Sporting KC vs Seattle Sounders 3/25 7:30pm [R]

Rambling and possibly self contradictory post about youth:

I don't trust Vermes to develop any young talent at this point. The way things are going, he is more likely to stifle any talent than develop it. There have been a couple young guys (Busio and EPB come to mind) that probably succeeded despite Vermes as opposed to because of him (probably most of their development came with youth nats).

Maybe I'm just salty but have there been any young players come into the team and PV has made them into an MLS starter level talent since the Besler/Zusi class of guys like eleventy-four years ago?

Part of the issue is that if you want to develop a young talent you want to get them in small chunks of minutes with the rest of a well performing team around them that can cover for them at the end of games or something. We don't have a well performing team to plug any youngsters into for them to develop and learn from. See last year for examples...

Speaking of last year, I was arguing to play the young guys last year since we had no better options. They could get minutes for a USL side or minutes with our USL quality MLS team. Might as well be SKC I guess? I don't know if that was better or worse for them to be demoralized by the results and PVs reaction to those results.

 

Ah....my bad. I didn't catch the satire. I was extra salty this morning

 

Zusi and Fontas can both take at least a good share of the blame on all four goals, having rewatched and yelled, a lot,. at the screen. Seriously, go back and watch their 4th. that's when i thought, Zusi really needs to retire, because that half hearted jog after getting beaten, again, is maddening.

 

I think Zusi and Espinoza both have plenty left to give, but their minutes need to be managed. Well managed.

As in, not playing every damn game. Both of them are gonna have their legs fall off (if it hasn't already happened), and that means their ability to contribute throughout the season is being shattered.

So that doesn't fill me with much hope at all.

 

Also, this is a guy who somehow managed 11,000 minutes in La Liga and we complain he isn't sporting fit? There is a problem here, and it is not with La Liga.

 

Not excusing it, but he hadn't played a game since May 20, 2022 before he made his first sub appearance for KC. Certainly a long period of time without "match fitness."

 

True, but he had an entire off season, plus to heal any small problems work on his fitness, which, being a pro, he undoubtably did. There is no reason he should not have been ready by late Feb.
I remember when i was "playing" with the Wiz back in the beginning. We had this workout going where we each had to come up with a different type of sit-ups to do. I was the last of the GKs because, well, obvious, but I was told to come up with something. I was into some idiotic form of training in those days, so I tossed out something that was really hard. Garth was in love with it, so tried doing extra. Messed up his back and was out for several weeks.
My point, I was an idiot to bring in that form of situp, but Ron was a bigger idiot to okay the plan of whoever the nice GK coach they had at the time came up with. who was that coach? I used to be in pretty close touch with him. I think he even had a cap with Canada? Who knows. In any case, my point: Injuries happen, but if you don't train in the right way, they're guaranteed to happen more frequently

 

For sure, and I think this is a broader point of concern than just Radoja.

Alternatively, there is another angle to consider:

So for analogy, we have four cats (I married the best woman but dude did she bring in some major feline herd action). Over the last few years, one then two then all four began to experience dental issues. We were panicking, as a) that shit costs tons and b) we were afraid the food or the water we offered or some other environmental factor was causing this. But several vets and a real-ass cat dentist type person all told us the same thing: it was nothing we were doing or not doing. The problem?

Our cats were all rescues.

Dental problems were all just tied to the fact that they didn't grow up on the right nutrients, no matter how we took care of them once they were in our care. It's very frustrating and a bit sad, but at least indoor cats can live absolutely just fine with few or even no teeth. It's wild, but I digress.

My point is that Sporting keeps signing reclamation players. Rescues, if you will.

These are guys who are available, affordable, or willing to gamble on playtime in Kansas City because things are going poorly where they are at. Often it's injuries. And for all the hits KC has had with this type of signing, from players like Nemeth to current favorites like Thommy, we've had a lot of guys who (unsurprisingly) have continued to have injury issues after showing up here. Isimat-Mirin for example.

So the question is where a player like Radoja will fall. He was affordable and eager to join, but form and fitness played a big part in that. Is he going to be, ahem, toothless with us, or will KC as a change in scenery be the place where his limping career resurges?

It's hard, because between Thommy and Walter we have 2/3 of the best midfield Sporting has ever fielded. If they can nail down that 6 with a real star, we should actually start having fun this season. But if we continue with *waves at last 14 months of lineups* then I would suggest we can expect more of the same. And that makes me sad, because guys like Walter and Thommy are far to good to be languishing on a mushy squad like they currently are, and I don't love their careers or their history with this team being marred by humiliation after humiliation.

 

Haven’t seen any answer to this question in the write ups about the game. Has any player other than Jordan Morris ever scored 4 goals in one game against the Club? I have seen most games since 1996 but don’t ever remember it happening before.

Found the answer before posting. One other time, Jeff Cunningham for Dallas in home 6-0 win on August 2, 2009.

 

I remember that game, I was there, it was Onalfo’s last game in charge. I remember yelling at him as he walked to the bus about being embarrassed.

He’s the first player since Mathis in 2000 to score 4 goals against any team on the road.

 

The feelings I had watching Morris drop 4 on SKC are the exact opposite of the feelings I had watching Diop drop 3. I wish to never have the feelings I had on Saturday again, but I'd love to see another Diop game.

 

Gutierrez was better than both.

I don't think it matters if our 6 is Marco Verratti. SKC plays without a 10 and has zero ability to attack through the middle. Other teams know how PV approaches soccer and know we only attack down the flanks. Watch Thommy and Sweat trip over each other all game as an example of what that leads to (hint....random crosses to no one in particular).

If the team wants to have a productive attack, they need to spend money on a real 10 and change PVs system. Neither will happen.

 

Hm, I don't think a 10 is really our need. For one, 10s hardly even exist these days. They get more play in MLS because defensive posture is less mandatory for success, but honestly we don't need a 10. We have two midfielders who are solid at both progressive passing and attacking the box (Walter just hasn't had as much chance to show it these days).

The problem is that a three man midfield, which used to be one man more than most teams put in the center of the park, is now outnumbered more often than not. Teams can keep us from playing through the middle because a) they have the spare man and b) wide attacks coming from Sweat, Shelton, a laboring Zusi? not threatening. Salloi has literally been our only wide threat, so they're happy to concede that space. Once we have more wide threat, hopefully through the fitness and quality of Russell, Leibold, and Pierre, then the middle opens up and you see again why Agada had a great 2022. You see again, hopefully, why we spent money on Pulido.

That's my tactical analysis. You could put prime Ozil in an outnumbered midfield like this, with at least one of his co-midfielders being a real disappointment, and I think you'd notice how little he could create.

The team needs to learn to stiffen its spine, give up more space, and utilize the three-forward system the way it was meant to be: as a swift counterattacking threat against in good odds against the defensive line of a dispossessed attacking team. In my opinion.

I don't disagree that Gutierrez may have been better than Walter and Thommy, though he was a) very often overstated as a 10, especially as his dribbling and progressive passing were nothing that special, and b) injured for half his time here. Honestly, I'd rate Feilhaber higher than all three of them, in part because his game was more complete and he also accomplished a ********load lot more than any of them did/have so far.

 

A quick look at a list of recent MLS MVP winners/contenders might cause you to rethink this (Mukhtar, Lodeiro, Driussi, Maxi Moralez, Lucio Acosta, Gazdag, etc.). All you see are No. 10s. Maybe you are just used to watching the diarrhea that is the KC midfield.

SKC's approach to playing without a 10 means they don't/can't attack through he middle. They concede that space, regardless of if they match up against a 3 or 4 man midfield.

Thommy is a LW playing as an advanced 8. He wants to drift to the left side and ends up occupying the same space as Salloi or Sweat (when he pushes up).

A true 10, like any of those players listed above, would unlock a new style of play where balls are played to the feet of the forward rather that random crosses sent to Agada who has to try and out jump 2 CBs.

Fair. BF is my favorite SKC player of that era. One of the few player jerseys I own.

 

Yeah that's what I said. You do see classic 10s in MLS still, as opposed to the big Euro leagues or nations. I think they're a dying breed at the moment. "Needing a 10" was the big cry for fanbases all over the world a decade or two ago. I don't think it's got the same volume anymore. Maybe it's just me and my skewed perspective.

I just think that as teams are investing in better defenders and managers who can organize a team, the prominence of 10s will rapidly wane.

More importantly, a three-forward system can't afford a dedicated playmaker. They need creative help from the wings and a solid midfield to keep the team from constantly conceding.

I dunno. Dinner's taking a minute and I'm hangry and distracted, so this might have been a useless response to try to write, haha.

 

Inca and Luke are right. The global footie world is moving away from the 10, but they have a last stand in MLS. Pep's concession to the problem Luke points out was the false 9, and that was PVs intent in signing Pulido, a classic 9.5. the only problem with that, of course, is that, as pointed out ealier, Pulido as an actual player is more a Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot thing. There are rumors he's a player, but has anyone every actually seen him playing?
If you play with a false 9 you don't need or want a 10.
Agada is very much a true 9, however.

 

Regarding 10s...I think SKC play in MLS right? So, if 10s are still the best/most important/most influential players in MLS, and SKC play in MLS, wouldn't a good 10 help?

The graphic below is SKCs passing network against Seattle. I wrote my comments before seeing this, which is in the Blue Testament.

It is an excellent illustration of my point. Thommy (26) sitting on top of Salloi. Shelton sitting on top of Espinoza. A gigantic void in the middle of the field, with Walter somehow functioning as the distributor and Agada nowhere near goal.

A half competent youth club coach would look at this and say "WTF are we doing"? Attacking down both flanks, with the wing forwards sitting directly on top of a wide mid. Nothing up the middle, the CF nowhere near goal, the middle completely exposed to counter attacks. Simple $hit like this is why I think PV has lost it. His style doesn't work with the players he has and he will never make an adjustment.

 

March 7, 2020. It was a lot of fun. My youngest daughter and I sat in the Cauldron and we witnessed the 4-0 drubbing of Houston. Pulido opened the scoring in the 16' with a one-time turn around shot on a loose ball on the left side that curled on the ground across the goal and went in off the right post. Those were heady times when everyone was three years younger and healthier. Memories. Sigh.

 

On your first point: Do they? It does not feel like that these days.
Esp for a home game, this passing map is embarassing, but this season they've all been bad.
I'm not sure we can say a 10 improves this mess. The biggest problem, week in, week out, is that Roger and shelton are disconnected from the other 9 players. they just aren't showing up much, at all.
I do think the map changes pretty substantially when you bench roger for Walter, and shelton for JFR.
But I think you final point is dead on. PV went to Barca and saw what they did and that it was really kind of good, and thought, we should play that way. The Pep way was simple, you do not react to what the other team is doing, you impose your will on all aspects of the game and make them react to you.
But, and maybe I make too much of this point, but Pep was running this 11:
Victor Valdes; Eric Abidal, Javier Mascherano, Gerard Pique, Dani Alves; Sergio Busquets, Xavi Hernandez, Andres Iniesta; David Villa, Lionel Messi, Pedro.
I know this might could unfair, but that's a better lineup that SKC can trot out. Messi was a false 9 (out of position, of course, still best or one of the two best in the world). That midfield operated without a 10. OTOH, Iniesta and Xavi could both have been among the world's best at that role, but instead they played the roles Thommy and Roger have been playing. Busquests at the 6 wasn't a poser playing a position he wasn't meant for, he was, again, probably as good as anyone playing in that role. We all watched that team play. Frankly, it was annoying. They were too good, too dominant.
When PV worked, that system worked because there really wasn't that much talent in MLS with the ability to rip that system to shreds. that has changed now. MLS is getting really good, and SKC remains SKC and frankly this year, not a very good version. We're getting overrun at RB, R-mid, R-wing, Left back and certainly left CB.
If our roster is completely healthy and playing well, we probably have the talent to stick to PV's guns. But this season is a mess, and the failure to adapt has been a massive problem, essentially exposing every one of our weaknesses.

 

sigh, indeed.

 

Fontas played at Barcelona for Pep. Wonder if he was the slowest man in La Liga.

 

i used the way back machine (YouTube) to watch highlights of fontas at Barca. he didn't really look fast there, but no one did for Barca. when you control the ball for 85 percent of the time, there are not many moments when you're chasing after someone.
What I did find fascinating was that i ran across several articles in which Pep and later another manager (I forget, Enrique I think) waxed poetic on his game. Pep talked about how he hoped the board would extend his contract, and the other wanted to bring him back to Barca after he'd left for, what, Celta Vigo?