the disposable income they need to pay to go to games. I think it's good for tournaments to rotate and for every country who can to get their chance to host. But people are always going to follow the money.
     
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  11. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    You're right - it wouldn't be overnight but more of a gradual shift. Hypothetically, former MLS owners would have to operate under league's rules although - CPL was willing to be flexible with the Ottawa Fury and let them spend at USL level in 2019.

    I think they'd want to win in CPL and push salaries up - they will never be legacy clubs in MLS but they could be Canadian giants and what sells more than trophies and recurrent CCL participation? As for the other CPL owners, most have the mean to keep up if they want.

    There's a waiver in place preventing them from reapplying every where but its for a finite period of time. Once it expires, they will have to reapply to renew their sanction and looking at who's in charge in concacaf at this time, they will get the same answer as the Ottawa Fury.

    Just like for the Fury, the CSA doesn't want the PR backlash from such a move - they will let concacaf pull the plug. In the long run, the CSA benefits by having a strong 1st division league.

    Yes, if they sell - they'll recoup their investment and probably make a profit. Same as with Toronto, it would be hard to imagine Saputo vacating Montreal - other investors would quickly take his spot and the stadium.

    That's a CSA problem and there's criticism about that too - they should absolutely start playing elsewhere, not just in Toronto or Vancouver.

    As for new stadiums on the way
    • York United in Toronto
    • Calgary is working replacing the McMahon with a new ~35k seats stadium
    • Upgrade to a permanent structure and expansion in Halifax
    • Saskatoon pending city approval - they bid for CPL
    • Vancouver FC is building phase 1 of their stadium
    • Windsor pending CPL bid approval
    • Quebec City is in the works - a CPL bid is expected
     
  12. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I don't disagree, I'm saying that it won't always just be the US hosting everything forever. There's also value in growing the demand/interest in untapped market which is what Canada essentially is. I think a few decades from now, Central America will be very different as well
     
  13. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I think most American fans would like the Gold Cup to be held away from the States. Its only held there for one reason. We know it. Money. As we know, its not the USSF that chooses to have the tournament in the US. Its CONCACAF.

    Canada certainly has enough stadia to host it. Heck, they did a great job hosting the Women's World Cup in 2015. Don't let Americans know this. More people attended the WWC in 2015 than the one held in the States. Attendance, engagement, excitement for the Gold Cup would be just as good in Canada as in the States. Central America? Not so sure about that.
     
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  14. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I think Central American countries would be excited. I just don't think the ticket prices outside of Mexico would be in any way comparable to what they charge in the US.

    The average ticket to the Gold Cup Final will be in a 60k stadium and probably cost $150-200. I don't think you have the stadia or the income levels to do that.

    There's also the fan fatigue. Toronto (or Vancouver, or Montreal) can host the semis and finals, for sure -- that's four matches (though like, consolation games are dumb) and two tickets, really.

    But that's not what the Gold Cup is. There's usually four groups with 6 games, then a knockout of seven total games (and maybe consolation?). Not all those games sell out even in the States, of course, but you not only generally need 4-5 venues, but also enough people that you can sell tickets across 30+ games.

    I'd love to see it rotate but I actually think the more likely thing to go to a model like the 2026 World Cup with rotating Semis and Finals but also some regionalized group stages. Though for money reasons, the US will play in the US, Mexico in Mexico, Canada in Canada in that situation.
     
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  15. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Apparently according to this every Canada soccer press release now includes, "Canada Soccer’s Men’s National Team are the reigning Kings of Concacaf, having finished first overall in the Concacaf Final Round of FIFA World Cup™ Qualifiers from September 2021 to March 2022. It marked the third time that Canada Soccer’s Men’s National Team won a Concacaf title, having previously won the 1985 Concacaf Championship and the 2000 Concacaf Gold Cup."

    Source is here https://www.si.com/soccer/2023/03/30/nations-league-gold-cup-summer-concacaf-usmnt-canada-mexico

    Notable because I do not consider finishing first in qualifying a CONCACAF title and I do not believe that Mexico or the United States have ever claimed as much.

    My view is that if Canada wants to be Kings of CONCACAF I think they have to win both titles this summer (and I think that goes for the US and Mexico as well).

    Meanwhile the view from the press



    Canada is a good team and could very well win both tournaments, but you'd think they'd have learned from Herdman maybe talking a bit too much at the World Cup.
     
  16. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I'm a bit amused that Sports Illustrated gets this triggered with such a lengthy article over a press release that most likely no one read on this side of the border. Quoting Josh - a youtuber? LOL
     
  17. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well this is just a paragraph in the article which is about the summer tournaments in general. But notable to Canada.
     
  18. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Eh. Its a meaningless title.

    .............but the Canadian federation wants to get fans excited and maintain momentum. Let them have their fun.
     
  19. CANPRO

    CANPRO Member+

    Dec 23, 2002
    #6044 CANPRO, Mar 30, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
    The goal this year is clearly to win Nations League and Gold Cup (GC will be harder due to likely missing a few top players, but that's reality)

    Canada didn't do enough at the World Cup. I don't want to hear any nonsense about meaningless moral victories. They need to clutch it in the big games and STFU about everything else.

    Hopefully, another player or 2 can emerge on the scene for the CMNT this year the way that Tajon Buchanen did in Olympic qualifying. Having Charles-Andreas Brym and Ayo Akinola come on when David or Larin need a sub is embarrassing.

    As Eustaquio said recently, we need to win over some more dual-national recruits to improve the program. I'd like to see Jebbison commit this summer. Herdman took his shot with Koleosho and it didn't work out for the time being. The best news lately is that Kone has turned into an absolute monster and the torch is passed from Atiba to him.
     
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  20. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kone really is a very good addition to the core.
     
  21. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The nascent CPL can have teams in the three MLS Markets, and already does in Vancouver and Toronto. Having multiple teams in each of those markets would certainly be in the CPL's long term best interests. IMO, the three MLS teams can coexist with the CPL. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Of course the CPL will now have direct access to those sweet CCL riches.....so we're not far away from it having explosive growth......

    Not sure if anyone up north has noticed, but LAFC has a new Stadium Sponsor.....BMO. Would BMO be sponsoring LAFC if Toronto FC and/or CF Montreal did not play in MLS? My point is that there is only so much sponsorship money to go around in Canada amongst the Canadian teams. The three MLS sides benefit rather substantially from playing in a majority American League from a sponsorship standpoint (and their sponsors also benefit from the increased exposure and audience). Sponsors may or may not be more inclined to spend more on a solely Canadian League.

    I get where the CSA and Montagliani are coming from. MLS didn't do much to help grow/develop the game in Canada for many years. Some of that was down to MLS not really knowing how it wanted to go forward, and also MLS just wanting to stabilize and survive. Now that MLS is on stable and growing footing we're starting to see teams really invest and take advantage of developing young players. Montreal is a good example of this recently. Vancouver has had there issues certainly. Toronto is taking a similar approach as the Maple Leafs unfortunately. That's kind of what the Toronto market demands though.

    Yes there are benefits to having an all Canadian first division. IMO, it can coexist with MLS in the same ways that the Welsh Premier League coexists with Swansea and Cardiff playing in the EF, or like New Zealand and Australia with their sports.

    While the US certainly has large markets that could use MLS teams, that doesn't necessarily mean that those markets have viable and motivated potential ownership groups. It also doesn't necessarily mean that they would run a competent youth academy either. MLS is already littered with too many teams that take a half ass or no ass approach to their academies. Just because there are markets available doesn't mean that they should or can have MLS teams.

    When the current waiver expires we'll see who is charge and what transpires. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.
     
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  22. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I agree that not winning one of the 2 cups would be viewed as a failure.

    While I didn't get why Akinola was called up when Cavallini has been productive in Liga MX, Brym has done well in the Netherlands though - he just need more confidence and just shoot the ball instead of being nice and trying to make that unnecessary extra pass.
     
  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    CPL can coexist with the 3 Canadians MLS clubs but it's not ideal as they are competing for the same fans, corporate dollars and media attention.

    There was also the CRTC ruling that Rogers communication (Bell Media would be linked to this too) have acted illegally to block Onesoccer who have the rights to CPL from being broadcast on cable TV and the hearings in Ottawa highlighting that both Bell & Rogers (owns 80% of MLSE/TFC) have forced to CSA to pay millions per year to broadcast NT games effectively taking money out of the program while CSB/CPL is giving back to the program - we can definately talk about "competition" and question if the status quo is really what's best for Canadian soccer.

    A minimum of 48 Canadians starts weekly in CPL and that number increases with more clubs while the 3 MLS clubs plays a fraction of that number - sometimes none. CPL can only reach its full potential by not having to compete on its own turf.

    Why not? CIBC is one of the big 5 banks and they signed on as a major partner of CPL and will be on all the kits while being the main sponsor for Vancouver FC
    upload_2023-3-31_8-42-26.png

    They already are spending in CPL, sponsors deals have multiplied and you have to think of all those Canadian businesses that also get the exposure in other parts of the country (over 2/3 of Canadians don't live in MLS markets) while other companies don't do business in the US. Keeping all those resources in house strengthens our own league and benefits all those players who would get exposed to better quality with better pay/infrastructure.

    I think MLS is doing great and they aren't the problem - the way those 3 clubs have been managing/handling Canadians all those years is a problem that more people are waking up too. I wasn't really MLS mandate to grow the Canadian game, it was those 3 clubs and they fell short on expectations. CF Montreal is starting to produce some young talent but they are 10 years in, same for Vancouver and let's not start with TFC.

    Also, they made lots of enemies at youth level by competing against existing academies who had the expertise and experience all along. CPL found it more pragmatic to work with most of them instead - a model that CF Montreal started to implement recently.

    Lastly, TFC decision to withdraw all its youth clubs from OPDL in Ontario and League 1 Ontario to put them in the US system didn't win them any favors with the CSA and Ontario governing bodies - something Montreal and Vancouver haven't done to that extent.

    How big or good are the Welsh and NZ league? Would MLS be as big as it is today if Liga MX had clubs in the US biggest markets decades before 1994?

    The question isn't if they can coexist but whether or not if that's what's best for Canadian Soccer going forward.

    With Montagliani winning the concacaf presidency, tough to say - he was never a fan of the co-existing situation and concacaf already warned the CSA that they would not approve an NWSL franchise in Canada and stated they should start their own league.

    The only exception he mentioned was the need for a Caribbean Super League as there aren't enough pro clubs to go around - he's right about that.
     
  24. DrunkOffPunch

    DrunkOffPunch Member

    United States
    Jul 14, 2020
    They’re bad. That’s the point. Those welsh teams staying in wales wouldn’t have made a huge impact on their domestic league. They wouldn’t have the resources and money they have now. That’s good for Welsh football.

    Different situation, the Welsh and NZ clubs are attaching to bigger markets. For sure it wouldn’t have been bad for US soccer to have some professional teams earlier.
     
  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Those Welsh clubs in English football are over a century old and if I'm not mistaken, the Welsh league started around 1991. They meet FIFA standards for "exceptional circumstances" being that they've been there for this long.

    It's hardly the case for CPL and the 3 clubs. While, TFC started in 2008, Vancouver and Montreal joined MLS in 2011 and 2012 while CPL started 7 years later after Montreal in 2019. It's not comparable at all - there isn't a century gap

    As for NZ & Australia, the A-League is a AFC league with NZ clubs while the NZ league is an OFC league, barely professionnal. Another reason why it isn't comparable you our case.
     

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