VAR in NWSL/preview in Ref Forum

Discussion in 'NWSL' started by kolabear, Feb 22, 2023.

  1. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    VAR, you may have heard, is coming to NWSL this season,
    In the Referee Forum, one of the moderators gave a great preview as to what to expect, given the wide differences in how VAR is used in MLS vs, say, the English Premier League
    Broadly generalizing, MLS intervenes far less than EPL on offside calls, but far more on penalty calls and potential red card violations.
     
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  2. Klingo3034

    Klingo3034 Member+

    Dallas FC
    United States
    Oct 11, 2019
    They using VAR Lite?
     
  3. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A bit out of context, and it's from discussion in the Referee Forum of the men's game, the Premier League, but this is so good I want to post it here
    " the officials are actively changing their behavior based on the existence of VAR"

    This needs to be a recurring motif when we talk about VAR. I've tried to say something like it, either here or on the Referee Forum, but maybe this says it better and more plainly than I've been able to.

    The next step, the next motif, is how VAR is changing the way the Laws and guidelines are written, to make as many decisions "objective" and able to be adjudicated by VAR (at least to the degree of "clear and obvious error").

    It's turning the game into a shambles. And it's going to affect the women's game as well. It already is affecting the women's game and has at the last World Cup for example. Shambles.
     
  4. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When we criticize, inevitably, the officiating in NWSL and cry for better referees, remember the problem is throughout the sport even at its supposed highest levels. The Premier League, for example, is a shambles. For instance, they simply don't seem to recognize scissors-tackles as inherently dangerous.

    I don't know how long this video clip will be allowed on YouTube, but here's an example from last week's match between Manchester United / Southampton where Garnacho gets scissored by Southampton's Walker-Peters. Though the video clip is titled "Red Card", no card was issued. In fact, no foul was even called (which would've meant a penalty kick). Instead, it's just a corner kick

    I'm not here to excuse NWSL referees in advance (like anyone's going to go along with that!), but it's lazybones to just dump on NWSL when so many of the problems with referees are much deeper and wider in the sport. The game is becoming a shambles in spite of VAR — or is it perhaps even because of VAR?!

    Here's one of the moderators in the Ref Forum on the Premier League a few weeks ago:
    We're going to kvetch about the referees. It's what we fans do. But it's nice if some fans at least try to be reasonable and constructive about it. And simply bitching about NWSL refs when the problems are deeper and affect the whole sport guarantees nothing will ever get done about it.
     
  5. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A couple added observations by @MassachusettsRef in the Ref Forum on the rollout of VAR in NWSL's preseason ->
     
  6. Smallchief

    Smallchief Member+

    Oct 27, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I'm not a referee, but in my opinion the refs no-call was correct. Watching the video in slow motion (I assume VAR has that option?), the defender got to the ball three feet ahead of the attacker and got all ball. The attacker then crashed into the defender's legs, not the reverse.

    Was it a "dangerous" tackle and therefore illegal? Yes, all slide tackles are dangerous. The rules seem murky to me and any slide tackle may cause injury -- and might be interpreted as "dangerous" -- and thus illegal. Maybe the only remedy to the frequent injuries caused by slide tackles is to outlaw them. That would certainly change the game -- as, for example, the limitations on defenders in American football to prevent injuries has resulted in more touchdowns being scored.
     
  7. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #7 kolabear, Mar 21, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
    I'm with the Ref Forum on this one. A scissors is a scissors whether or not "but he got the ball." I'm not a Manchester United fan but apparently they've lost two or three players to scissors tackles this year. If we're serious about caring about protecting players' safety, referees have to call this. I understand, especially in real time, it can be hard to see what is a clean tackle and what is a foul; I've certainly been fooled but I've gotten better at recognizing the difference and (you have to hope) referees on the field, with their experience and being closer to the play, should be able to do a better job than most of us can at recognizing them.

    But it could be a useful discussion to have and to look at examples to start seeing a good tackle from a bad one. (I mean, it's thanks to Jess Fishlock that I've gotten used to seeing what a clean "hook tackle" looks like, even though when you see the opposing player crashing to the ground you might think it was a foul)

    ***
    a couple clips of a Fishlock tackle


    First couple times I saw her making these tackles on TV, I wondered why they weren't fouls, but this is just textbook
     
  8. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm going to take the liberty of posting something here that I posted on the Referee Forum —

    Equalizer Soccer has an article by Taylor Vincent with a rundown on what VAR will and won't cover in the NWSL, whose season begins this weekend. I'm not sure if it adds much to the forecast by @MassachusettsRef or whether it provides either good signs or bad signs about how they're going about it.

    The article adds that AR's will be instructed (naturally) to delay their offside flag on close plays so as to not stop an attack where VAR-review may show the play was onside.
     
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  9. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We're guaranteed handball controversies in the NWSL because there's controversies everywhere. "Nobody knows what a handball is anymore" is a good, handy conversational rule. But some of the trends are just bonkers.

    In the Premier League (West Han vs Chelsea) this is not(!!!) a handball by Tomas Soucek at 9'24 of the highlight video with replays from closer angles ->

    This is not a one-off either. This is in accordance with their interpretation of the "support-arm" rule, which says the arm between the body and the ground is in a natural position.

    So this isn't a handball either in Manchester United vs Southampton (Reddit is safe to link to, isn't it?)

    Again, it's fine to critique the refereeing in NWSL games, but it's pointless to simply blame NWSL and its refs when the problems are deeper and more widespread. Refereeing appears to be in a crisis. (The BigSoccer Ref Forum seems to think the crisis is worst in the Premier League, by the way) And we can bitch about handballs all day but these examples seem to fit Kolabear's Conditions for Handballs Worth Talking About:

    1) No one knows what a handball is anymore
    2) I don't know whether this is a handball by current rules and guidelines
    3) This is a handball
    4) See #1
     
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  10. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Arm in natural position" = Not a Handball in the Premier League. Not even worth VAR review

    Aston Villa vs Bournemouth; 6'04 of the video highlights


    *
    This was a penalty in Champions League match between Chelsea and Dortmund after VAR review. But German referee and commentator Manuel Gräfe argues against it. By current rules, who knows?
    6'09 of the video highlights


    These are from the men's game but based on current laws and guidelines from the ruling bodies, will we see handballs like this allowed in NWSL even with, or even because of, VAR? We'll see.
     
  11. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This, from a Manchester United/ Manchester City game back in January is "passive offside" ergo "onside" = not offside



    Again, from the men's game and we can moan about offside all day long, but the tweaks and changes to passive offside rules and guidelines have made a shambles. Something like it can happen in NWSL and we can bitch about the quality of NWSL referees but the problem is deeper.
     
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  12. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another recurring controversy we can anticipate, especially with the introduction of VAR, is something I'll call "The Foot of Mané", from a tweet by soccer analyst Michael Goodman who said Sadio Mané was especially adept at getting his foot in to draw these PKs


    There's legitimate debate on this kind of play and in fact most referees and perhaps even most fans ("Sure. Now") expect to see these penalties given. A recent example discussed in the Ref Forum is the PK called in Southampton vs Tottenham. As Tottenham tries to clear the ball off a corner kick, a Southampton player comes in from behind, gets his foot on it, and gets kicked in the back of his leg. At 14'00 of the video highlights


    This may be something we just have to live with and try to accept as a consensus of referees (and maybe even fans) think this is the proper call. But it will remain controversial as it may bring back unpleasant memories, such as the penalty against the US in the Olympics semi-final against Canada
    3'20 of the NBC video highlights on Twitter

    We even had a thread devoted to this play (started by me, tee-hee!) in which the call was strongly defended by some.
     
  13. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This just was not called by the ref in a MLS game and the VAR guy did not ask for a review.
     
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  14. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Portland Timbers vs LA Galaxy? I took a look at some game highlights and didn't see the incident, nor a penalty review mentioned in the Ref Forum, nor a delayed offside which led to Portland's GK getting injured and having to leave the game...
     
  15. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There definitely was a delayed offside call, per the rules, that forced the Timbers GK to run forward and play a ball out (at which point the flag went up), suffering what looked like a pretty bad hamstring injury. About 2 minutes before the end of the game. The Timbers had used their sub windows, so had to put a center back in the GK jersey.

    The non-call, on the forward step-in play you were referring to, was about five minutes earlier. I had no complaint about the non-call, just felt like it matched the situation you were describing.

    Fan of Futbol would have been raving mad --even more than usual -- about the delayed offside call.:devilish:
     
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  16. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's disconcerting that well over an hour after the game ended, there's still no VAR replay angles available to show why Jun Endo's goal was disallowed in Angel City vs Gotham FC. The best we can tell is it was disallowed for a foul in the buildup, probably when an Angel City player shielded the ball from a Gotham player, something which happens right in front of the referee (Elijio Arreguin). 1'37 of the video

    There's a thread I started in the USA forum about the limitations of WoSo Journalism. But surely, journalists will pry these VAR angles out of NWSL for us fans, right?!
     
  17. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good, thoughtful comments by the Ref Forum moderator on the Jun Endo/ VAR intervention (but when is NWSL going to show us different camera angles on both VAR incidents including the replay angles VAR used? Do we have any journalists whose job it is to pester the league for them?)
     
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  18. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    That's literally what I have recently written about a questionable decision in a UEFA WCL match: it doesn't matter which decision it was and if I was or I wasn't right. What I point out is the principle, that I completely agree with. The VAR was born to catch "clear and obvious" mistakes, not to call byzantinisms that you can barely sort out by re-watching the play a dozen times at slow motion.

    Propos to @MassachusettsRef! :thumbsup:
     
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  19. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Again, from the men's game, but something worth keeping an eye out for in NWSL — studs to the shin in Charlotte/ Red Bull New York which wasn't carded,but which generated a lot of people saying it should've been reviewed by VAR for a red card. MLS Disciplinary Committee ultimately issued a one-game suspension to Brandt Bronico for what it deemed a red- card worthy foul.

    Now I thought I was on the strict side of how I preferred games officiated and I'm being on the receiving end of other old-timers muttering "Game is Gone", but this doesn't scream red to me even though Bronico gets the opponent with his cleats. Clearly I'm wrong, at least in terms of recent directives. But what we're saying is we expect teams to play with 10 players for 65+ minutes for this? I can think of worse travesties, but I have to wonder if this will spark a backlash that leads to another change in direction in a year or two.

    Or maybe it's always been a red and I've just been slow on the uptake (wouldn't be the first time). The reaction of the players is curious though if this is "always a red". Most of them don't react at all.
     
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  20. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    Not only was Endo's goal (NY/NJ vs. LA) very strange, but the PK foul was baffling. The VAR clearly showed Haracic initiated no contact, rather a flop from the NY/NJ striker, who dragged and dropped her feet in attempt to get contact.

    Not a good look for NWSL to start the season.
     
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  21. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  22. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It may take me a bit to compose a proper post but let me state this in plain English.
    Horse-pucky.
    Credit to both PRO (the referee association) and NWSL for launching this video series for all of us to see, but the call to disallow Jun Endo's goal is horse-pucky
     
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  23. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #23 kolabear, Apr 1, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2023
    On the Jun Endo goal which was ruled out by VAR, to many of us the so-called foul by Dani Weatherholt in the build-up looks like a standard high-level soccer play, shielding the ball while pivoting to play it forward in the attack. The apparent consensus of referees in the Ref Forum, however, is that they're "fairly confident" they would call a foul in the run of play, but they hedge about whether it meets the "clear and obvious" standard for VAR intervention.

    We can naturally argue about this, but I think it's important to notice a broader, larger point about the insidious and pernicious influence of VAR on referees, refereeing, and the game in general.

    You know the Rule of Thumb, "If it's a foul at midfield, it's a foul in the penalty area" ?

    Thanks to VAR, we're going to have to change it, or add to it. We're going to have to start asking if it would be a foul just outside the penalty area, when it means giving one team a dangerous free kick

    First: Are most referees "fairly confident" they would call this foul on Weatherholt if it happened inside her own penalty area? That is, they would call for a penalty?

    I'm skeptical but they're the referees so what do I know? And maybe, thanks to VAR, they would confidently call it, at least in a match using VAR. They may feel pressure that VAR would recommend it if they don't call it. And in the worst case, where there was no contact and the opposing player simply dived, VAR review can bail them out. So VAR potentially creates incentives for the center referee to be bold and call a penalty for Weatherholt's action, maintaining the principle, however perversely(!), that a foul in midfield is indeed a foul in the box.

    But what about just outside the box? Is a center referee "confidently" going to call for a promising free kick for the opponent? What if there was no contact, or the most trifling of contact? What if the opposing player dived? There's no VAR to bail out the center referee in that case.

    So even if a "foul in midfield is a foul in the box", a foul in midfield will probably not be a foul just outside it!

    This is messed up. This, friends, is the insidious and pernicious effect of VAR on the game.

     
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  24. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    You need to look again. There is an angle that shows Haracic clearly puts her hand on the strikers lower leg. She tripped her clear as day.
     
  25. Fanatic#88

    Fanatic#88 Member

    Nov 22, 2021
    Are coaches going to get a specific amount of flags to throw for challenges and VAR? The game seems to be moving in that direction.
    And will it be trickling down to big games in college and youth at some point?
     

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