What is the problem with Canada?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by LouisianaViking07/09, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What are the chances Canada calls him in for either the Nations League finals (assume they don't lose tonight) or the Gold Cup?

    I'm sort of curious as to how much Canada is going to use the Gold Cup to look at new guys versus bringing close to their A team.
     
  2. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Slim...Johnston and Laryea are clearly ahead while Buchanan and Zator can play there too. Very likely Canada brings their A squad for this summer
     
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  3. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Canada should bring their "A" team and play as many matches as possible.
     
  4. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There’s a balance. These guys play a lot of games and there’s a wear and tear involved that leads to injury. And you had a mid season World Cup. A lot of these guys are getting basically no time off. Just an example, but if Man U makes the final of the Europa League and FA Cup (both very possible), Marcus Rashford will end up playing about 72 games this season. That’s just too much.

    The other reason to mix it up is to develop some more depth in the program. Canada’s A team can very much play with the both the United States and Mexico. But they don’t have the same level of depth behind that.

    Of course the flip side of that is that it would be a really big deal for Canada’s program to win either of the tournaments this summer. They have won a lot of trophies so there’s also an argument for going for it when you would have a very real shot at it.
     
  5. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    When you have no World Cup Qualifiers though it makes the most sense to play as many matches as possible before Summer of 2026.
     
  6. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it depends and I certainly don't think the US should take their A team to the Gold Cup this summer. The European guys in particular really do need some sort of break.
     
  7. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    I am referring to Canada.
    USA can tinker here and there but yes I do not expect all the starters.
     
  8. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Canada has different incentives. Their last Gold Cup win was 2000 and they probably want to go for it.

    I still don't think we'll see Alphonso Davies though and probably not Jonathan David either (who I imagine will be working to lock down a move to a new club). But probably the rest of their top guys.
     
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  9. Bluecat82

    Bluecat82 Member+

    Feb 24, 1999
    Minneapolis, MN
    Club:
    Minnesota United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At the moment, absolutely nothing.
     
  10. CANPRO

    CANPRO Member+

    Dec 23, 2002
    It always feels great to beat Honduras.

    I can't believe Concacaf didnt make it impossible for USA and Mexico to meet before Nations League final. You just assume that's how Concacaf works.
     
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  11. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Montagliani was elected for another term unopposed. Not sure that he cares about that.
     
  12. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You never know they still might. It’s not as if they haven’t changed the rules on the fly before.
     
  13. CANPRO

    CANPRO Member+

    Dec 23, 2002
    Hopefully we win against Panama in the semi final before we get to be the away team with .000001 stadium support in the final in Vegas vs the U.S or Mexico.
     
  14. dlokteff

    dlokteff Member+

    Jan 22, 2002
    San Francisco, CA
    Capacity of Allegiant Stadium (for Soccer) is 61,000.

    So you are implying Canada will have 0.061 of a fan there. Good job, Canada.
     
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  15. CANPRO

    CANPRO Member+

    Dec 23, 2002
    Nothing gets by you.
     
  16. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    His members care about money. And the entire business model of CONCACAF is built upon creating as many US-Mexico finals as possible. Now it’s better for the region overall if Canada is better and can challenge that duopoly. But a Canada US final or Canada Mexico final undoubtedly means less tickets sold and lower TV ratings (though Mexico Canada probably does better in that regard than USA Canada).
     
  17. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    He said many times that organizing events in the US was important for revenues but he said nothing about Mexico-US finals being a must.

    Expecting him to tweak the rules every time to ensure that outcome is ridiculous. Mexico and the US being top 2 was bound not to last forever and it wasn't the case before the 90s.

    Turning the tournament into more of a joke than it already is does nothing to help export the product which is what he's trying to do. More foreign interest and sponsors/deal might actually get us to a point where moving the tournament around might start to make sense
     
  18. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He doesn’t have to say it, just look at the way CONCACAF sets up the Gold Cup brackets to ensure it.

    I think it’s good he didn’t tweak the rules in the middle of Nations League to ensure it.

    I’m not really sure who they are planning to export the product to? The biggest markets in CONCACAF are US and Mexico by far, followed by Canada where the game is growing but you don’t have the same level of interest in the sport yet.

    Anyways all I’m trying to say is CONCACAF very much wants Mexico US finals to happen and it definitely makes a difference in terms of the revenue produced. But also that it’s a good thing that they didn’t change the rules here.
     
  19. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    With the rise of Canada and Mexico somewhat stumbling, it won't matter that much longer, you just have to look at the Nations League bracket, this could be happening in future Gold Cups more often

    Their global TV deal is pretty thin and must be awarded for peanuts as the property isn't that valuable nor is there much demand for it. This also limits alternative revenue streams such as sponsors, media and other. CONCACAF being this dependant on ticket sales in the US is not good business long term.

    There's a reason Montagliani jumped on the Nations League, bringing in Qatar and pushing the Women's Gold Cup among other things. He also said that there's money to be made in club competition and he's trying to increase the CCL value as well.

    Staying idle and doing nothing did nothing for this region for decades and I think it's a good thing that he's trying to grow this confederation beyond being a "poor joke".

    That's the thing though, for where he's trying to bring CONCACAF, business as usual simply isn't enough. More revenues are needed to develop the game and increase the overall quality. Banking it all on just the US and Mexico hasn't done much for the rest of the confederation and there IS talent, just insufficient funding to go around to grow the game elsewhere. Nations League is good start but more needs to be done.

    At the end of the day, the US should want this to happen - that's potentially more games on the road in better facilities and quality which will feel less and less like a waste of time. That's exactly what he's trying to achieve
     
  20. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If Canada continues it’s current growth it’s definitely going to happen much more often.


    CONCACAF is never going to have a global deal of much significance. There’s just never going to be interest outside the region. The path to increased revenues is increased interest and TV revenues in both the US and Canada. The good news is that the population of both countries is more than enough for the money to be there. The bad news is soccer is still very much a growing sport in both Canada and the US.

    We’ve seen tremendous growth in the US but there’s still a long way to go. Canada is a bit further behind in terms of interest in the game, but hopefully the success of the national team helps drive more interest.

    The only point I’m trying to make is when we see things that annoy or frustrate us with CONCACAF or FIFA, they are almost always driven by short term financial considerations. Part of that is that outside of the US, Mexico, and to a lesser extent Canada, the for the rest of the federations in CONCACAF their primary source of money is CONCACAF or FIFA.

    Now you or I may be frustrated by those decisions, but I understand the logic behind them.

    We also have the problem of infrastructure in terms of other countries being able to host events like the Gold Cup. I don’t think the USSF particularly cares about hosting every single Gold Cup. But in the region only the US and Mexico have the stadiums to do so, and Mexico seems to prefer to play all their games in the US as it is.

    I think it’d be great if they played an event like the Nations League finals in Toronto. It’d probably sell out too. But CONCACAF is never going to do that when they can play in an NFL stadium twice the size in the US. Ironically the best way to get an event like that Toronto would be if the Buffalo Bills moved there and built an NFL stadium that was also equipped for soccer.
     
  21. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I think he's trying to do both. No we'll never have deals like the Euro or Copa America but CONCACAF can do better internationally if more talents are developed in this region and move up to better leagues. You need better infrastructure, better leagues, better overall standards, more meaningful NT & club competitions. More revenues is needed and that's what he's trying to do, yes we're stuck with Qatar for a while... beggars can't be choosers

    Another reason why CPL should have Canada to itself and MLS leaving it. Most of the media and sponsors are tied to the 3 clubs playing out of 3 cities while over 2/3 of Canadians lives elsewhere. We need the league to implement a full pyramid from coast to coast, otherwise you see the sport grow to its full potential beyond the 3 metro markets. The national team being successful helps but if the sport isn't available where people actually lives - you won't see much growth and hockey will still remain supreme

    Helps that Montagliani is the one who helps start CPL.

    I see the same thing that you do but I think Montagliani trying something more than just running things on autopilot, no harm in trying

    I don't think NFL can work here, besides it starts with having a strong league with clubs building stadiums and expanding them as demand grows over time

    Montreal's Olympic stadium will go under extensive renovations to modernize it and reconfigure it. It can hold 72K spectators using the 1976 configuration. BC Place in Vancouver is getting grass in 2025 for 2026. Of course you have Toronto as well.

    The Gold cup might not happen here for a while except for some games but if only 1 stadium is needed to host CNL finals, Vancouver could do it in 2 years and Montreal could easily do it post renovations.

    As for the Mexicans, you can correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it have to do with their deal with SUM?
     
  22. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don’t think MLS should ever kick the three Canadian teams out but I’d definitely prefer those three spots were taken by American cities.

    CSA could force them out but that would be self sabotage. A lot of the current growth of the Canadian national team has been driven by those three teams. But that’s Canada’s choice to make if they want to go down that road.


    Having spent a significant amount of time in Toronto I do think the NFL would work there. The Bill seem to have a new stadium deal do I don’t think it would happen. But the main benefit for soccer would be an NFL stadium with all the bells and whistles and a larger capacity that would allow them to host Nations League Finals type games.

    Does the Montreal stadium have a grass field? It’s the stadium size that matters but also all the modern touches like luxury boxes and what not.

    Mexico’s deal with SUM is why they play all their friendlies in the US. I just meant they certainly don’t mind doing so and aren’t agitating to host a Gold Cup in Mexico. It would make less money, but Mexico definitely has the stadiums to host it. Which no one else in CONCACAF can say.
     
  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Lots of academies predates MLS like Sigma who had Larin, Buchanan, Laryea just to name those or Adekugbe, Kennedy from Alberta to Johnston from Ontario. Davies from Edmonton, David from Ottawa and I could go on...

    It's a huge myth that only MLS academies developed high performance players. Others would fill the vacuum.

    There's been some drama here about 2 of the 3 giant telecoms who owns shares (80%) of MLSE (TFC being part of it) going out of their way to block CPL from being broadcast on cable. The Canadian government had to step in to force them to change course by April 21st. This kind of behavior doesn't help the sport in the country nor the CSA as they are preventing NT games from making it on cable too.

    No, I don't blame MLS - I blame Bell & Rogers. If their actions gets in the way of the sport, they should lose their privilege and abide by FIFA rules

    I recall the NFL Bills series being a massive flop. The CFL might lose in popularity within the city of Toronto but the Grey Cup still sold out with millions of Canadians watching the game - no point in harming the CFL.

    Summer Olympics games is the better way to get a massive stadium built in my opinion.

    It can have grass and the renovations are said to be quite extensive.

    Gotcha. Perhaps sharing the Gold Cup between Northeasterm US and southern Ontario and Quebec would make sense.

    Canada usually play in empty stadiums in the US, surey selling out stadiums north of the border in Toronto or Montreal makes more financial sense than Canada playing in a 60k+ empty US stadium. Not a great look on TV either.
     
  24. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don’t think it’s a coincidence that you saw the rise of the Canadian national team after the establishment of the three MLS teams. It’s about you development but it’s also about first team opportunities for Canadian players with MLS teams. Just think of all of the Canadians who got their start in MLS or are playing in MLS currently.

    What do you think would happened if the teams were forced out of MLS? You’d see all the players trying to jump ship because the the level of the CPL is much lower. They don’t really work with the salary structure of CPL either. The MLS teams could even have a legal claim against CSA for tanking their franchise values. It’s be an incredible act of self sabotage.

    CPL isn’t in the strongest shape at current either. And who knows how this CSB stuff is going to turn out.

    It’d probably be better for the US though I’m the long run. Three more MLS teams and three more MLS academies in a country where we don’t have nearly enough.

    I would never kick out the Canadian teams because they helped stabilize MLS at a time when they really needed it. But MLS doesn’t need them in that way anymore.

    I think what you’ll see eventually (especially once BMO Field is expanded for the World Cup) is Canada playing their Gold Cup group stage games and possibly even a knockout game in Canada. Canada can’t host the entire tournament, but they could certainly host some Canada games.
     
  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #6025 Robert Borden, Mar 30, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
    If you look at the latest World Cup squad, you'd be shocked about how few of those guys came from yourh level to a Canadian MLS academy. Most went abroad or were drafted by MLS after moving to the US, which counts as "abroad'

    Guys getting first team minutes on Canadians clubs was a problem until recently to the point that the past 2 national coaches raised the issue and Montagliani helped launch CPL to fix it.

    MLS plays a role like other leagues abroad does but even most Voyageurs knows that the Canadian MLS clubs didn't have as big of an impact as people think (US clubs do better).

    Results from U23 to U15 NT rosters that were overwhelmingly Canadian MLS academy heavy have been underwhelming. The latest U23 & U20 were better than usual and it was mostly CPL guys who had the better performances. First club minutes in a pro environment matters.

    They can't be forced out of MLS but they can be denied from operating in Canada while playing in MLS.

    The best players would be signed as internationals as it's currently the case. Others would go abroad for sure. Some would end up in CPL (it has/is happening). It wouldn't be Armageddon - just exactly how it works everywhere else.

    U21 do as they count for half against the cap plus they get the playing time. Vancouver and Montreal has lost a lot of their academy players to CPL as the league is proving that performing well may get you straight to Europe and eventually on the NT (latest were Bustos/Sweden, Tabla/Turkey, Zator/Poland & Loturi/Scotland). Those way too good for CPL should go play higher anyways and the rest can play in Canada or abroad in other leagues. Again, same like everywhere else.

    Not really. Ottawa Fury threatened to go to CAS and never did. USL didn't do anything about it either and it didn't stop Ottawa to sell their franchise to Miami. There's still lots of demand for clubs in the US.
    Besides, it's concacaf that would pull the plug

    So far so good for CPL, despite the league folding Edmonton and kicking out their owner, a new club in Vancouver will start in April and the cap went up. As for CSB, the deal isn't going anywhere and they secure more major sponsors like CIBC Bank for the league.

    I agree with that 100%. I think there's atill big metro areas in the US that should get an MLS club.

    MLS has grown far and beyond needing to be in 3 Canadian markets.

    Ultimately, Canada can host the whole tournament (we've hosted Olympic games costing far more than this after all). It's about
    A) Is there a demand
    B)Make the business case to convince the provincial governments that the Gold Cup is worth spending for (BC agreed to pay for grass for 2026, Alberta was willing to renovate for 2026, Quebec gov already agreed to renovations but the new gov refuses to spend for 2026)
     

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